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It seems you are going with the first option I suggested: "[god] is hiding himself". Which raises the question: What is the difference between a world with a god that hides himself, and a world with no god at all? As far as I can tell they are equivalent or at the very least they are indistinguishable.
And for what it is worth: for consistency we can't accept your testimonial. Every religion has hordes of individuals who give similar testimonials; despite the fact that many of them contradict each other. If we were to make an exception for yours, it would be special pleading. If we accept them all, we are in contradiction. So we are only left with the option to reject testimonials.
I also found it troubling that you seemed to endorse the existence of Bigfoot. I tried to pick something as silly as possible, so you would reject its existence. Perhaps I'm wrong and you don't endorse it. I sure hope I'm wrong.
God can reveal Himself, if He chooses so. Just not in the way men expect. God works in different ways than humans. My testimonial is hardly believable, but I refuse to lie about anything. As for the endorsement of Bigfoot, it was hypothetical. It might be possible but unlikely.
Did somebody ignite the Deepity Generator again!
@chimp3
Afraid so.
I guess that is a no on the contradiction then?
Havk Flint:
>As for Bigfoot, probably the results of a human and an animal procreating, like the minotaur in the Greek myths that came from a woman and a bull
Are you serious? Which species did you have in mind? As far as we know, the last species with which homo sapiens could interbreed was Neanderthal. We've pretty much explored the entire surface of the planet without finding any other surviving homo species. The Minotaur was a legend, like the Centaurs, and god.
Hawk Flint, you can't possibly know that god is real. If you knew god was real you wouldn't see any purpose in telling us for you would understand that if god exists and we don't know he exists then he obviously doesn't want us to know he exists, so you telling us he exists is a complete waste of your time.
The fact that you don't understand this means that you have absolutely no knowledge of your god whatsoever, you are just making it up.
You ask an impossible question. And I may actually be wrong about the proof is have, but He reveals Himself through Christ when He draws people to Him.
I didn't ask a question, I said if you have knowledge then you would have no reason to argue. Obviously you have no knowledge of your god's existence, you just like to tell yourself that you do.
You know it's a con because you have to leave everyone who doesn't believe out in the cold, regardless of how they live their life. That's fine, insist that I be left out in the cold because I have no reason to believe what you are telling me, but don't insist that you know something I don't. That's grade school stuff.
I didn't see this otherwise I would have responded to it. I realize that you didn't ask a question, and I have no idea why I thought you did. I was aiming to tell others in the hope that they may believe. I do not leave everyone out in the cold when they disagree with me, and I will NEVER leave ANYONE out in the cold. I tell others because (1) I believe that I am supposed to, and (2) they might believe.
That's why it doesn't make any sense. If you are completely convinced that there is a god which I have no reason to believe exists then how is it you are going to convince me of something that god himself either cannot or will not? Would you not already understand that it is a waste of time to tell someone that god exists if god himself does not want them to know? The simple act of thinking you can do something where god cannot makes you a hypocrite in the grandest of forms.
You missed the bit about being left out in the cold. It is not you personally that leaves anyone out, it is the religion that leaves out the unbelievers. I can be a chain-saw rapist but as long as I believe, I can seek forgiveness. I can be a swell guy but if I don't believe, I'm going to hell.
None of that makes any sense.
"I can be a chain-saw rapist but as long as I believe, I can seek forgiveness. I can be a swell guy but if I don't believe, I'm going to hell."
"None of that makes any sense."
If I claim to be a christian, but I am a "chainsaw rapist" and I murder someone, and say "please forgive me God," But I feel no remorse, and I just go and do it again, I'm going to go to hell if I die. On the day of judgment Christ will say,"Depart from me, you worker of lawlessness."
Now, say I'm a swell guy (In my, or other people's, eyes), and I make sure to live a "good, moral" life, isn't He unjust in condemning me? The answer is simply: No.
You may ask,"Why?" The answer is this: In this particular case the person in question (I'll call him Dave) has knowledge of the truth, that is, Christ, and they rejected Him. Him, the one that suffered and died for the sake of Dave. The one who took the blame for Dave's wrongdoings. When Christ is rejected, despite all His sufferings, you can imagine how offended God, Christ, and the insulted Spirit of Grace would be. If you refuse the rule of your rightful king, He will cut you down.
But does God take pleasure in the death of the wicked? No, but He is pleased when they turn away from their evil ways. If the chainsaw rapist repents, and believes in Christ, then Christ's blood will wash away his sin. Also, aside from it being an insult to a loving God, rejecting Christ is rejecting the only thing that can cleanse one from their sin. When the first humans sinned, their bodies became tainted and subject to sin and death. Their children inherited a fallen body, and their children's children inherit this, and so on and so forth. It causes us to do the things that God hates at some point. This continues even to today, and only Christ can cleanse us from our sin. God *hates* sin, and He will destroy it completely. He has to, otherwise He wouldn't be a Holy and just God. If a human judge freely let a criminal go, how could he be just? In the same way God will not release the guilty.
"But I feel no remorse, and I just go and do it again, I'm going to go to hell if I die."
If I say that I believe when nothing has convinced me and I die, am I not condemned for non-belief as well as lying? This is the problem. I cannot make the choice to believe, I need proof. I don't understand how you make that choice or how making the choice makes you closer to a creator.
You still aren't making any sense.
@Hawk Flint
>There has never been, not in all the years of science, not in all the years of spirituality, a single piece of solid evidence to disprove His existence,
Try this one.
By definition, god is omnipotent, omnscient and perfectly good. So how could the Holocaust happen? How could god's very own church sign a treaty with the people who did the Holocaust? Why do innocent children suffer at the hands of abusive priests? Why were hundreds of thousands of people, including innocent children, incinerated in Coventry, London, Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
If god couldn't stop these things, it is not omnipotent. If god didn't know about these things, it is not omniscient. If god didn't care about these things, it is not perfectly good. God fails to meet the three requirements for a god, as defined by theists. Therefore it doesn't exist. Of course, you could take away any or all of the three requirements. But I'm not sure what kind of "god" you'd be left with then. The Wizard of Oz maybe?
My answer to all of the above questions is that people were responsible in every case. We need to face that frightening truth and recognize that religion hasn't really made us better people. Quite the contrary. It's time to try to something different.
...
@Hawk Flint:
"The abusive parents strengthen their kids by making them suffer"
That is absolutely vile. How many children of abusive parents have you met? Apart from the physical injuries, which are often fatal, abuse leads to low self-esteem, substance abuse, self-harm, educational failure, and an inability to form healthy relationships. Some recover. Many never do. Many are taken away from their abusive parents and put into the "loving" care of children's homes run by religious organizations. Does that bring the victims closer to your sadistic god?
Postscript: I see that Hawk Flint has edited his post to remove the offending statement. I wish it were as easy to get rid of the perverted Christian idea that one approaches god through suffering.
....
Can we move this over to the repost, so there is not so much clutter to deal with?
Hawk you come off as someone who has never known suffering let alone war. There is no beauty nor dignity in it.
If you think that war is a means for any loving thing (including your god) to accomplish anything you are delusional or brainwashed.
And lastly about God wants to save evil too.... I think that God is more interested in evil. He allows evil to snub good out. Gods a moron.
It isn't the responsibility to disprove a god. It is the responsibility who believe in a god to prove it. I have not met one theist who has ever owned up to that responsibility, yet they decry science. Science discoveries are peer reviewed, they are isolated and tested, they are confirmed through independent sources. Science lets the outcome dictate the claim, they don't make a claim and then predetermine the outcome like believers do.
So anytime you want to bring actual evidence, and I mean REAL evidence, that will be just great. If you feel insulted, then you don't understand simple communication. If I wanted to insult you, I would have. Simply stating emphatically that your story is bullshit. Isn't an insult.
Here is a website for legal rules of evidence that can apply:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre
https://ncse.com/library-resource/definitions-fact-theory-law-scientific...
I lay it out in simple terms.
1) An observation is made.
2) A theory is derived from that observation.
3) An experiment is performed eliminating all variables to see if the theory is indeed true.
4) The theory is independently tested to see if the exact results occur (there aare at least 3 independent test by at least 3 indentdent testers, but there well be more.
5) Peer review is conducted....INDEPENDENTLY!
No hearsay, no circumstantial data(alone), no jumping to conclusions, no unverified testimony, and everything must be verified by INDEPENDENT MEANS.
The insults wasn't from you dissing my story. And if you want evidence, ask God, and you will be answered. Seek Him, and you will find Him. Then you will get the evidence you're looking for. But chances are, you won't do it. I don't decry science either, but if it hurts anyone, or kills anyone Intentionally, drives anyone insane etc., then I decry it. I admire science. And thanks Kataclismic.
@ hawk Flint
"if you want evidence, ask God, and you will be answered."
Bullshit!
That is a clear cop out and avoiding the issue. It is up to YOU to prove your god. Don't be so childish and tell us we need to ask god. That is christianity in a nut shell, shirking what is clearly THEIR responsibility.
Do you want people here to take you seriously? Do you want respect? Then do what you are suppose to do and answer questions about YOUR claims honestly and respectfully. BTW quoting the bible is a nonstarter. It isn't a reliable source for anything but folklore and myth. As for ME/US asking god to be revealed to us, that againn is just a childish inane copout. Try again junior!
Have you tried asking Him? Have you tried to truly seek Him? I quoted the Bible because there is truth to it. In some way God will reveal Himself to those who seek Him with their whole heart. You ask an impossible question, so I'll ask one: Disprove His existence.
No no no, you don't get off that easy. You prove that there is a god FIRST. For your information, most of us here use to have a religious belief. We've asked him/her/it. Don't keep throwing the bible at us. The bible isn't a good reference for anything. Nothing corroborates anything in the bible. It's just a bunch of hearsay and allegory. Most of the stories in the bible are stories stolen from other pagan cultures.
It isn't up to me to disprove YOUR myth. It's up to YOU to prove your myth.
Get off what, exactly? You ask an impossible question (as I've already said), so I asked you one too: Can you disprove His existence? No, you cannot, nor can I prove my God without you having an encounter with Him. So instead of asking an impossible question, ask God for answers. Or ask questions I can answer.
One cannot prove a negative. Any high school student knows that. I didn't make up god so I don't have to disprove him. You made up god so YOU prove him. You keep saying that I am asking the impossible. How can it be impossible and yet you claim that there is a god? What is impossible is that there is a god. Oh, by the way, F**K your god. There, that should draw him out. I've read the bible many times, and the god in that book of myths is vengeful.
Or maybe we should adopt your request.
"Hey god, where are you? Show yourself coward!"
Nope no god. Maybe a few angry theist, but no god!
Look, Hawk Flint, You can keep skirting the issue, or you can do one of two things.
1) Prove a god.
2) Admit you're wrong.
Am I skirting an issue? I have seen proof, but as the consequence of attempted manipulation of God, I can't tell anyone what it was. An oath foolishly taken stops me from telling anyone. How can I admit I'm wrong, when I'm right? Would I not then be a liar? Saying,"F*#% your God" won't do much. God is patient with men, wanting men to come to repentance. And God is a Holy and just judge, He must punish people for the evil they do. But, what is it you have that convinces you that God doesn't exist?.
Wel,l thus the dilemma. If god is as you say, then there is NO reason for anyone to proselytize or profess a god. Since god will reveal himself, then just let him do it. Since belief is a personal thing, there is no reason for YOU or anyone to spread the word. If there is a god( and there is NO evidence that there is), then if he needs people he will talk to them. He doesn't need you amateurs to go out and F things up for him, with your lack of logic and misinterpretations.
And if any of you believers start saying that god told you to spread the word, we will collectively demand that you prove it. Thus you can NOW realize that the onus is yours, and it isn't incumbent upon those that question what you say to disprove ANYTHING.
So either prove your god or shut up and quit trying to rule peoples lives in the name of your myth. And I contend that F your god does do much. I can say it in public and a great deal happens. It prompts the stupid fools that believe in a god into violence!
(Q.1)"If god is as you say, then there is NO reason for anyone to proselytize or profess a god, is there?"
(A.1)There IS since men need time to become Holy like Him and we need to be tested.
(Q.2)"Since god will reveal himself, then why not just let him do it?"
(A.2)He is revealed through Christ when God draws them to Christ.
(Q.3)"Since belief is a personal thing, there is no reason for YOU or anyone to spread the word is there?"
(A.3)There IS because God uses men and women to bring Himself the glory that is rightfully His.
Men give glory to God when they are saved, and I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone, I'm DEBATING on a forum.
We need to be tested. To pass this test means blind faith in deities. To have blind faith in deities means to ignore all the evidence that there is no deity. To pass this test you must fail the realistic test of reason and logic. The cognitive ability to reasonably assume logical conclusions must be thrown away in order to pass this test. This is a contradiction for life in general so it is not possible for me to pass your test. You are the one conned into thinking that blind faith is something you acquire through a test of some description. Blind faith is something you must cling to for your own comfort, nothing more.
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