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"The Bible holds credibility because it validates reality."
How do you know it validates reality.
Xavier de Forres - "How do you know it validates reality."
Remember he told us:
Gabriel - "If you ask, and you will, whose interpretation is correct? The one that is consistent logic, reason, common sense, and reality."
He knows it validates reality because he has set up a framework where only he is allowed to interpret it; ensuring he always gets the result he needs/wants. It's a tautology.
Ah, I see. So, why are we arguing with a dishonest person again?
Well I don't know if I would use the word dishonest; but yeah: not much reason having a discussion with someone who has adopted an un-falsifiable framework. Kind of like arguing with a solipsist.
Think about it: He's a proprietor of a god who claims to give people free will, and then says he, and only he, can interpret it. Kinda seems like he is being dishonest with himself.
It's a pretty nasty system either way. I'd like to ask him about how Moses saw god's butt according to the bible (Exodus 33:22-23). But he's already told us that when someone in the bible claims to have seen god, that they actually saw an angel. Leaving us with the conclusion that an angel pretended to be god's butt? LOL. NB4translationargument!
Might I ask what the whole "NB4translationargument" thing is about?
It's a joke. When you cite something from the bible to a believer---that contradicts something they just told you---a common response is an argument from translation. Basically that this verse has been translated incorrectly into English (or insert modern language of your choice). Which leads us to the following conclusions:
1) The believer in question thinks he knows more about the translation of ancient languages to English than essentially every expert in the field; since he/she alone knows the right way to translate this passage.
2) That we shouldn't trust anything in the English bible since apparently it is full of bad translations!
You see, when the Bible says something they agree with; they don't question it. When it says something they don't agree with, they make these kinds of arguments. Again, we are back to an un-falsifiable framework.
Gabriel,
"I say that it is more logical and rational to say that a POWERFUL and GREAT MIND gave rise to all that we have, as the Bible states. But if you all disagree, what is your logical and rational argument? How did we get here? Who or what made us?" - Gabriel
So you say. Others say that the earth is flat. Is there anything about your claim that rises above rank speculation, that makes it better than flat-earth theology? Maybe you should define "mind." All the minds we know about are associated with physical brains much like music is associated with CD players. Sounds like your idea of God violates the law of conservation of energy, which is a pretty important objection. He just thinks everything into existence. See my thread "Science Gives God the Bump!" "Evolution" is how we got here, if you start from simple cells. Sounds like you are using the God-of-the-Gaps argument. You point to something that might not be well explained, imply that it cannot be explained by science, and then insert your own speculation! I don't see any rational argument in your approach.
The Bible is a redacted, Iron-Age book (actually an anthology) written almost entirely by unknown authors, a work filled with scientific, moral, historical, and prophetic error, a work floating in a sea of contradictions which sometimes reach the level of whole books. Apologists Gleason Archer and Norman Geisler notwithstanding, such error deprives the biblical God of any credibility.
Gabriel : "To understand the Bible ends and begins with hermeneutics. Hermeneutics is the science of interpretation. But this process is a logical one. In other words, it is innate in our understanding of both sender and receiver of communication. It follows these common sense rules: Who is speaking or writing? To whom are they speaking or writing to? Where is the message being communicated? What is the purpose for the message? What is the context of the message? What words are being used and how are they defined? Is the writer using figurative or literal language? What time period is the message being communicated?"
I use hermeneutics when I "interpret" the Bible. A humanistic hermeneutics. I come away with the knowledge that the Bible and it's deity are man made. This realization confirms the bipolar nature of the deity himself. Tyrannical at times and sometimes willing to perform an act of charity. Just like any other human tyrant.
Cosmology!
Gabriel : "I say that it is more logical and rational to say that a POWERFUL and GREAT MIND gave rise to all that we have, as the Bible states. But if you all disagree, what is your logical and rational argument?"
I am not convinced. The physicists explanations are out there for all to study. The universe and life are natural events and god is not required. It is more logical and rational to assert a material universe without the necessity of a creator. No use repeating everything that Einstein and Hawking's have asserted in this little thread. Taking into account the volumes of scientific evidence for a natural cosmology I believe my counter claim holds more weight than your unfalsifiable one.
@ Gabriel.
I'm a bit pressed for time. I'll have to get back to you in a day or so.
Religious experiences can apparently be generated by electromagnetic fields. Google God helmet, Persinger, Koren helmet. Subjects in these experiments reported changed states of consciousness, and other presences, which they interpreted as ghosts and angels. Maybe these so-called relationships with god are simply the result of altered states that occur when the complex computer behind our eyes is damaged or exposed to random forces in nature.
To say that one has a relationship with God is to say that one is walking in obedience to His commands, and while there are some people who have schizophrenia (and some who use "God told me so" as an excuse), some people have actually heard His voice. God can be heard in more than an audible voice, like bible verses, music, random thoughts, etc. And if anyone knows how to change pictures, please tell me how.
When ever anyone tries to tell me that god has a message for me I try to move further away.
For that matter, anyone who trys to pursue me is threatened ith a lawsuit.
What do you mean "pursue"?
pur·sue
pərˈso͞o/
verb
1.
follow (someone or something) in order to catch or attack them.
"the officer pursued the van"
synonyms: follow, run after, chase
Hawk Flint,
"...some people have actually heard His voice. God can be heard in more than an audible voice, like bible verses, music, random thoughts, etc." - Hawk Flint
That appears to be an unsubstantiated opinion. Anecdotal stories are worthless as scientific evidence for very good reasons. I suspect that you are saying that many people perceive what they interpret to be God's actions in various ways. I have no problem with that. If they are intended as evidence for God's existence, then they must pass serious scientific investigation. Any Muslim, Hindu or (you-name-it) has their own "proof" stories.
I agree. Many people could say,"God did that. It's proof." when in fact it was a random occurrence. However, obedience to Gods commands is the only sure evidence that one has fellowship with Him. Of course, others could say the same about their own religions.
@ Hawk Flint
No there isn't. No one really hears the voice of a god. I put it to YOU Hawk Flint to PROVE
1) That there is a god
2) That he talks to people
3) You know how many complete strangers say the same shit that those old people supposedly said to you say to me? A great number of people. That isn't the voice of god. It's just some nuts spreading bullshit.
You people (theist) really get me. I mean you make such arbitrary claims that are so ridiculous. You jump to conclusions. You attribute things to a god with absolutely no proof whatsoever, and then you get mad when we don't believe you.
Instead of worrying about changing your picture, you should worry about learning how to think critically. No one gives a rats ass about your picture.
Just think about your claim here. You said "I was on the beach, and three old people came up to a relative of mine, and told them,"It's going to be hard, but God wants you to know that you're coming to a place where you are going to be happy." These old people never knew us, and my relative hadn't told them anything nor had we seen them before." Now how is that proof that a god said anything? The strangers are SAYING that god wants you to know. That is hearsay at best. At worst, it's just a bunch of people repeating what some fired up evangelist told them and they are repeating it.
First of all, I spoke from experience (though some people could claim they heard God speaking to them through a song or whatever even though He didn't). Second, the old people came out of the blue, and yes I realize that this could be a very well placed random event. Third, I don't get upset when people don't believe me, but I do get upset when people INSULT me without reason. Fourth, you can't disprove God's existence (yes I know about the spaghetti monster stupidity). And last, I want to change my pic. -_<
Hawk Flint,
No doubt you had some kind of experience. What we question is your interpretation of it. As for God's existence, see my thread "Science Gives God The Bump!"
@ Hawk Flint
I don't doubt that people have had religious experiences. I quote myself from an earlier post:
We humans seems to have a tendency to anthropomorphize everything around us, and we have various psychological defence mechanisms we utilize: denial, dissociation, confabulation, compartmentalization, projection, repression, displacement, rationalization and so on.
With all these mechanisms in place, the question becomes:
How do you suppose a person who has a dramatic inner event, like a salvation, could differentiate an actual such event from a psychological event like a hallucination?
Spiritual Witnesses - A video showing several different people from different religions who are convinced beyond doubt that their religion is true.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJMSU8Qj6Go&feature=youtu.be&t=46
Hawk Flint - "Fourth, you can't disprove God's existence"
How is that an argument? You can't disprove that I have 7.5 heads and am the ruler of Mars.
It's a statement, not an argument. Atheists ask us to prove our God's existence, without disproving His existence. There has never been, not in all the years of science, not in all the years of spirituality, a single piece of solid evidence to disprove His existence, and I don't believe God is real, I know He's is real. That is why I'm still a christian. I would have denied the faith had I not known that He was real, some atheistic arguments are really convincing.
@ Hawk Flint
Actually, theists are claiming there is a god.
Most atheists are not making a claim, we are asking: Where is the proof?
Do you believe in leprechauns? Do you believe in The Chimera? No? But you can't disprove their existence?
The burden of proof is on the claimant, it's as simple as that.
If I claim that Leprechauns exists, others will want proof. Or would you just take my word for it?
@ Hawk Flint
Disregarding the proof-of-god discussion, I would instead like to ask you:
- How sure are you of your gods existence, 50%, 95%?
Without proof, I'd be an atheist.
Hawk Flint - "There has never been...a single piece of solid evidence to disprove [God's] existence..."
I should have my head examined, but you seem like a pretty honest dude, so I'm willing to go the extra mile here:
I want you to pretend you live in a world where there is no god. Now I want you to think of some theoretical evidence that would disprove his existence. I mean, just make up the result of any experiment you want or whatever. Could you please tell us what this would be?
The point here is that I don't think there could be such a disproof; regardless if god exists or not. This is why we have complained so bitterly about you suggesting we haven't disproved god; it isn't possible to disprove god, even in a world where you know he doesn't exist. You might also notice it is impossible to disprove: Bigfoot, alien abductions, the Loch Ness monster, homoeopathy, and acupuncture; just to name a few. Is this really the kind of silly stuff you want your god associated with? Because that is exactly what you are doing when you make that statement.
On the other hand, if god exists; then either he is hiding himself (just like Bigfoot, aliens, Loch Ness monster, etc) or there is some evidence for his existence. You see when we ask you for evidence (some people say proof) we are providing you with an opportunity to distinguish your belief from the other loads of non-sense we hear everyday (Bigfoot, etc, etc). When we see you make repeated statements that no one has disproved god; we take that as you trying to protect your beliefs by making an impossible demand on those who are critical of it; just like the Bigfoot people. True beliefs don't need protection.
I can't tell of how I know God is real, that is the consequence of my attempted manipulation of God, I am forbidden by an oath that I've taken. So I can offer no proof beyond what I've already said. As for Bigfoot, probably the results of a human and an animal procreating, like the minotaur in the Greek myths that came from a woman and a bull. Aliens...I don't know if they actually abduct anyone, it's possible that people are just lying, but I don't know. If they are real, then it's possible that (1) God created them, (2)they are the gods being worshipped today, or (3) they are demons who left their spiritual state (Which is written in the bible). I realize I am making an impossible demand, but atheists are doing the same thing. And I thank you for your willingness to go the extra mile.
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