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Gabriel - "Actually the Bible teaches that God doesn't speak to man today"
Kind of along the lines of:
"If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia" - Thomas Szasz
Gabriel, have you anything to corroborate what is written in that book?
Ladies and gents,
You all are making assumptions about me without picking my brain to what I actually believe. Interesting that "atheists" champion themselves as the great investigators of knowledge and truth, but in this case have unleashed the hounds of damnation to someone they don't even know. I began by saying that I agreed with your assertion that God doesn't speak to people and those who say they do are schizophrenic. All I stated was the Bible validates that claim and gave Scriptures to prove it. I said that people who use the Bible to make that claim are in error and deluded. The problem is with the interpretation and beliefs of men, who make claims that cannot be supported by logic and reason. And this is something that most atheists don't know about the Bible, God champions logic and reason for believing in things. Isaiah 1:18, God said, "Come let us reason together...." and then in Deut. 13 God tells the nation of Israel not to believe everything they are told and see, but to investigate matters (Deut. 17:1-4). In the New Testament, we are told that faith comes by evidence, not by feelings or testimony (Heb.11:1). Of course I would love to begin dialogue with anyone, this is why I entered the fray of discussion. The problem is not with the Bible or religion, rather misinterpretations giving rise to false ideologies, which false religions have emanated from. Your beef is with these people, as I am. I am not your enemy, rather I fight against the same things. But I do it with the the truth of the Scriptures.
I'm sorry, but unless I make this reply and they read, they will probably skim your comment carelessly and carry on in their way, as this seems to be what they do when new posts are created making only light initial propositions. Be warned that you may not have come to the right place for a calm and mannered debate.
WRONG!!!!! Dead wrong! Try again!
Ah, irony of the purest kind. Thanks to everyone else, anyway.
Gabriel - "Interesting that "atheists" champion themselves as the great investigators of knowledge and truth, but in this case have unleashed the hounds of damnation to someone they don't even know."
So far you've been treated with kid gloves. But I doubt that is going to last.
Also, I hate to be so pessimistic, but you are going to need something stronger than what you have so far if you seek a large audience with ears. I understand that you are attempting to explain that you might be rational in an argument, but you ought to avoid the pitfalls of irony in doing so, as these will eat you alive on this forum irrespective to whether they are logically relevant to the validity and soundness of the propositions made. Finally, appeals to pathos seem to go a long way here, so try to combat with appeals to ethos that they will respect.
I hold that gods existence would be derrogitry to humanity. If he exists, I'm finding a way to leave, if I have to fund the entire space program.
Gabriel, I will ask once again since you continue to use quotes from that book to prop up your position: have you anything to corroborate said position beyond that book?
@ Gabriel
The real problem with your initial posts are that you say that you are a Christian, then you gave some quotes from the Bible. Regardless if you think that a lot of people make incorrect interpretations or if you think that the Bible is the literal word of god, you give merit to the Bible as a source of truth, a reason to believe. Am I correct?
Speaking for myself, I can't understand why some people trust any "holy" writings, and the Bible is no exception. If you look at every supernatural claim in these holy writings, there is no corroboration, no credibility. So regardless of interpretation (for which there is no shortage of variants), start with the Bible itself.
A couple of starting questions:
- What denomination do you adhere to?
- If you do think the Bible contains some truth, what makes you think the Bible has any credibility?
Gabriel : I do not believe Jesus Christ ever existed. He is a mythological being only. No words from scripture amount to evidence for the contrary. No more so than the Norse myths amount to evidence for the Frost Giants.
If this is the best that this forum possesses - all bark and no bite - then this is going to be fun rationalizing and taking apart, what has been so far, no logical arguments given. M.V. Reeves, I can handle myself and don't need to be lectured in how to handle my business. This isn't my first rodeo, especially with apparent novices who can only offer ad hominem attacks, mocking language, and sophomoric arguments.
Here is why the God of the Bible exists. (1) God is a logical necessity. When we consider nature and it's fine tuning principles, this logically necessitates Someone or Something greater to have given it its properties. The problem with atheist's thought process is, they deny this logical necessity based on fallacious comments from FALSE RELIGIONS who purport and do things contrary to what is logical. For example, God doesn't work miracles today, nor does He move me in any way, or even speaks to man today. God established a world governed by physical law and this is what we experience in life. (2) The God of the Bible exists because everything that it says of God is comfirmed by the reality of nature. For example, the Bible teaches us that God is MIND (Jn. 4:24) and INVISIBLE (1 Tim. 6:16). God isn't a physical being (Num.23:19). Why is this important to note, because we know scientifically that matter decays and erodes; therefore, it would make sense that the Creator of this world is metaphysical. The problem with history is we've had several cultures and false religions who have cited God as a physical being, of which He is not. Now, let me preempt the novices' arguments who will inevitably say, "But the Bible says that God has arms, a face, and hands!" Wrong! Because people, especially atheists are ignorant of God's word, they don't know that God HAS ALWAYS USED representatives to speak on His behalf and "angels" we're used to represent Him. According to the Bible angels resemble man (Matt. 22:30) and therefore, when God is said to have human appendages, these were those of angelic representatives.
Let's begin with these two arguments.
Gabriel - "God doesn't work miracles today, nor does He move me in any way, or even speaks to man today"
Gabriel - "... God is MIND... and INVISIBLE ... isn't a physical being...."
So you have set up a framework where there can't be any evidence for the existence of god. Do you really think that is the best way to convince us?
And, again, he is using the Bible. Your failing the spot checks already, Gabriel.
@ Gabriel
As usual, the obvious and the hard questions are ignored.
My questions were:
- What denomination do you adhere to?
- If you do think the Bible contains some truth, what makes you think the Bible has any credibility?
The first should be very easy for you to answer, if you belong to a denomination. What denomination you adhere to, helps narrowing down what variant of god you are actually arguing for. The second is harder, and I think you ignored it because of that.
"If this is the best that this forum possesses - all bark and no bite - then this is going to be fun rationalizing and taking apart"
Now that's not just a little bit arrogant.
(1)
"God is a logical necessity. When we consider nature and it's fine tuning principles, this logically necessitates Someone or Something greater to have given it its properties."
You could give the usual philosophical "proof" that this is correct. But this kind of philosophical argument has been chewed on since the time of Thomas Aquinas. It holds no water what so ever, and even if it did it is only a philosophical conclusion, nothing more.
"God doesn't work miracles today, nor does He move me in any way, or even speaks to man today."
You are presenting this as if you know it to be true. How do you know this? What credible source of information did this come from? Have you spoken to god and he told you this?
(2)
"The God of the Bible exists because everything that it says of God is comfirmed by the reality of nature."
"God is MIND ... INVISIBLE ... God isn't a physical being"
Wait, what? Nothing, and I mean nothing confirms the god of the Christian Bible.
Are you actually arguing that the absence of traits in god, is confirmation because we do not see any evidence for these missing traits?!
"Why is this important to note, because we know scientifically that matter decays and erodes; therefore, it would make sense that the Creator of this world is metaphysical."
Metaphysical, as in theoretical and abstract, sure. Metaphysics is pretending, not a scientific claim as you seem to try to use it.
"Now, let me preempt the novices' arguments who will inevitably say, "But the Bible says that God has arms, a face, and hands!" Wrong!"
I don't care what the Bible says at all, since it has no validity, no credibility, no corroboration.
"Because people, especially atheists are ignorant of God's word"
Really? Now that I didn't know. Can you show a source for that assumption? Here's mine that proves the opposite:
http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey/
"According to the Bible angels resemble man..."
You keep trying to use the Bible as "evidence", but you haven't even answered my question yet:
- What makes you think the Bible has any credibility?
OH!! I so LOVE the false religions argument! It's like having a stack of counterfeit bills but no authoritative process for determining the legitimate ones. All you have to do is peel one off and say, "This one is good because it says so right on the front."
If this is the case then I think Mafdet is the only true god. I use the fact that men destroy while women create as the basis for my beliefs and evidence that god is female. Your Jesus is a false idol.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafdet
LoL, long live Mafdet!
Did you notice that combined with his further claims that you have to be special to interpret the bible; that now his position has become unfalsifiable. Since any bible reading that contradicts his view, he can now confidently dismiss, since you aren't qualified to interpret the bible (but I assure you, he thinks he is!). It's brilliant! Make sure to copy this feature for your new religion!
@Gabriel
>(1) God is a logical necessity. When we consider nature and it's fine tuning principles...
By this I guess you're referring to the fact that all of the forces in the universe are tuned perfectly to allow atoms, stars and us to exist, and that if any one of those forces was slightly weaker or slightly stronger, everything would collapse into chaos. That does not prove the existence of god. It proves that because things are just right in this iteration of the universe, we can observe them and talk about them. If they weren't, we simply wouldn't be here. In a multiverse or oscillating universe, there may have been infinite iterations in which the latter case was true. Your argument for a god seems to be based on a belief that our existence is somehow special and necessary. What are your grounds for that?
It's even worse. The number of "fine tuning parameters" increases and decreases as more is learned. When the source for one is discovered it is removed from the list. When new unexplained stuff is found, they are added to the list. Arguments from fine tuning is just the god of the gaps argument in a fancy new dress. Back in the day, apologists would address some of the parameters individually, until one of the ones they always appealed to was figured out. They learned their lesson and now they don't typically name them, so they don't have to worry about it blowing up in their faces again. So they can now continue to make this claim as long as the source of a single parameter is unknown; which is exactly what the god of the gaps argument is.
Love the new avatar Algebe!
Thank you Nyarlathotep. Your avatar is very impressive. Mine is the white rose of York. I chose it because I was born in Yorkshire, and because I didn't like having the same default lion-head avatar as certain other posters.
Haha! I like the novice responses, but no REAL arguments to negate anything I've presented. Atheists, offer your logical explanation(s) as to what made the world and us. I heard Aron Ra in a debate with Ray Comfort and he offered that it was possible that several brains/minds are responsible for this world and is. So let me hear your thoughts on this matter, if you have any? Further, disprove my statement that God is mind and invisible, which the Bible teaches, as being illogical. Questions gentlemen, (1) Do men possess mind and can mind be seen or contained in a test tube? (2) Does the order and fine tuning of the universe necessitate mind/intelligence? Would you say that something that made or created, say like a house or car, is a product of mind/intelligence?
I do not belong to any denomination, I am just a Christian as the Bible says (Acts 11:26). I adhere to the correct view of what the Bible teaches concerning who God is - mind and invisible. God gave us truth, which are contained in the Scriptures (Deut. 32:4; Jn.17:17); and the Scriptures cannot be PRIVATELY INTERPRETED by any man (2 Pet. 1:20-21). If you ask, and you will, whose interpretation is correct? The one that is consistent logic, reason, common sense, and reality. If someone says something that doesn't adhere to any of these, then it must be quickly discarded.
I stand behind my statement that atheists are ignorant of the Bible as most religious people. Atheists don't know the process of hermeneutics, of which must be known in order to properly interpret the Scriptures.
Once again, God isn't a physical being, and is neither male, female, animal, tree, or any other idol. This is the problem with false religions from the East and West, they make God something tangible or an idol, which is wrong and erroneous.
What a bunch of crap. You can't prove anything so you want US to prove it for you. You are so wrong in so many ways it isn't even funny. Atheists are NOT ignorant of the bible. I dare say that most atheists are experts on the bible.
Gabriel :" Atheists don't know the process of hermeneutics, of which must be known in order to properly interpret the Scriptures."
Which hermeneutics must be known?
Gabriel : " Do men possess mind and can mind be seen or contained in a test tube?"
The question is a product of mind. I hope you possess it. Mind is usually not placed in a test tube but could be. I have seen mind on a microscope slide, laid bare during brain surgery , and best while active in a PET scan.
Gabriel : "Would you say that something that made or created, say like a house or car, is a product of mind/intelligence?"
Cut to the chase. Of course a car is the product of mind. Many minds. Now , I suppose the watchmaker ?
Gabriel, maybe the third time will be the charm and you won't dodge the question. What do you offer to corroborate the stuff in your book?
Also, you said, "Atheists don't know the process of hermeneutics, of which must be known in order to properly interpret the Scriptures."
Were those instructions made readily available to the readers of your book?
@Gabriel
>I stand behind my statement that atheists are ignorant of the Bible as most religious people. Atheists don't know the process of hermeneutics, of which must be known in order to properly interpret the Scriptures.
I can't speak for others, but I'm old enough to have gone through the school system (in the UK and New Zealand) when religion was a formal part of the curriculum. I studied the bible and passed exams on it. I learned about all aspects of the Christian religion, including seeing a couple of my friends molested by a scripture teacher right in front of the class. After one lesson when I was five or six, my parents found me crying in terror and crayoning a red cross on our front door. You'll know what that meant if I tell you that I was the eldest son.
As for interpretation, or hermeneutics, or whatever fancy name you want to call it, are you aware that the bible consists of translations of translations of translations? I'm a professional translator. I translate enough Japanese documents every year to fill one of your bibles. So I can tell you that a translation is never perfect. It's like faxing a document. Every time you fax something you lose a little bit of definition. Everytime something is translated, a little bit of the meaning is lost. It's inevitable. Try it on Google translate. And the errors build geometrically. I work on a computer using the Internet and advanced dictionaries. I don't think the early bible translators, like Saint Jerome, had those advantages.
An example of the errors that have crept in is the word "Almah" meaning "young unmarried woman" in Hebrew, which became "parthenos" meaning a woman who has never had sex" in Greek, and "virgin" in English. As someone who places such great importance on the bible, I think your only course is to learn Hebrew and read the original. Though be aware that even some of the original Hebrew writings are themselves translations from Egyptian and Babylonian texts. Were you aware that monotheism was invented in Egypt under the Pharoah Akhenaten? There are records of proto-Hebrew tribes in Egypt around that time.
There is another vexing question about the bible. Who decided which books should go in and which should be excluded? Who decided which were the true and final texts? Christians will claim that the early church fathers selected the books under divine guidance. I think it was more likely a combination of politics, and luck as to which were lost and which preserved.
All in all, I find the bible the most tedious, disgusting book I've ever been forced to read. As a recipe for the good life, it ranks somewhat lower than the words of de Sade. What lessons am I supposed to learn from the life of King David, for example? Remember Uriah? Harry Potter is a far better example than any of the characters in your so-called holy book.
Gabriel - "Further, disprove my statement that God is mind and invisible, which the Bible teaches, as being illogical."
Typically crackpots demand others prove their arguments. Rational people instead prove their own arguments.
---------------------------------
Gabriel - "(1) Do men possess mind and can mind be seen or contained in a test tube?"
Yes, I do think that is the case.
-------------------------------------------------
Gabriel - " (2) Does the order and fine tuning of the universe necessitate mind/intelligence?"
No I do not think that is the case.
----------------------------------
Gabriel - "(2.5)Would you say that something that made or created, say like a house or car, is a product of mind/intelligence?"
I have to imagine the "debate" on where houses and cars come from was over long ago.
The scripture is not truth. This is the position I stand by. I warned that biblical bits would get you nowhere. Maybe you should stop your holier-than-thou act and take a moment to get your head screwed on strait.
@ Gabriel
You have modestly taken the name of an angel, then act like an spiteful antagonist. How very Christian of you. Noted.
( @ Deidre, take note how THIS is the kind of theists (sadly mostly Christians) that often argue against atheists. That is why normal and kind theists sometimes gets a harsh approach from atheists. )
"Haha! I like the novice responses, but no REAL arguments..."
...he said mockingly, while avoiding my only real question.
Instead of facing the question, you try to just move on to two new questions. My question to you, is directed at the core of your beliefs, so I ask again:
- What makes you think the Bible has any credibility?
If you can drop the "Haha! I'm a superior human over you scum"-act and have a civil discussion, that would be more productive. Please.
If you keep ignoring the base question it will get you nowhere, so I'll rephrase my question and give you a motivation to answer:
To me (and many other atheists) the Bible is just another collection of allegedly holy texts. Every single holy texts is subject to interpretation, and regardless of hermeneutics there is no shortage of interpretations.
I don't believe a single claim made in the Bible that is of supernatural nature, not one. Equally I don't believe in any supernatural claims made in the holy texts of Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism or any other religion.
Can you say anything to me, that would help me believe that the Bible is the genuine source of information about god?
Is there something you know that can convince me to believe that the Bible holds credibility about it's supernatural claims?
"The Pragmatic": I do apologize if my tone was too sarcastic, but I was responding mostly to the peanut galley who make drive-by statements with no REAL substance and arguments. Everyone needs to put their thinking caps on and truly listen, read, investigate, and meditate on what I am saying. But all that ever happens is, impetuous remarks are given once someone reads something they disagree with. This is not the way one grows in their understanding of things. Once must be willing to listen and give others the benefit of the doubt before being slammed for their views and positions. This is why atheists are viewed as angry people against religion, and I get it, because you've been arguing against "religious nuts" that have misused and wrongly interpreted the Bible. But I am here to tell you that there is a religious minority that agrees with most of what you say, not because you've said it, because the Bible validates it. We're supposed to be working together to figure out a solution, not create more problems. I began by saying that "I agree" with you all in saying that people who believe God speaks to them today are deluded. And when I bring in the Bible to confirm this, I get chastised and made fun of. The habitual response of "I hate religion and the Bible" comes out automatically when I mention something about the Bible. It would be wise to stop, pause, and really consider what someone says, and attempt to give arguments to negate someone's position. All of the passages I've used have proved the claim that God doesn't speak to man today as religious people claim today. This is an idea conjured up by false religions who have interpreted the Bible incorrectly (Matt. 7:15).
For atheists, the Bible has become just another collection of holy texts, because they have judged the book by the life of feign religious seekers (i.e., false religions and concepts). Through the "foolishness" of religious people from all colors and stripes, the Bible has been rejected and clumped with holy texts from Hinduism, Buddhism, and any other religion. But if one honestly investigates the Bible and compares it with other holy texts (e.g., Epic of Gilgamesh, Egyptian Book of the Dead, Vedas, Tao Te Ching, Koran), one will notice HUGE differences on the nature of God and slight agreements on morality and ethics. With regard to the nature of God, in those listed, with the exception of the Koran, Torah, and New Testament, God is presented as being an idol, whether it be man or animal, or as human being, both male and female. Yet the Bible instructs us that God is not a physical entity and even rebuked the nation of Israel for following idols, which could not hear, speak, or talk (Isa. 44:8-24). God is not a man, woman, animal, insect, or whatever man conjures up; God is mind and immaterial, which the Bible confirms. God is a powerful, metaphysical Being, who created this world and everything therein. This is exactly what the book of Genesis, chapters 1-2, teaches us. And if God is our Creator, and All-Powerful as the Bible tells us(Exo. 15:6; Deut. 32:4), then we as His creation are subject unto him. God even uses the picture of a potter and clay to teach us who He is. He is the potter and I am the clay (Jer. 18:6, cf. Rom. 9: 20-21). This is logical and reasonable to accept, because I am not free to do whatever I want, rather my Creator governs my existence (Jer. 10:23). The slight similarities that holy texts have are in the realm of morality and ethics, but even then, the Bible comes out on top. because it champions TRUE MORALITY over the greedy wants of man. But then you'll hear the tired arguments from atheists about how the Bible condones rape, murder, slavery, etc. But if one genuinely studies the Scriptures in question, using the process of correct hermeneutics, then they'll understand what the true meaning behind these passages are. Really?! Do you think I would follow a book that champions immorality and unethical treatment of others. Far from it! I would reject that book in a heartbeat!
To understand the Bible ends and begins with hermeneutics. Hermeneutics is the science of interpretation. But this process is a logical one. In other words, it is innate in our understanding of both sender and receiver of communication. It follows these common sense rules: Who is speaking or writing? To whom are they speaking or writing to? Where is the message being communicated? What is the purpose for the message? What is the context of the message? What words are being used and how are they defined? Is the writer using figurative or literal language? What time period is the message being communicated? and so forth. It follows the five W's. We follow these rules all the time when we communicate with other people. It is no different when study the Bible, or for that matter, in other holy text. We must understand that the sender has a message to communicate and it is up the the receiver to decipher and discern in order to come to a correct understanding of the message. The problem today is, many religious people don't use this process and eventually come up with ideas that are foreign to the Bible, logic, reason, and common sense.
As far as supernatural is concerned, the Bible teaches that God no longer works supernatural today (1 Cor. 13:8-10), but that man is left to himself to figure things out with the mind He has given him and with the Bible to safely lead him (2 Tim. 3:16-17). I don't argue that God is directly working today, but the Bible teaches that He works today indirectly with the things He has provided us with. Therefore, the only true battleground between me and atheists is in the arena of cosmology, in which we must use powers of reason to logically argue whose position makes more sense. I say that it is more logical and rational to say that a POWERFUL and GREAT MIND gave rise to all that we have, as the Bible states. But if you all disagree, what is your logical and rational argument? How did we get here? Who or what made us? Offer something instead if you don't believe that the God of the Bible was responsible.
The Bible holds credibility because it validates reality. The Bible is a logical and rational book. Ask more questions to see whether it does or not.
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