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I do understand that it's not up to atheists to disprove a god, but you must understand that theists can't be expected to answer an impossible question. And the similarities between Christianity and pagan mythology is over exaggerated, manipulated, or false. I'll give examples,
Tammuz, identified as a shepherd.
Christ, identified as a shepherd.
Actually, Tammuz WAS a shepherd, Christ is a metaphorical shepherd.
Osiris was resurrected.
Christ was resurected.
So? Men (or demons) created Egyptian gods and their stories. Rising from the dead is something all people think is an amazing feat. I once made a fantasy book series and there were people rising from the dead. So what? That doesn't mean anything. It's the product of an imaginative mind.
Horus was crucified.
Christ was crucified.
Crucifixion was not a form of execution in ancient Egypt, and Horus standing in cruciform position does not make him crucified. Christ was crucified in a time when crucifixion WAS a form of execution.
Mithra was born of a virgin.
Christ was born of a virgin.
Mithra was actually born from a mountain, so unless the mountain is a virgin, Mithra is not born of a virgin. Christ was born from a female human, not a gigantic rock. These are just a few examples.
There are many more but the fact is that christianity was created out of other myths. They aren't just similar, in many cases they are exact. Zoroaster. The fact is that many myths that predate jesus are stories created for jesus by new christians.
But if the question of proving your god is impossible, then you have no proof, and therefore cannot expect any sane person to believe it.
You say there is a god.
I say prove it.
You say that is impossible.
is like me saying:
There is a blue cow hiding behind the sun that will cure all the world's problems if you sacrifice yourself with a knife.
You say prove it.
I say I can't.
Would you just take my word? Would you commit suicide? That is exactly what you are asking all of us to do. To commit to something with absolutely no proof whatsoever.
Until you prove it, it isn't a fact, not even close.
So PROVE it already or stop wasting everybody's time.
Just because I can't prove it doesn't mean He's not real, but yeah, I see that I'm wasting other people's time here, so I'll leave.
It means that it isn't realistic for consideration. So you believe in god. So what. the only reason you believe in god is because someone or a bunch of people instructed you to. You have no proof. In fact, all of your "proof post", "personal experiences" aren't even real proof to you. You just jump to a conclusion and attribute it to a god.
"but you must understand that theists can't be expected to answer an impossible question."
Then you have nothing to contribute to the OP, which clearly asks theists to prove they have a relation ship with God. If you can't do that, then I assume you are suffering from Grandiose Delusions. Which was something else mentioned in the OP. Stay on the OP, or you have no reason to post on the topic.
Hawk Flint - "Mithra was actually born from a mountain"
In the Roman myth---the myth contemporary with the new testament authors---he was born of the Magna Mater.
A personal experience is not a proof. It's a personal experience.
"Personal experience of a human being is the moment-to-moment experience and sensory awareness of internal and external events or a sum of experiences forming an empirical unity such as a period of life."-Wikipedia
Vs.
proof
pro͞of/
noun
1.
evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement.
"you will be asked to give proof of your identity"
synonyms: evidence, verification, corroboration, authentication, confirmation, certification, documentation, validation, attestation, substantiation
"proof of ownership"
These two are not the same.
In the words of my father(who was also atheist), "One man's personal experience is another man's "Bullshit!""
Hello Gentlemen, I have been out of pocket for awhile, but now I am back to continue my dialogue.
First, let me say that Hawk Flint doesn't represent what the Bible teaches. God doesn't speak to us today in visions, experiences, and dreams, and is self-deluded if he thinks He does. Second, I have never tried to prove God's existence with an experience or with anecdotal argument, rather I've argued from a logical necessity position. In other words, we work from the known to the unknown and make conclusions that should be sound and logical. Since the theist and atheist weren't there in the beginning of universe, we both go to the evidence of nature, study it, and work our way back from it. Based on the evidence of natural processes, I posited a conclusion of an Eternal Creator, who is mind/thought, immaterial, incorporeal, and invisible, which the Bible describes, who is responsible for all things. Show me where my postulation has cracks. Why couldn't it be Him? And if you want proof of His existence, I can't give you any, because how do you prove Someone that is immaterial, incorporeal, and invisible? I can only offer nature to prove His existence (fruits), which shows order, precision, and fine-tuning. Therefore, my conclusion is, Someone beyond matter/nature is responsible for all that we have and experience in life. I've asked for you all to offer other conclusions and I've gotten evolution, multi-universe, alien-life, and the ubiquitous "I don't know!" First, evolution doesn't make sense to me. Why? Because (to me) it is illogical to think that we've slowly evolved from one species to another; from simplicity to complexity. I ask you all. Give me evidence of this ever happening. I don't want speculations, I want evidence that I can see and test, not speculations of some bones that were found in the ground and have been touted as evidence. The reason why evolution is especially hard for me to accept because intelligence and communication just didn't evolve, it had to emanate from Someone else; this seems logical. The multi-universe and alien life doesn't make sense because it begs more questions, like where did those people/entities come from. And don't confuse with this my postulation, because I've already said that the Creator of the Bible reveals Himself as the First and the Last, meaning He is Eternal, no one made Him. And finally the "I don't know" argument until further research is done is a moot point. If you don't know, then why are we arguing against a position that is just as likely as evolution, multi-universe, alien life, et. al, and I would say even more logical than these. Once again. I'm arguing from a logical necessity, not from experience or story telling.
And with regard to the validity of the Bible, I mentioned that the Bible is true because it confirms what we experience in life. In other words, if the Bible was false (as you say) then it would have things in there that contradict life experiences and science, but it does not. This is why I quoted all of those verses to prove that it validates what we experience and know to be true in life, some even before the Scientific Revolution of the 17th century. And even those passages, which you'll eventually quote, that are alleged contradictions have an explanation for them. It is only when one studies it with honesty and open-mindedness that one can truly understand.
"In other words, if the Bible was false (as you say) then it would have things in there that contradict life experiences and science, b̲u̲t̲ ̲i̲t̲ ̲d̲o̲e̲s̲ ̲n̲o̲t̲.̲"
Am I the only one who knows that people used to think lightning was a sign of God being angry? What do we know now? It's a plasma discharge. How do we know this? Science. Not the Bible or religion.
I have to imagine the debate over the truth of evolution was finished the moment it became a part of the public school curriculum.
You say that there is no proof for evolution, that it can't possibly be true. Have you studied it? Do you have any clue what the theory of evolution says? What tenets are attached to it? If not, you have no grounds to say anything about evolution either.
Oh, and, if you are going to posit your God to fill the "Someone" gap, then I will posit advanced aliens from the Andromeda galaxy.
Xavier de Forres - "Oh, and, if you are going to posit your God to fill the "Someone" gap, then I will posit advanced aliens from the Andromeda galaxy."
I see your aliens and raise you; I posit the universe was created by a one-eyed, yellow, mutant, space chicken named George.
And I shall raise you: I posit your universe creating chicken was created by a time altering, genetically malleable, shape shifting hampster named Bob. I also say that you chicken assertion is blasphemous, because THIS BLANK SHEET OF NOTE BOOK PAPER SAYS SO DAMNIT! AND DONT SAY IT DOSENT! lol.
Note: Ten points for the first person who notices the contradiction in the above statement.
1) you make statements that simply are not true. The bible doesn't confirm anything, not life experience nothing.
2) The bible has historically contradicted science. Only after the bible has been proved wrong is there some new and ridiculous reinterpretation of the bible. The bible is ambiguous at best and a flat out lie at worst. It actually lies closer to a lie than anything, as it is allegory that came from other cultures.
3) Evolution has been proven through DNA and is a fact.
4) You jump to conclusions based on assumptions. You say that the construction of fruit is evidence of a god. That is making an assumption with no direct evidence at all.
Therefore your statement about yourself is false. You don't use logic or facts to make your case.
@ Gabriel
Since you have been avoiding to answer my questions, I thought I try another one. Lets keep it simple.
"Based on the evidence of natural processes, I posited a conclusion of an Eternal Creator, who is mind/thought, immaterial, incorporeal, and invisible"
How did you reach this conclusion?
Gabriel - "In other words, if the Bible was false (as you say) then it would have things in there that contradict life experiences and science, but it does not."
Just off the top of my head:
The biblical flood contradicts science.
The sun standing still for Joshua for several hours contradicts science.
The creation account in Genesis contradicts science in many places.
The duration of human existence on Earth from the Bible (about 6000 years) contradicts science.
Gabriel: "Why couldn't it be Him?"
This, and what you say about your holy book seem to be what you're hanging your hat on. You buy it, I don't. It's just far too squishy for me to do so.
Gabriel - "I posited a conclusion"
You don't posit conclusions. Conclusions are deduced from posits; if a statement is a posit, it isn't a conclusion.
@ Gabriel
There simply is no way to conduct any real debate if you fill each post with a multitude of assertions and arguments. If you're actually serious about discussing any of this, you have to take it in much smaller steps.
This drive-by approach doesn't work very well.
Hehe...."drive by"....he......
Gentlemen,
I've never said that the Bible is a science book, nor does it discuss in detail every aspect of how nature works, rather the Bible makes statements (as I have showed) that validates, generally speaking, the process of nature and the animal kingdom (and this before the Scientific Revolution of the 17th century). For example, it mentions that the earth is a sphere before people knew it was a sphere (Isa. 40:22). It mentions that the earth hangs upon nothing before people know the earth hanged upon nothing (Job 26:7). It mentions the circuits of the wind and seas before it was discovered that the winds and seas had circuits (Eccl. 1:6-7). It makes mention of clusters of stars (Orion, Pleiadas) before they were actually discovered (Job 9:9). It makes mention of dinosaurs before fossils of dinosaurs were found (Job 40:15-41:34). It mentions the process of ants before it was discovered how ants behave (Pr. 6: 6-8). My point in all this is, the Bible confirms what we generally experience in nature and the animal kingdom; it does not contradict anything. If it does, show me. But once again, the Bible is not a science book, nor a biology book, rather it only discusses in general terms things that happen and they've happened because of the mind and intelligence of an Almighty God. It is up to us to discover in detail how things function and work through the laws and rules instilled by an intelligent God. God has made and powers nature, but He has also installed rules and a process by which nature and the animal kingdom function, called physics and instinct. This is why Psalm 93:1 says that the world is "established that it cannot be moved," meaning God ordered the world and universe with rules and laws that we come to terms with. Therefore, when we begin to study nature and the animal kingdom in great detail, then we see the great intelligence behind it; therefore, forcing us to conclude that Someone of great power was responsible for it. This is why Paul says in Romans 1:20, "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his Eternal power and Godhead."
No where on this thread I have stated or mentioned that God directly works today in the world as He once did, nor that the destructive forces of nature are directly from God. Some of you are implying this because of your communications with false religious people who say some crazy things and interestingly can't be backed up by the Bible. I am not part of this group. I am an independent thinker and when things are stated that don't make sense, I reject them. But as I noted, much of the gross misunderstanding of how God works today is through a misunderstanding of the Bible. The Bible tells us that in order to believe something it has to make sense and there must be evidence (Isa. 1:18; Heb. 1:1).
And quit bringing up the "God of the gaps" foolishness. As I mentioned, we all work from the known to the unknown. We all offer a "God (god) of the gaps" argument. Not any one of us has been present at the beginning of existence, so we are all making speculations and guesses, but of those guesses we make, they have to be logical, reasonable, and sensible. I've addressed this already, but all some of you do is poke fun and say some outlandish things. I'm offering a serious conclusion. The only points in contention are, because I've ruled out multi-universe, alien life, and "I don't know!" arguments (these beg more absurd questions) is: either matter is alive, intelligent, and eternal, or Someone or Something is alive, intelligent, and eternal. If matter is what we are going to conclude, then proponents of it have to prove that matter is alive, intelligent, and eternal. This means that matter must be shown to be conscious and has the ability to imbed intelligence in things, governed by rules and laws. Show how atoms possess life and consciousness. Also, they must show how matter is able to give us rules of morality and ethics, laws of mathematics, and emotions, such as love, fear, etc. I hope you can see the absurdity of these claims. The only item ever known to be alive, intelligent, and eternal is Mind. This makes sense, that an eternal Mind is responsible for creating life and sustaining it. This eternal Mind is what gives intelligence, precision, and order to nature and the animal kingdom. This eternal Mind is what gives us morality and ethics, laws of this world, and emotions. And once again, the Bible describes the ONLY ONE AND TRUE GOD as MIND - invisible, incorporeal, and immaterial. This Being is responsible for all that we see, feel, taste, touch, and smell. I work from the known to the unknown, and the known, it's governed by intelligence, precision, and order takes me logically and rationally to the conclusion that a Supreme Being exists.
For those dissenters that don't think I know what evolution is are flat out wrong. Evolution is the process by which different kinds of living organism ARE THOUGHT TO HAVE DEVELOPED and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth. Now, as I mentioned, since no one has been there at the beginning, then all we offer are speculations. Sadly, when we begin with a biased premise we fill in the holes of understanding with that bias instead of just looking at the evidence and logically concluding something. Based on the study and science of biology there are some tenets of Evolution I adhere unto, such as species multiply, gradualism, and natural selection, but when scientists begin to posit common descent based on similarities this is where logic isn't being used. I agree that we have common traits with the monkey species, but so what. I have common traits with a lot of species, but that doesn't and shouldn't translate into: 'We came from them!" This is an assertion being made from a bias, attempting to disprove the more logical and rational explanation that an Eternal Mind created us.
And for all of you who are asking me to prove how God made the sun to stand still and other supernatural events mentioned in the Bible is a moot point. I can't! All I know is, if God is Mind and is powerful, then He can do anything He wants. God said of Himself: "Is there anything too hard for the Lord" (Gen. 18: 14). Once again, I am not saying that God works miraculously in our world today, because He doesn't, the Bible confirms this, but I am saying that God is a logical necessity based on the evidence of nature. We work from the known to the unknown and make wise and logical conclusions.
Gabriel - "For example, it mentions that the earth is a sphere before people knew it was a sphere (Isa. 40:22)."
False. Isaiah 40:22 does not say the Earth is a sphere.
--------------------
Gabriel - "It mentions that the earth hangs upon nothing before people know the earth hanged upon nothing (Job 26:7)."
False. The Earth isn't "hung".
--------------------
Gabriel - "It mentions the circuits of the wind and seas before it was discovered that the winds and seas had circuits (Eccl. 1:6-7)."
False. People have known about currents long before the bible was written.
--------------------
Gabriel - "It makes mention of clusters of stars (Orion, Pleiadas) before they were actually discovered (Job 9:9)."
False. There are cave drawings of the Orion constellations that are 30,000+ years old. You know, 25,000 years before the Bible says man was created?
--------------------
Gabriel - "It makes mention of dinosaurs before fossils of dinosaurs were found (Job 40:15-41:34)."
False. References to dinosaurs (or monster creatures) have existed since the earliest knowns writings more than a 1000 years before the bible was written.
--------------------
Gabriel - "It mentions the process of ants before it was discovered how ants behave (Pr. 6: 6-8)."
False. It describes the behavior of ants at about the level a 4 year old could have figured out their own, and additionally it contains false information about ants.
--------------------
This is what religion has done to your brain; that you were willing to believe all that non-sense you posted. Many of these claims are rather disturbing. The idea that no one ever noticed the Orion constellation until the Bible mentioned it? How could you believe that? And ants carrying food back to their nests; you don't think people noticed that before the Bible was written?
@ Gabriel
I can see that you're good at taking a hint. (Note the sarcasm)
Too long, didn't read...
Gabriel,
The Bible may not a science textbook, but it is certainly limited to Iron Age thinking and its associated errors. Start with Genesis I which is an excellent reflection of Babylonian cosmology. Then there is Noah's Ark which reaches the height of silliness. Noah and his group of 8 must care for more animals than several modern zoos can handle, and he has to do so with a fraction of the resources available, and all of this is on a rocking, damp, infested boat with no effective air conditioning, sanitation, or lighting! (Lanterns, aside from being woefully inadequate, would explode all that methane gas!) Anyone who believes that story has truly taken leave of reality. Those who retain a few brain cells pretend that this is just a story, and in a sense it is, but I'm sure that it was also meant to be taken literally at the time. It also supplies the necessary explanation for the survival of the animals during the flood. Moving to Leviticus, what about God's inability to distinguish between mold and leprosy? Leviticus makes God's laws look worse than what you find in darkest Africa.
Isa. 40:22 is about a god, whose residence is just above the highest part of the sky-dome, looking down at the pancake earth whose boundaries are circular. The Hebrew word is "circle" not "ball" or "sphere."
Job 26:7 says nothing about a rotating sphere in space! Notice that God "stretched out the northern sky" (Good News Bible). The sky-dome is 2-dimensional so naturally it would be stretched out like a giant tent! In other verses the Bible gives that very analogy! Even an ancient must have wondered if it was turtles all the way down. The answer here (different from the use of pillars in other parts of the Bible) is that God's power ultimately held up the FLAT earth. While you are on Job 26:7 take a look at the surrounding context, those many verses that only fit a flat earth.
Your comment on the Orion constellation and the Pleiades is unbelievable. Orion is one of the most notable constellations in the entire sky, and the Pleiades (a cluster of stars with 6 or 7 notable ones) can even be seen from cities with a fair amount of light pollution. Hey! Cave men gazed upon them! They were well known when the Bible was written. Either you have never seriously looked at the night sky or, else, your thinking has gone south!
There is no mention in the Bible of dinosaurs! It's a wild flight of fantasy to identify behemoth and leviathan as dinosaurs. Unlike dinosaurs, behemoth ate grass. The closest match you are going to get in comparing behemoth with known animals is a hippopotamus with exaggerated powers. Leviathan, on the other hand, is a fragment of an ancient story whereby the creator god initially battles the forces of chaos which are depicted as dark, primeval waters often symbolized as a great sea beast. It was a common legend in that part of the ancient world.
Your imagination has soared to never-never land! Psalm 93:1 is not talking about natural laws!! How can you possibly come up with that? The earth is fixed in its place as would befit a pancake earth that is the middle level of a 3-layered cosmology. The pancake earth is fixed, usually on supporting pillars, and above it is the sky-dome; below it is the watery deep. How do you squeeze out a spherical earth rotating and orbiting the sun! This isn't modern astronomy, Gabriel!
While you are at it, read a good book on the methods of science. Since when do we have to personally see something happening to know about it? Science works just like Sherlock Holmes who never personally witnessed any of the crimes he solved. Yes, we can know a great deal about many things that have happened millions or even billions of years ago. We can look at a fossil, apply verified dating methods, and know that a trilobite lived half a billion years ago. By the way, the FACT of evolution (as versus the role of several explanatory theories) is accepted by every responsible expert in the field. The scientific issue was settled long ago. The "debate" today is due to conservative religions just can't come to terms with reality.
Is there anything too hard for the Lord? Apparently so. God could find no better solution than to flood the world and kill innocent animals and children along with, by any intelligent estimate, many good people. Hell, even I could do better than that! Just give me some super powers and I'll put your god to shame.
Gentlemen,
Seems funny to me how you all want evidence before you'll believe in something, yet when "false" is the response by you all, no evidence is given just statements. The irony! And what is even more laughable is your "caveman" knowing things the Bible mentiones, yet in the Evolution timeline about 50,000 years ago is when men barely began learning complex language, and 30,000 years ago we have the first cave paintings discovered, which still indicates their fledging understanding of things, yet you want me to believe that they already knew about the earth hanging upon nothing and the biology of ants. Haha!!!! People could barely speak and understand complexity at the time you are quoting. Look at the facts gentlemen, the earth wasn't discovered to "hang upon nothing" until the 15th century by Copernicus. And the Earth wasn't properly identified as a sphere until the 6th century by Pythagoras. The currents of the wind and sea weren't discovered until the 18th century by oceanographer Matthew Maury. The Orion constellation wasn't made until the 6th century by Greeks philosophers. The Bible predates these factual dates by thousands of years. Get your facts straight and give evidence!
The account of Genesis 6 and the worldwide flood is believable. First, every culture and civilization references a world-wide flood. The ancient Chinese symbol for flood is a boat, eight people, and water. Hmmm....coincidence? Second, you are adding things to the text that is never mentioned. No where does it mention every detail how things were going to take place inside the ark, but certainly one could logically conclude if we are working with the premise of a Powerful Creator then He could set it in a way that is going to help Naoh and his family tend to all the animals; like possibly make some, or if not all the animals go into some hibernation mode. That's possible. The point is, you are speculating to create an impossibility of things, but once again we are talking about a time when God worked, and yes there is nothing too hard for Him.
And all of your references to the earth being described as a flat earth are uses of figurative and symbolic language. From God's perspective the earth is seen as his footstool meaning his place of creation. This is why you all grossly misinterpret the Bible, as do false religious folks, because you can't decipher between literal and figurative language.
Concerning the discription of dinosaurs, you haven't read the text, because if you did, it certainly describes dinosaurs. Concerning the behemoth, his tail is like a cedar, his bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like bars of iron. Yep, sounds like a garden snake to me. Concerning Leviation, he counts iron as straw, the arrow cannot make him flee. Yep, sounds like a minnow to me. Read the Bible before you misrepresent.
And your comment about give me superpowers and I'll put your god to shame is stupid. If I am working from the premise of a powerful God and Creator, then He chooses to do what He wants and how He wants. Just like today. I'm pretty sure you've been questioned in doing some thing in your life, but certainly you would respond, it is my life to live and do as I please. Likewise, since this is God's world and you are just a creature in it, then He has every right to do as he pleases without us questioning its legitimacy.
I stopped after reading, "yet in the Evolution timeline about 50,000 years ago is when men barely began learning complex language".
Well, you've started off with a rather dubious assertion. There is exactly zero proof to substantiate that. Actually, there are estimates (please put a lot of vocal stress on the word 'estimates') that include that figure but the estimates range from 50k to two million years. This, I'll be polite and call it an error, of yours led me to have substantial doubt of the veracity of your successive claims.
Gabriel,
Your reply (Aug 20 07:56) is such a train wreck that I stand in quiet awe as I contemplate the wreckage. I'll settle on three points and a few random comments to avoid a huge post.
Where do you get this "no evidence is given" nonsense? You have been given plenty of facts and/or common sense observations. For example, do I really have to count up the number of animals in two or three modern zoos to make a comparison with Noah's ark? (Don't forget to add in the dinosaurs and archaic mammals on Noah's ark! Some 99% of all animals that ever lived are extinct, so we have a rather full ark!) Can't common sense prevail? In any reasonable post common sense observations are justified if they are obvious and can easily be checked.
There is nothing in the Bible that a taxonomist would recognize as a legitimate description of a dinosaur. You are off on another flight of fantasy. Maybe you should beef up on dinosaur taxonomy. Behemoth and leviathan are mythical creatures. If you knew more about the ancient mythology of the Middle East, you would recognize leviathan as a creature associated with the primeval waters of chaos. The creator god must beat him (or his equivalents) before the order of creation can emerge. It's not by accident that Yahweh battles leviathan in the Bible, there being some remnants of that tale still present.
EARTH HANGING ON NOTHING (Job 26:7)
I don't recall talking about a cave man contemplating an earth hanging on nothing! I didn't see it in any of the posts following your Aug 19 post. Where do you get this straw man stuff? Need I remind you that the ancient Greeks knew that the earth was spherical (Eratosthenes even measured it accurately around 240 B.C.!) and that it rested on nothing? Hell, they could see its shadow on the moon during a lunar eclipse, and that shadow never comes with supports. Ha ha!!!! yourself, confused fellow! By the way, Pythagoras is credited for a spherical earth circa 600 B. C. E., not the 6th century! The Orion constellation is mentioned in the Odyssey which is estimated to have been written around 1100 B. C. E. You said it was the 6th century, an error of about 1600 years! Get YOUR facts straight pal before attacking us!
Yes, Job 26:7 does speak of God as having hung the earth on nothing. If you check any number of other verses in Job you will find nothing but flat earth metaphors. Job 26:7 is NOT talking about a rotating, spherical earth positioned in modern space. The Bible knows nothing of the vacuum and immensity of space. Moreover, doesn't the idea of the earth hung on nothing bother you a bit? The earth travels around the sun at some 60,000 miles per hour. It is not HANGING anywhere! It's moving. But, in the Bible the earth is fixed in its place, so "hangeth" makes good sense.
ORION AND PLEIADES (Job 9:9, 38:31; Amos 5:8)
Since you claimed that the Bible mentions the stars of Orion and the Pleiades before they were DISCOVERED, I pointed out that even cavemen could see the bright stars of Orion and the mostly fuzzy patch of the Pleiades where at least 6 stars stand out. People, living under night skies that most of us can only dream about, were acutely aware of what was up there. Bone sticks from Africa and Europe, as old as 35,000 B. C. E., track the moon's phases!
The Bible is not even first in recognizing the pattern of Orion the hunter (Greek mythology). In Job 38:31 God asks Job if he can loosen the belt of Orion. No explanations are deemed necessary. The constellation of Orion was not new stuff to the ancient reader of Job. Indeed, it is mentioned in the Odyssey which takes one back to around 1100 B. C. E. which is older than the Bible itself. (Scholars often use a date of around 600 B. C. E. for the assembly of Genesis. A few of its stories may go back to King David's time of about 1000 B. C. E. Gabriel, wake up and smell the coffee!
NOAH'S ARK NONSENSE
Gabriel, how can you tell us with a straight face that "…the worldwide flood is believable."? Certainly not to a rational person. As any geologist worth his rock hammer can tell you, there is absolutely no evidence for a worldwide flood!! You have been reading too much Henry Morris or Kent Hovind, or some silly internet site of that ilk. Anyone who claims that serious evidence for such a flood exists is either a geological idiot, a deluded fool, or some unthinking zombie. The evidence would be massive if such a thing happened 500 million years ago--let alone a few thousand years ago!
The problems with Noah's ark are so intractable that you, unable to fully deal with them, simply mumble something about God being able to take care of them! Hibernation mode? Is that why God ordered Moses to take aboard food for the animals? Maybe God just miniaturized those critters and used another miracle to keep them functional! Maybe God installed electricity, air conditioning and plumbing in the ark! The Bible doesn't deny that, and we know God can do anything.
The problems we atheists (and others) look at are based on a rational interpretation of the text, not on the premise that magic can be invoked as needed. A miracle here, a miracle there, a miracle everywhere! That's how you make the problems go away! It works for Muslims and Hindus, and people of various, odd religions that you have never heard of, so why not for Christians? Poor God, all he had to do was give all those evil people a magic heart attack! The whole flood gig was an unnecessary and clumsy headache with multiple side effects! A mere mortal (not me) figured that out.
Maybe the Bible is just wrong and all these miracles you make up are just rationalizations, balm for deep deniers.
"NOAH'S ARK NONSENSE"
"Gabriel, how can you tell us with a straight face that "…the worldwide flood is believable."? Certainly not to a rational person. As any geologist worth his rock hammer can tell you, there is absolutely no evidence for a worldwide flood!! You have been reading too much Henry Morris or Kent Hovind, or some silly internet site of that ilk. Anyone who claims that serious evidence for such a flood exists is either a geological idiot, a deluded fool, or some unthinking zombie. The evidence would be massive if such a thing happened 500 million years ago--let alone a few thousand years ago! "
What if the flood only happened in a specific part of the world? Many times in the Bible the word "world" is used but it doesn't mean the whole world. Example: 1 John 2:15 "Do not love the world or anything in the world. For the things of the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life are not of the Father but of the world." The word "world" here is (I think) "Kosmos" (I think I have incorrect spelling of that word). Another word for world is addressing the gentiles, again, not the whole world.
Hawk Flint - "What if the flood only happened in a specific part of the world?"
I don't entertain translation arguments about the bible. You are basically saying you know more than the 1000's of experts who translate the bible for publication, since none of them say it was local. Genesis 6 repeatedly reinforces the idea that it was a world wide flood, many times.
"You are basically saying you know more than the 1000's of experts who translate the bible for publication, since none of them say it was local."
Hence the,"What if."
"Genesis 6 repeatedly reinforces the idea that it was a world wide flood, many times."
Again, the "What if." Did you see my thing about the word "world?"
Yes, others suggest the same thing.
I don't remember the details, but wasn't the whole purpose of the flood to wipe away everything and start over? Otherwise there would be little point in gathering 2 of each kind of animals.
@ Gabriel
I question your motives for being here. You don't seem the least bit interested in actual discussion.
I have posed two questions, both of which are foundational questions to all your reasoning. I think you don't have an answer for either of them, so you avoid them.
I also tried to give you a tip, to post much less instead of 10 assertions and 10 arguments in each post, which only creates a chaotic discussion. This was also ignored.
Instead you keep posting big posts with way too much to respond to, and then you condemn all the replies in your next post.
If you actually are serious about discussing these things, take a single argument or a single assertion and post only that. Start from the beginning.
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