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Gentlemen,
Of course there has to be closure in the discussion of cosmology. To suggest "I don't know" or other thoughts which beg more questions will have us going circuitously, with no end in sight. There has to be a suggestion that is so logically sound that it trumps all other views. If we begin with the premise that matter was created, then we have to figure out, as we study the properties of matter, who or what CAN BE responsible for it and its properties. This is why (for me) the properties of matter and nature, which exhibit order, synergy, and fine-tuning leads me to the only item that has ever proved to give us these properties - MIND. Also, as I mentioned before, if matter is finite (properties of entropy), then this means (for me) that matter was indeed created. Hence, an ETERNAL MIND (meaning no one before or after) created matter and infused it with order, synergy, and fine-tuning properties. We now live in a world which works co-hesively.
And by the way, I haven't stopped thinking. This is why I am on this forum to listen to some of your suggestions that would rival mine or even trump it, but none has been given so far.
If in fact the universe was full of disorder and moving toward disorder, then why would we have an ordered universe to begin with? The odds of order from disorder happening are extremely astronomical. Even in your examples of disorder, I would counter by saying, they are very ordered. In your examples of chaos seen in nature, I would say that the chaos is still orderly, or else you wouldn't have nature doing anything at all. I believe you are confusing things here and are merely attempting to prove something with words that you really haven't thought through. As I mentioned, what you are confusing is the fact that properties of nature interact with each other in an orderly way, but in so doing, sometimes they create havoc and firestorms of life.
What intelligent design suggests (to me) is, we do have a purpose here on earth, which is to live life with our fellowman in an orderly and synergistic way, which ultimately brings our Creator, who made us all, pleased. Since all things end in death, it also demonstrates to me that my time is limited, helping me to further understand that I was created and will have to answer for the things done in my body.
When I consider the transactions of the world around me, what it demonstrates is, everyone, regardless of beliefs and practices, are blessed and cursed at the same time. In other words, everyone is afforded the same rights and privileges, as well as, the same fears and trepidations. Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. The world demonstrates that it is a equal opportunist (time and chance). When the ETERNAL MIND created the world and its self-sustaining and perpetuating laws, the Creator understood that men and nature would interact with each other resulting in either blessed or negative results. With natural law, it is unbiased, and therefore, when nature interacts with each other causing horrific events, or when we violate laws of nature, nature will takes it course. Now this is different with regard to mankind. Since man has been endowed with intellect, reason, and choice, then it is man's responsibility to use his faculties in response to natural calamity or to avoid natural calamity. If we see a tornado forming, we run and seek shelter. If we are sane, we know that jumping off a 30 foot building will not be in our best interests due to the law of gravity. And even if we get caught in unfortunate circumstances of life, it is not the end of the world, rather it is when we can demonstrate a resolve with MIND to overcome what ever is put before me. And this is exactly what the Bible teaches! God didn't promise to help us with our physical difficulties (story of Job), rather God prepared us with MIND to help us overcome physical battles of life. In other words, mind over matter!
Yes, the Eternal Mind set the world and mankind in motion. We interact with each other and are afforded times of pleasure and at other times, times of pain and agony. Just like mankind, we interact with other and are afforded, due to choices of men, times of pleasure and at other times, pain and agony. The only interaction that the Creator has with His creation is through the written word which He has left. Other than this, it is up to us to make smart moves in life that will garner me blessings, not cursings.
Gabriel - "I would counter by saying, they are v̲e̲r̲y̲ ̲o̲r̲d̲e̲r̲e̲d̲"
According to your earlier posts: something is either ordered or it isn't, and everything in the universe is ordered. Your use of the adjective "very" with the word ordered contradicts that.
Gabriel - "There has to be a suggestion that is so logically sound that it trumps all other views."
Actually, no there doesn't have to be any such suggestion. I would understand it if you followed that with, "for me to be comfortable." However, to avoid saying, "I don't know," to assuage discomfort is not a very sound reason for it.
@ Gabriel
"The only interaction that the Creator has with His creation is through the written word which He has left."
1) If this would be the case, wouldn't that go against everything that is the basis of Christianity?
* All the interactions described in the Bible has to be "interpreted away".
* Jesus could not have been the son of God - the most central concept in Christianity
* Miracles of divine intervention would not exists.
* Praying could not have any effect.
2) How could this MIND have left "the written word" to humanity, if that mind has not interacted with creation after starting it up?
I can't wait to see the response (if any) to this.
Gentlemen,
My phrase "very ordered" was in the context of, even if someone claims that chaos exists in our world, when we study the supposed chaos it reveals order - a systematic arrangement of things governed by rules and laws (e.g., hurricanes, tornado, etc.). The use of the adverb "very" means extremely, exceptional, and extraordinarily, which is used for emphasis sake.
And yes, if you're going to espouse something, then what you suggest must make sense. Atheists do this all the time with religious nuts and I concur. So when discussing matters of cosmology, what you espouse must make logical sense. If not, then it would be wise not to say anything at all. But my point was, if all you have to offer is "I don't know!" then honestly you have no skin in this game, unless you bring up something that would trump my thoughts and statements. Then if it is thoughts that are stronger in reasoning, I would be willing and open to listen it to.
And my statement: "The only interaction the Creator has with His creation is through the written word which He has left" is what the Bible teaches in connection with time periods (eras of man). Indulge me here for just a bit as I explain what I am talking about. And before you start to poke fun at some of things I write, remember I am working from a metaphysical Creator premise. What the Bible teaches is, in the beginning God made the world and mankind with their respected pre-programmed and self-sustaining laws. What this means is, God created the world and mankind with the ability to govern themselves, without His direct intervention. But there are countless examples in the Bible that tells us that God, being the Creator of this world, intervened in this world. He did so by either going above and beyond the laws of nature or manipulating the laws of nature to accomplish an end that He desired. But what is peculiar in all of this is, despite God working at times in this fashion, miracles was the exception, not the norm. In other words, even during the days that God did work miraculously, there were times God chose not to intervene and allowed the normal course of life to play out. For example, a great prophet of God by the name of Elisha died of a disease during the time God worked miracles. This is what false religious people don't understand. They take examples of God working miraculously in the past and translate it to God continuing to work this way today, and this is simply false. What the New Testament actually teaches is that there was coming a time in which God would discontinue (altogether) the use of miracles (1 Cor. 13:8-10), when "the perfect was come," referring to the "perfect law of liberty" - the written word of God (Jas. 1:25). After the death of the last apostle (90-100 AD), then all miracles ceased. Hence, the only item available to us today is His word that works in conjunction with established laws of nature. This is validated in the book of Ecclesiastes, where king Solomon speaks of time and chance events happening in our world and the only thing left for us to do is: "Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man" (12:13). Whatever people describe today as miracles do not constitute what the Bible teaches a miracle to be - instantaneous, firsthand knowledge, and awe-inspiring. And what many confuse today with miracles are just fortunate circumstances - time and chance events.
Mr. Pragmatic, your view of Christianity has been skewed by false Christian religions. When many claim that God works miracles today, the Bible doesn't support them in this teaching, and when investigated by reality and experience, their claims are foolish. Prayer was never intended to be used as a "genie in the sky" favor for all of our problems (and sometimes, these are problems we've created ourselves), rather prayer according to the Bible is merely a self-talk motivation acknowledging the Creator, thanking Him for all things, and reminding ourselves of our purpose in life - which is to live good and righteously as the Creator has commanded, and by doing so, bring Him honor and glory (Matt. 5:16). The point of the Bible today is, we must take care of ourselves by making good decisions throughout life, overcoming inevitable problems of life, and preparing ourselves to give an account of what we've done in our body.
Gabriel - "The use of the adverb "very" means extremely, exceptional, and extraordinarily, which is used for emphasis sake."
But you just got finished telling us that everything has the same amount of order. So it is impossible for anything to be "very ordered" or "extremely ordered" or "exceptionally ordered" or "extraordinarily ordered". As I told you before, if everything is ordered by the same amount, then the term "ordered" has no meaning.
Nyarlathotep, you don't read contexts. Everything in life is ordered the same, meaning having systematic arrangements governed by rules and laws. You are trying to re-define the word "order" so that it can fit your model of thinking. This is what is called dishonesty. What you are troubled about is, what I say makes lots of sense and the only way you can attempt to discredit what I am saying is by attempting to redefine what things mean. Wow! Is this the best "Atheist Republic" has by way of critical thinkers?
Gabriel - "You are trying to re-define the word "order" so that it can fit your model of thinking."
I can't very well redefine a word you haven't give a definition for. Worse still, since you said everything has an identical amount of this property, you will never be able to define it; since definitions rely on establishing differences between things. As you are using it, the word is totally meaningless.
What are you talking about? I have given a definition for the word "order." You just can't accept it, because it doesn't back up your suggestion, which if I'm correct, you haven't even given an alternative to my "Eternal Mind" argument. You just argue for the sake of arguing, and aren't honest enough to admit what is more logical.
Can you give us an example of something that is not ordered?
@Pragmatic
Consider those goal posts firmly moved. I'm done with this thread.
When someone can't deal with logical arguments, then they jump ship.
Well, you have been in the drink for quite some time........
@Gabriel
I noticed you posted again, so I've popped back in for a last line.
The Pragmatic's post so completely demolished your argument that your response could ONLY be " yes, everything I've said has been utter bollocks."
--------------------------------
[Edited to add]
The Pragmatic
@ Gabriel
"The only interaction that the Creator has with His creation is through the written word which He has left."
1) If this would be the case, wouldn't that go against everything that is the basis of Christianity?
* All the interactions described in the Bible has to be "interpreted away".
* Jesus could not have been the son of God - the most central concept in Christianity
* Miracles of divine intervention would not exists.
* Praying could not have any effect.
2) How could this MIND have left "the written word" to humanity, if that mind has not interacted with creation after starting it up?
--------------------------------
Thank you for the support.
I tried to indulge Gabriel to elaborate on what he means, but when the questions get uncomfortable, he simply omits to answer. It would seem this is strictly a one way discussion...
Gentlemen,
All I can say is, this forum has a lot peanut gallery commentators, but no real thinkers! Is there any one on here that can rival my argument of an "Eternal Mind" suggestion?
God is spirit, not just mind. He has has a mind, but He is more than mind, He is spirit.
It would seem to me, that depending on the believer you will get different definitions.
This is quite simply (in my view) because it is only a matter of arbitrary interpretation. God exists only as a personal god within the confines of your mind, and each believer has a personal version of that god.
Some, who do not like to think for themselves, have only the version fed to them by the local minister or the favorite TV preacher.
Or are my observations somehow incorrect?
I would never stoop so low as to try to rival utter bullahit, as that would require me to create other bullshit. Gentlemen, I leave him to you.
@Gabriel
" Is there any one on here that can rival my argument of an "Eternal Mind" suggestion?"
Is that a challenge to come up with something even more far-fetched? May the Force be with you.
In the meantime, I'll focus on trying to understand the real world, which is infinitely more interesting and amazing than a disembodied maybe-mind. For example, every atom in my body was formed through the death of stars billions of year ago and light years away. My DNA links me to every living thing on Earth. I have distance cousins who are trees, oysters and giraffes. Since life has only arisen once on this planet, every cell in my body is the result of cell divisions going all the way back in an unbroken chain to the very first cell. Yet each stage in all of these chains of existence was punctuated by a collapse of order. The stars exploded and scattered their mass across the galaxy. DNA mutates constantly. All of the cells perish except for the few that go forward through reproduction.
So the universe is a boiling cauldron of disorder with pockets of order forming here and there, just as tornadoes form out of chaotic thunderstorms as highly localized and temporary patterns of order. All it takes is an input of energy. The laws of physics will do the rest.
Eventually disorder will prevail. Depending on your theory of cosmology, the universe will keep on expanding forever, getting colder and darker until nothing happens at all and all information dissipates. Or it will start to collapse toward a Big Crunch followed by who knows what? I see no evidence of a guiding purpose or "eternal mind" behind any of this. I see no way that an "eternal mind" could even think, let alone exert influence, across distances measured in light years.
I think your "eternal mind" idea is just another example of the human tendency to look at the world through glasses colored with order and meaning.
@ Gabriel
I consider your "suggestion" completely o̲b̲l̲i̲t̲e̲r̲a̲t̲e̲d̲ until you start answering simple questions about it. Failure to do so only confirms how baseless it is.
At this point, I will consider any other answers, such as claiming to find no challenge, as pure trolling.
Gentlemen,
After reading your comments, (again), nothing is offered, but mere baseless comments and drive by comments (with no substance) by the peanut gallery.
Hawk Flint is what's wrong with our religious world. He is ignorant of the Bible and says things that are foolish. The word "spirit" is the Greek word pneuma is defined as mind/reason/thought. Jesus said in John 4:24 that God is spirit meaning God is mind. You can't just arbitrarily pick and choose what you want to believe in when it comes to the Bible. The Bible must be correctly interpreted by the process of correct hermeneutics - context and correct definition of words.
Really?! My "Eternal Mind" suggestion is being equated to "May the Force be with you" foolishness. My "Eternal Mind" suggestion has never been described as some type of matter or energy. I've described "mind" as something invisible, incorporeal, and eternal, meaning it is not physical! Some of you don't listen and comprehend well this point, but are so closed minded that you negate anything that would suggest a Creator. But when asked several questions, you all have yet to answer them, but you want me to answer your questions thoroughly. You all are hypocritical! And here are several questions I have been asking. For you all that believe that matter is our god (creator), How did matter evolve? How does organic matter possess properties of order, synergy, and fine-tuning? The "LOGICAL ANSWER" - it all happened by chance and chaos. Really? And who sounds more looney? Furthermore, you speak (with certainty) as you were there billions of years ago. Uh, wake up folks! You are only quoting theories and suggestions of scientists and physicists, not known truths! That's why the study of cosmology is a logical deduction warranted by the evidence we have in our known world. As I have always maintained, we work from the known to the unknown with logical conclusions sustain our beliefs. But just as you fault religious people, you do likewise, by making "CLAIMS" in what YOU THINK we are made up of, and then you'll cite the order, synergy, laws, and fine tuning properties of nature as happening arbitrarily. Now that's laughable! It is you who are forcing a conclusion not warranted by sound reasoning.
My "Eternal Mind" argument is sound until proven otherwise, not with your assertions and claims. Here it is again and meditate upon it before you start to speak. Matter was created, and this we know through it properties of decay. Matter evinces properties of order, synergy, laws, and fine-tuning. The only thing that I am aware of that gives properties of this sort is intelligence (mind). If not, then let's hear a plausible, reasonable suggestion. And please don't give me the answer of randomness. That position is illogical. If matter was created, then this logically suggests that it was created. But by whom? Something other than matter. Now if matter possess the aforementioned properties and those properties evince intelligence, then INTELLIGENCE is what created matter. But this INTELLIGENCE based on the logical reasoning is not matter, rather gave rise to it. Therefore, this INTELLIGENCE (MIND) is the beginning of all things; hence, eternal. There is no one before or after this mind.
I believe to further prove my point, I would like to begin discussing the relationship between brain and mind. Is the mind an extension of the brain, or is there a mind apart from the brain? This I believe will help us to determine the validity of my argument.
@ Gabriel
- "My "Eternal Mind" argument is sound until proven otherwise"
But you wont even answer questions about it?
According to you:
"The only interaction that the Creator has with His creation is through the written word which He has left."
1) If this would be the case, wouldn't that go against everything that is the basis of Christianity?
* All the interactions described in the Bible has to be "interpreted away".
* Jesus could not have been the son of God - the most central concept in Christianity
* Miracles of divine intervention would not exists.
* Praying could not have any effect.
2) How could this MIND have left "the written word" to humanity, if that mind has not interacted with creation after starting it up?
Mind is defined as thoughts, ideas, thinking, reasoning; what the Greeks called LOGOS. It is also identified as computation, meditation, and intellect. What our reality and experience teaches us (irony - "pragmatism") is that mind is what is responsible for every organized, synergistic, and fine-tuning projects of our world. Mind is responsible for buildings, cars, houses, watches, street lights, etc. But where does mind come from? This is why I asked questions about the brain and mind. Is the mind a by-product of the brain? Or, is the mind a separate entity? Is it possible for mind to shape the brain? And here is something to think about. If the mind is a construct of the brain, then the problem is, how did the brain form itself with great precision to even give rise to the mind or consciousness? Seems to me that another intelligence would have had to produce the brain with great properties to even give rise to the mind. So the conclusion that I am forced to accept is, based on the properties of nature, which exhibit properties of mind, there is an eternal mind that is responsible for our world. In other words, logically, there has to be a first in a series, and if nature exhibits intelligence, then I am forced to accept a first mind responsible for the world.
Your incessant quoting of my statement: "The only interaction that the Creator has with his creation is through the written word, which He has left" was given in the context of: How does God work today and not during Biblical times. Don't get this confused. God did work personally and intimately at one time (Genesis - Revelation), but the Bible teaches that God no longer works as He once did - through signs, wonders, miracles, visions, etc., but now speaks through the written word, which He has left - The Holy Bible (1 Cor. 13:9-10). This is why God commanded us to preach that word to the entire world (Matt. 28:19-20). So none of your questions are relevant to what the Bible teaches in how God works today. God no longer works supernaturally, nor does He answer prayers for special intervention. Jesus is God (Jn. 1:1,14), but suppressed his Godhood (Phil. 2:6-8) and took on the form of a human being (Heb. 2:14) to show us how to live life effectively (1 Jn. 2:4-6).
@ Gabriel
- "What our reality and experience teaches us (irony - "pragmatism") is that mind is what is responsible for every organized, synergistic, and fine-tuning projects of our world."
You keep saying that it "seems to" you to be that way. Sorry, but that doesn't fit with anything that reality and experience teaches me.
I don't doubt that it "seems to be" that way for you. But that conclusion makes no sense to me. There is simply nothing that leads from "reality and experience" to "mind is what is responsible for every organized, synergistic, and fine-tuning projects of our world".
Another thing I find peculiar is that you first write: "Seems to me...", then continue with, "...the conclusion that I am forced to accept..."
The second doesn't follow from the first.
Just because X seems to be Y, doesn't lead to anyone being forced to accept any conclusion. Even more so since the word "seems" refers to your personal interpretation.
It is simply erroneous to compare man made objects (assembled parts), with objects created by gravity or evolved lifeforms. This is just a variation of the age old Watchmaker Analogy.
If, for arguments sake, we agree that your assumption, that intelligence is needed to create any form of order, is correct. Then I still don't see why there would be a single, eternal mind.
* Why would this infer a singe mind, not five minds or millions of minds?
* Why would this mind have to be eternal?
* Why would this mind not have been created itself?
Pragmatic,
The use of the phrase "seems to be" indicates a postulation from a reasoned and logical reductionism. It's funny that you make a big deal of this phrase, but have not answered any of my questions. What this means is, you harp on the minor points to avoid speaking on the bigger issues presented to you, which evidentially, you have nothing to offer.
If you're going to say that my conclusion is "simply erroneous" that a mind can't be responsible for every organized, synergistic, and fine-tuning project in our world, then (for the millionth time), give an alternative. Don't just say objects were created by gravity and evolved lifeforms, because this hasn't proved your position or disproven mine. If you think about it carefully, it proves my position. How did the laws of gravity come about? How do lifeforms know how to evolve? Goes back to the questions I've already asked: How did organic matter "know" to organize itself in an orderly, synergistic, and fine-tuning way? Show how matter received the wherewithal to do this naturally, without any intervention? You want me to believe that organic matter somehow (through epochs of time) was able to order itself in a precise manner to give us an ordered and synergistic world. And you say that my position is whacky! Listen to yourself. My "mind" argument is sound. This is the only thing known to man that is able to give us order, synergy, and fine-tuning properties in life. If not, give an alternative. The universe, which is intelligently crafted, evinces a mind behind it all. Even the great scientist, Albert Einstein, once said, "I believe in God - who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of the universe." Also, the great physicist, Max Planck (founder of quantum physics), stated, "Yet in the whole universe there is no force that is either intelligent or eternal, and we must therefore assume that behind this force there is a conscious, intelligent Mind or Spirit. This is the very origin of all matter" (Eggenstein, 1984).
And you are correct in your statement - "Then I still don't see why there would be a single, eternal mind." As I mentioned before, none of us know Who or What created all things in the beginning. But what we can logically conclude is, from the properties of nature and working backward, Someone or Something with great intelligence is what created the world. This is why I've been suggesting an eternal mind, but you are right, we don't know whether it is a single mind, five minds, or millions of minds, but we do know (logically and reasonably) that is mind responsible for our world. And why would this mind have to be eternal? Because in discussing "creation," by necessity we are forced to conclude a Creator, which logically assumes is the First Cause of all things. What we learn from experience is, there is always a FIRST in a series of things. Even in Big Bang cosmology talking points, there is a beginning, a first to all things. Hence, to begin something, something must have already existed to have started it. This is why this mind is eternal. And if we're going to ask, what made this mind? can go on for an infinity. There has to be a FIRST in a series. It doesn't make sense that there was never a first in a series of things.
Gabriel - "But what we can logically conclude is, from the properties of nature and working backward, Someone or Something with great intelligence is what created the world."
Wiki - "appendix
əˈpɛndɪks
noun
1.
ANATOMY
a tube-shaped sac attached to and opening into the lower end of the large intestine in humans and some other mammals. In humans the appendix is small and has no known function, but in rabbits, hares, and some other herbivores it is involved in the digestion of cellulose."
If we were constructed by an intelligent mind why do we have organs that are of no use to us? This does not follow logically. The simple act of constructing something via intelligent design would negate an arbitrary appendix.
@Gabriel
"The word "spirit" is the Greek word pneuma is defined as mind/reason/thought. Jesus said in John 4:24 that God is spirit meaning God is mind. You can't just arbitrarily pick and choose what you want to believe in when it comes to the Bible. The Bible must be correctly interpreted by the process of correct hermeneutics - context and correct definition of words."
So "spirit" is "pneuma" in Greek. It's also "ruach" in Hebrew, and often translated into English as "ghost" as well as "spirit." So what? Does the existence of a Greek word in a translation of a Hebrew text somehow give this word special significance? "Pneuma" originally meant "wind" or "breath," which I guess is why we have pneumatic tires on our car. By extension the word can be used figuratively to mean the essence of meaning of words. It's understandable that "pneuma/ruach" took on special meanings among people who didn't understand the origins and mechanisms of wind, and who saw breathing as the main evidence of life.
But I'm still waiting to hear what "organic matter" is, and how it relates to "eternal mind." I understand "organic matter" as either carbon-based compounds, or the decayed remains of plants and animals as an ingredient in soil. What does it mean in your dictionary?
The Greek word" pneuma" and the Hebrew word "ruach" do have extensive meanings and definitions. But as I have always maintained, the way one comes to know which definitions to use is through the process of hermeneutics, namely context. So in the context of John 4:24 Jesus was explaining to a woman (who God was) in connection with true and false worship. Jesus said that in order to worship Him correctly, we must worship Him "in spirit and in truth," meaning according to intellect and by His commandments. The underpinning statement to this was, God is spirit, meaning God is mind. This thought is consistent with John 1:1 when God is described as the WORD ("logos" - thought, reason, mind). The reason some defined these a breath or wind, was because the mind was seen in connection with it, meaning breath and wind can't be seen as the mind, and when one expires from life and breathes his last breath, the person's mind is no longer with him/her. This is all consistent with Genesis 2:7 when the Bible says that "God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, " which intimates man's ability to possess consciousness. Similarly speaking, Job 12:10 says, "In whose hand is the soul of every living thing and the breath of all mankind." I was showing HAWK FLINT that he was wrong when he said that mind and spirit are two separate things when describing God. God is mind, but He is not breath. Breath is how people attempt to correlate the descriptors of the mind with properties of breath. God is immaterial, incorporeal, and invisible.
Organic matter is what has been created. This is what you and your co-horts can't grasp or won't accept. Organic matter (however you want to define it - carbon based or decayed material) was thought into existence. The word "created" in Genesis 1:1 means to create something out of nothing (ex nihilio). Now before you blow this off, remember I am working from a premise of an immaterial eternal mind that gave rise to all things. Matter was created and given order from this eternal mind. In order words, matter was preprogrammed to do what it was meant to do - sustain life. To suggest that matter is eternal defies the evidence of the laws of thermodynamics, but also defies the "new" science of quantum physics, which has shown weird and unexplainable events that have baffled some of the greatest minds in science (e.g., double split experiment, quantum leap, entanglement). There is increasing evidence and theories which suggest that this world is moved by some type of intelligent mind, which physicists and scientists are still trying to identify. But I say, has already been identified in the Bible. It just makes perfect sense.
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