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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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I apologize to all of you if I managed to blow up on any of you.
It’s a Process..
I’ll be back just know that you have all been a help to me..
and I love being an atheist now.
@Italianish...” feeling like I don’t have the capacity to do good or love on my own..”
Pick up a piece of paper. Stand with it in front of you. Is this piece of paper “the only thing stopping you from...(pick one “murder”)”.
And yes, you love without it too.
It’s been “you” all along. You’re just setting a new standard. Take some credit for it.
Thank you everyone and even you Lion IRC..
you can stay..
let’s try to have a healthy debate..
It’s within my own personal belief that we should let bygones be bygones..
Forgiveness is a beautiful thing wether it’s religious or not.
Because if we forgive the one who hurt us, then we’re not only letting them off the hook but we’re letting ourselves off some hooks.. hooks of grudges anger and possibly hate.. forgive. Clean slate. You don’t have to forget but you can keep forgiving until whatever it is that someone did doesn’t have power over us anymore
Biblically yes we should forgive so I want to say...
Lion IRC I believe you’re a Christian..
Of course by all means love yourself for you and you alone. Try not to let your beliefs box you in. Do some research on your own. Try to
Think critically.. I don’t know if people here are a certain way towards you because of something you did or said..
I believe debates should be healthy and non toxic from both sides..
a persons religious views doesn’t make the person more correct than one who doesn’t believe. It doesn’t make a person better..
what matters is how you treat yourself and how you treat others.
My beliefs dragged me down and all up and around different places in life.
I want to love myself for me and I’ve been struggling with it daily.. but there isn’t a day I don’t put in some effort.
Despite whatever your beliefs are, just be kind to yourself and us. I will do the same..
as for people who don’t believe I want the same
For you..
it doesn’t have to be war between opposing beliefs..
Although I have to say.. that when Christians come on out of nowhere to try to spread the gospel sometimes they make others feel unworthy and inferior.. it makes us feel small if we believe what you say is true, on the other hand it’s also annoying. I understand at a level of goodness that some Christians do it because they genuinely care about others going to heaven.
But some of us know how to live heaven on earth away from
The Bible and god.
We all have our own issues.. and I feel like a lot of you have been kinda mean toward Lion IRC I don’t know his intentions or yours or what went on in the past..
but if we debate can we at least try to let it be healthy? From both sides.. I’m an atheist guys I’m almost
Completely
Free and I see clearer now than I used to. Thank you again for all the help.
And I’m sure at the core level you’re all wonderful people some of you have shown in ways that my eyes have seen more than others. But I’m sure if I look
Again with the correct perception I will see it more.
@Italianish Re: "I don’t know if people here are a certain way towards you (Lion) because of something you did or said.."
In an effort to help put your mind at ease a bit, our wonderful Lion was a parasitic troll. Plain and simple. Notice I used "was", as in past tense, as in he is no longer with us due to his (rather amateurish) trolling activities. And from my experiences on this site, there is NO WAY of having a genuine and productive discussion with an individual whose sole intention is to purposely disrupt and distort the legitimate discussions of others. And my personal view of folks like Lion is they deserve ZERO respect and no form of common courtesy. As far as I am concerned, they are good only for cheap entertainment and (sometimes) a useful means of allowing other site members to highlight various aspects of religious nonsense. Fear not, however. Because even with Lion being booted into the Netherworld, rest assured there will soon be another who will arrive to fill his shoes.... *chuckle*...
@ TM
At least we know where all the odd socks are going from the laundry.....
HU?
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
I just want to say that so far you have stuck out the most to me Tin-Man. When I go here I think of your posts and how kind you were to me and I
Am
Grateful. I just wanted to put out there that how you were to me, has been beautiful.
I wanna re read all the posts here from everyone, I just recently figured out that people can post in between posts that were already posted and I missed a lot.
I’m sure most of you have been kind, I wanna re read them for my self education and to come
Back and say thank you to all of you.
It’s like you all helped me set myself free from
Religion and that’s a biggie ❤️
Just my 2 cents worth:
If a god does exist, who is powerful enough to create a universe & everything in it, & he wants everybody to know him, why would this god use a book to communicate with everyone. God could have used any technology he wanted to communicate with us.
And if this god DID decide a book was the best way to communicate with us, then why didn't he write it himself, instead of using humans to write it? God could have written a book that everybody, regardless of their language or reading ability could understand, & that is NOT open to interpretation.
The other problem with using a book to communicate is that if people don't like the book, they will alter the text, or create their own book to replace it, which is what has happened, & why we have many competing religions.
A powerful universe creating god using a book written by sheep herders to communicate with us makes absolutely no sense!
There is also no way to know if the "author" of the bible is the good guy, or the bad guy. The bible says 'god is good', but would you expect the bad guy to say anything else? The god of the bible appears to do, & demand from his followers some pretty evil shit. The so called bad guy, satan, dosnt do much bad stuff at all! The only evil stuff satan did, was at the behest of god in the book of job..
Plus in Judaism satan was on gods side. In Christianity satan is gods enemy
@Italianish.
"Plus in Judaism satan was on gods side. In Christianity satan is gods enemy"
I didn't know that.
Do you think it could possibly have anything to do with the different perceptions of Satan in Judaism and in Christianity? ?
IE:
"Jewish View
He (Satan) is clearly subordinate to God, a member of His suite (Heb. Bene ha-elokim), who is unable to act without his permission. Nowhere is he in any sense a rival of God. The Encyclopedia Judaica The Christian claim that it was Satan who created evil is utterly fraudulent according to our Tanach: I (God) form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7 God creates all things, not simply good things. There isn't a single verse in the entire Tanach that states that Satan ever created evil or ever disobeyed a command from God. Satan is an obedient servant of God in the Tanach who serves the role of man's accuser in God's court. "
Creation of Temptation
God created the temptation to do evil partially to test our loyalty, and partially to improve us. That is why the word (Satan- שטן) in Hebrew literally means an adversary (Numbers 22:22) that comes to challenge us. We find this notion throughout the Book of Job, where God gives permission to the Satan to challenge the righteous Job. In fact, one of the most dramatic and powerful expressions of man’s struggle with God and his conscience involves Job and Satan. God had given Satan permission to afflict Job with all manner of hardships and misfortune. In turn, Job loses his family and possessions, and is stricken with boils and disease. As he sits in sheer agony, his close colleagues remark, “Your piety is your foolishness.” Even his wife chews him out, saying, "Are you still holding fast to your integrity? Curse God, and die." But Job tells them, "You speak as one who is despicable. Should we accept only the good from God and not also accept the evil?”(Job 2:9‑10)
"Christian View
In Christian belief, Satan is a fallen angel that has freedom of choice and rebels against God. Christians conveniently use the “Satan, to explain any evil or irrational behavior (such as non belief in Jesus as messiah or god). The New Testament is fertile ground for this outlook. It is only here that Satan becomes a wicked, rebellious angel, which quite likely evolved the character called Satan into an evil angel and enemy of God based on theological Persian dualism where such a construct is present."
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/the-jewish-view-of-satan
Suggestion:. Before making such claims , perhaps do a bit of research. The opinion you have presented sounds suspiciously like that of a Christian apologist who knows little or nothing about Judaism. .There is also more than a hint of antisemitism, imo.
I'm not saying the above is the last word, only that it presents a different view from yours.
You know, I’ve done some research in the Bible and I’d like Lion IRC to see these.
I’m trying to figure out something here and it’s not only a contradicted verse it’s contradicting stories as well( not just red vs purple robes )
Mark 1:9-12 and Matthew 3:16-17/4:1-11 state that after baptism Jesus goes into the wilderness to be tempted of(once stating immediately)in context with both sections 40 days with fasting.
While John 1:29-51, look from
Baptism to how many days went by it’s in full description. To John 2:1-12 states the third day.. which is after baptism. Jesus was apparently at a wedding.
So is there 2 Jesus’?
Apparently he was tempted immediately after the baptism.. which btw God said two different things concerning his son being his son. And Jesus spent 40 days fasting in the wilderness to
Be tempted by the devil.
But in John he was at a wedding 3 days after baptism performing miracles.
These contradictions are huge.
As well as Jesus ascended into heaven on the day of resurrection, while
In acts he ascended about 40 days after.
These are supposedly eye witness accounts.. that were also inspired by the Holy Spirit. Wasn’t it God himself who is the author of the Bible? Or as the saying goes.
1. If God was true he wouldn’t lie, if he wanted to be represented as truth and his word being truth, his word would be perfect( these aren’t just common typos, these are stories that contradict each other in the Bible)
Wouldn’t he want his book to be perfect if he wanted people to be saved? Which btw was one of his desires that all would be saved and come to repentance, but he himself caused delusions that made homosexuals reprobate; meaning they couldn’t turn to Jesus to get saved.. while Jesus taught things in a way that some
Would hear and not be saved.. almost as if he was teaching
Some purposely in a way and didn’t Want Them to be saved. (Jesus and the Father are one)
2. The Biblical gospels describe different Jesus’
I got a book called Nailed by David Fitzgerald he discusses in detail what i mean.
I didn’t detail all of my claims with scriptural evidence If you can’t find verses let me know and I’ll find them later.
Edit: added more information.
@Italianish...
I don’t know if Lion will respond, but (dripping sarcasm) Id say...
You don’t understand what a day is in the bible. It can mean anything. For example Adam and Eve dying “in the day they eat” - God didn’t lie, just a “day” is longer... so using this type of “logic” or “principle” (I feel sooo dishonest typing those words in this paragraph), I’d say maybe the “40
Days” happened within the 3 days before the wedding (maybe the day was really an hour)...I’m no apologist, BUT I’m sure there’s a great explanation out there!!!
This response is based only on my understanding of kitty-kat reasoning ...
@Whitefire13
What I Remember about Adam and Eve dying in the day they ate of the fruit as a
Studying Christian years ago was that they technically did die the day the ate the fruit. Not physically, but spiritually. They were made innocent, without the knowledge of good and evil and when they disobeyed God (sinned) they lost their innocence and were given the curse wrought by sin which was death or the ability to die one day. Even though they didn’t physically die yet.
Edited
Edit again.. this made me so mad not you in anyway but
The way the people who believe explain the Bible then I
Thought .. wait
The world was created in 6 days, 7th day was rest.
If we look at it that way the weeks are 7 days with 1 day of rest. I believe a day is still a day.
Italianish... lol. I was given the same explanation. Too bad god didn’t let Adam and Eve in on the “secret” ...poor buggers, waiting to kick the bucket, feeling relief wash over them when they woke up the next morning...
☺️ I hope
You’re doing well during the pandemic Whitefire13.
By the way I’ve done bible studies with Jehovahs witnesses, was friends with one and went into their church. I know of some of their contradictory beliefs to Christianity.. some how I
Thought being non denominational Christian was the best way to go because there was no hidden agenda....but I’m sure there was a lot.
I went to a service once and had this
Woman teaching us that we should listen to the voice of God..
and giving a period of time as to why..one of her reasons was given from her experience where she said that she asked God if she should do this or that and “his initial response” was just “yes”
Haha looking back
At it ugh, I have no words.
And no it wasn’t a problem that it was a woman who said it the problem was that I had to follow a voice she was giving us a reason to be schizophrenic and doing whatever the voice tells us.. given the information she gave it didn’t seem to matter too much if it was aligned with the word or not.
Edited on her teaching
Edit for some reason God was Godoy so I changed it and added a word.
Another good set of contradictions is how peter and Andrew were called by Jesus.
@ Italianish...at the risk of sounding like a broken record, two books which will supply explanations for the contradictions in both the Old and New Testaments without apologetics.
I only repost these as I don't know if you have noticed my earlier posts. Nearly every question on differences and contradictions in the Bible you have asked about here on AR can be answered by these two books.
1. "Who Wrote the Bible" (meaning the Old Testament) by Richard Friedman This reference is a complete, free to download, book: https://epdf.pub/who-wrote-the-bible-2nd-edition.html
2. "Liberating the Gospels" Rev Shelby Spong, a theist who denies all superstitions in Christianity except for the resurrection. His main point is the Gospels and most of the New Testament were written by cultural Jewish Christians who deliberately designed their writings on the basis of the liturgical practice of the synagogue in reading the Pentateuch during the course of every year to celebrate traditional festivals climaxing with the Passover for obvious reason. None of the gospels have anything to do with historicity, and everything to do with Jewish liturgical practices. The individual writers, copying over each others shoulders,writing for different audiences, and driven by the vanities of authorship, uninspired by any god, relied on their own literary devices to achieve a common goal and hence the contradictions.
Cheers and keep safe.
Thank you grinseed I appreciate it.. I’m feeling better lately feeling freer sometimes because of my indoctrination I feel guilty for feeling
Grateful that the Bible isn’t true.
MT 4:18-20, MK 1:16-18 (One story about choosing Peter as a disciple.)
LK 5:2-11 (A different story.)
JN 1:35-42 (Still another story.)
Can someone help me understand this please I have been having great difficulty focusing and keeping the facts together.
Italianish, here's one short incomplete answer for you.
Luke wrote his gospel to follow the liturgical needs of the early Jewish Christians worshipping in the synagogue which centred around readings of the Pentateuch. He uses Mark and Matthew as a guide. He copies from both but his gospel is the longest as it covers more details. In some instances he takes single sentences from Mark or Matthew and can make entire chapters from them and uses references from the Torah to fill and add detail and to depict the life of Jesus again selecting verses from the Pentaeuch for the overriding purpose of showing a connection between Jesus and Moses, Isaiah, and other Jewish legends. All the Jewish gospel writers were promoting Jesus to other Jews as a legitimate representative of God.
In Exodus, Moses kills the Egyptian overseer who beat another Israelite. Moses buries the body. The next day he challenges two other Israelites for fighting and they challenge his authority as a murderer. This is a rejection of sorts. Alarmed that his crime is known Moses leaves town and ends up minding sheep in Midian where he comes across the speaking burning bush that is not consumed. A very supernatural moment. The bush is God who gives him a quest to return to Egypt to free the children of Israel.
This is the text being read in the synagogue. Luke attempts to match this reading in Luke 4 and 5.
In Luke 4, Jesus preaches to a hostile crowd in Nazareth who condemn him for heresy and take him to a mountain to throw him off but he miraculously evades them. Another rejection of sorts. Later in Luke 5:1-11 Jesus goes to Capernaeum and meets Simon/Peter. Jesus suggests Simon/Peter should cast his net just one more time after a fruitless day of fishing and Simon hauls up a catch so huge it fills two boats. Another supernatural moment. Simon/Peter falls to his knees and acknowledges Jesus as lord. They sally forth to save the children of Israel. Luke does not mention Andrew, Simon's brother, who is mentioned by Mark and Matthew. So much for accurate reportage.
This is a simplified, super-lite, exposition and I didn't inlcude much of Matthew or even mention John who followed Luke in the fishing story, but used it later in his narration, in the last chapter, no less, chapter 21. And all this illustrates that the gospels were written by various men for different reasons. But none of them were writing to create an accurate historical record. Luke later attempts a little history in Acts but Rev. Shelby reveals he again follows the liturgical template. All of them were writing fictional stories that adhered to the template of the Pentateuch. None of their writings are historical documents or evidence. Matthew left out a lot of Marks work where it suited him and Luke did the same to both Mark and Matthew.
And I add this little bomb to the mix. There is reasonable and even compelling evidence that Mark also used the Illiad as a model for his gospel. For more details type "Homer and Mark" into your search field and read up on Denis McDonald.
To get a better understanding of the gospels as Jewish literature, read Spong's book "Liberating the Gospels".
@Grinseed
"And I add this little bomb to the mix. There is reasonable and even compelling evidence that Mark also used the Illiad as a model for his gospel. For more details type "Homer and Mark" into your search field and read up on Denis McDonald."
I love this. We read the Illiad in high school. I believed myself a Christian at the time. I remember thinking, "These fictional Illiad accounts are totally indistinguishable from the stories in the Bible. One is true, the other is false, but I can't tell the difference.
@Italianis: He he he he he he ,,,,,, You used the word "facts" in reference to Bible quotes.... No wonder you have difficulty focusing.
They are "STORIES' about choosing Peter. They are not "FACTS' about choosing Peter. Bible stories make 'CLAIMS'. Claims are neither facts nor evidence without independent verification.
I read Luke 24 and Acts 1 and compared them. Unless there's a story in between and Jesus came back after ascension to ascend again.
He ascended in Luke 24, on the day of resurrection.
In Acts he was around for like 40 days.
So what are your comments on this..
My mind can't differentiate between The multiple meeting Peter stories and the way Jesus was betrayed as by Judas as well as the order of events when it comes to the story surrounding the fig tree..
@ Italianish
"He ascended in Luke 24, on the day of resurrection.
In Acts he was around for like 40 days.
So what are your comments on this.."
One day this dude heard a wild folk story and put it to pen. This story had been passed word to mouth for a few years. Eventually what this dude wrote down went on to become "Luke".
One day this dude heard a wild folk story and put it to pen. This story had been passed word to mouth for a few years. Eventually what this dude wrote down went on to become "Acts".
Is this explanation more plausible than some due being the son of god and being resurrected? ? It explains the obvious contradictions.
Italianish...I can relate to part of the “problem”. It’s the indoctrination “talking”. The voice and mind “filling” in the blanks.
It took years for me to reprogram and un-indoctrinate myself. :)
@ Italianish, hello mate, still struggling I see. You might as well accept the fact the bible is full of inconsistencies.
The source of your confusion is that you have been raised in the Catholic Church to believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God. You have a life-long emotional investment in accepting everything in the Bible as true. This single concept has been drilled into you on a daily basis through your devotion to the Church for most of your life and has become as much a part of you as the way you think.
But now that you read it with critical assessment you identify the fact that the four stories are different in many ways and there is a conflict surrounding how one story can be the absolute truth when there are four different versions so evidently different. You realise they cannot all be true. Intellectually you can identify the gospels and the bible are full of glaring inconsistencies but emotionally you are still struggling to accept it. You need to decide if you believe the Bible is the word of a god or just a book compiled by men.
You need to keep reminding yourself that the gospels of the Bible were written by four different men, in different places, at different times, under different social and political circumstances, even though they were following the same storyline, they wrote their own versions. If there were a God exercising editorial control one would expect he would ensure his inerrant book to be just a lttle more consistent or actually perfectly consistent.
I gave you a link to Richard Friedman's Who Wrote the Bible. Read it and you wont be so confused. Friedman is no staunch atheist. He is a practicing Jew who defends the authenticity of the Bible but openly admits the errors and inconsistencies found in it.
Are you aware that there are many gospels that did not make it to the Bible? Just to name a few, The Gospel Of Judas, The Gospel Of Mary Magdalene, The Gospel Of Thomas, The Infancy Gospel Of Thomas, The Gospel Of The Savior, The Gospel Of Truth and many many more that are still available online. Then there are any number that were written but lost in history.
There is only one accepted story about Harry Potter, but there are thousands of fan fiction versions on line as well. Nothing new. But Harry Potter isn't a true story either.
Try this link for a fuller list of unsucessful gospels and their descriptions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Gospels
Oh and the story of the fig tree. It never happened. It is part of a literary device commonly used in Jewish writing called a pericope. If you read more than just that verse you will discover it is part of a slightly larger story: Jesus curses the fig tree for not bearing fruit. Then he clears the Temple. The next morning the apostles notice the fig tree is dead. The three events display not Jesus's impatience for trees not bearing fruit out of season but a lesson of what awaits those who defy God. The fig tree murder is just a bit of mythology to illustrate a point.
Hope that helps.
Thank you grinseed I appreciate that you help me as much as you do. Its not that I don't see it. I want to thank all of those who have contributed to me for help. I hope you all find blessings in this world because of it.
Not christian blessings haha. I bought some books and I'm gaining clarity as I move along a little here and there.
@Italianish
Hey there, big guy. Perhaps try this...
God: Supposedly an ALL KNOWING/ALL POWERFUL PERFECT God, right?
The bible: Supposedly the PERFECT words of this very same God, right?
That being the case, it stands to reason that if there is simply ONE teeny-tiny little mistake or inconsistency or contradiction in the bible, then it cannot be considered perfect, right? YET, this book that supposedly contains the PERFECT words of an all-knowing, all-powerful, PERFECT god is SO FULL OF SO MANY inconsistencies and contradictions and errors that it just about takes another book all on its own to list them all. See what I'm sayin'? Hang in there, though, buddy. You'll get the hang of it all in due time.
What are the differences? Indoctrination won't let me see.
John 1:35-42
Jesus’ Public Ministry, First Converts
35 Again the next day John was standing [a]with two of his disciples, 36 and he looked at Jesus as He walked, and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God!” 37 The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. 38 And Jesus turned and saw them following, and *said to them, “What do you seek?” They said to Him, “Rabbi (which translated means Teacher), where are You staying?” 39 He *said to them, “Come, and you will see.” So they came and saw where He was staying; and they stayed with Him that day, for it was about the [b]tenth hour. 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. 41 He *found first his own brother Simon and *said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which translated means [c]Christ). 42 He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of [d]John; you shall be called Cephas” (which is translated [e]Peter).
Luke 5:2-11
and He saw two boats lying at the edge of the lake; but the fishermen had gotten out of them and were washing their nets. 3 And He got into one of the boats, which was Simon’s, and asked him to put out a little way from the land. And He sat down and began teaching the [a]people from the boat. 4 When He had finished speaking, He said to Simon, “Put out into the deep water and let down your nets for a catch.” 5 Simon answered and said, “Master, we worked hard all night and caught nothing, but [b]I will do as You say and let down the nets.” 6 When they had done this, they enclosed a great quantity of fish, and their nets began to break; 7 so they signaled to their partners in the other boat for them to come and help them. And they came and filled both of the boats, so that they began to sink. 8 But when Simon Peter saw that, he fell down at Jesus’ [c]feet, saying, “Go away from me Lord, for I am a sinful man!” 9 For amazement had seized him and all his companions because of the catch of fish which they had taken; 10 and so also were [d]James and John, sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon. And Jesus said to Simon, “Do not fear, from now on you will be catching men.” 11 When they had brought their boats to land, they left everything and followed Him.
Matthew 4:18-20
The First Disciples
18 Now as Jesus was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon who was called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19 And He *said to them, “[a]Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.” 20 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him.
@Italianish: Why not reference "Parallel Gospels." and do your own work? http://www.para-gospel.com/full
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