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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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It didn't take long for the religious bigotry to surface, did it. Odd that people in the 21st century can have a problem with two consenting adults loving each other because they happen to have been born gay, but are ok to worship a deity that is one of the most immoral barbaric mass murdering genocidal megalomaniacs in all of fiction?
Okay, so it had nothing to do with Mary.. so there’s no father in law..
Both genealogy’s come from
David, from both of his sons, to Joseph who is Jesus Step Father, not biological, remember he was born from a
Virgin, not of Joseph’s seed
Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Apparently biblically.. Jesus was born from a
Virgin which God delivered unto her, without her making intercourse with Joseph..
Jesus would basically be a seed possibly not even a sperm.. even though he could be one just the work through the egg.. whatever the case the Bible says nothing other than seed.
Not only do these two genealogies contradict each other, when I can find the one in genesis you might see another contradiction.
So Biblically Jesus is a seed from
David to Joseph, even tho Joseph didn’t give Mary his seed, one genealogy was from
David’s sin king Solomon, another from Nathan.. with mostly different descendants, some match.. yet how could they even if they both come
From
Two different sons with other descendants that had nothing to do with the ones who matched.. so make it all the way down to Joseph as his seed from
David into Mary, when God delivered Jesus, and she was a virgin, I’m sure the Bible doesn’t discuss Joseph taking his seed and implanting it though Mary.
So you see.. even if the Bible can’t always be taken from a literalists perspective, yet also metaphorical. It needs to be taken at face value in order to believe it as infallible and inerrant truth.. complete truth.
We see here that just by this it can’t.
Not to mention, Judas Iscariot died twice, with no mention of a resurrection, two different ways and with each way it was different.
One he bought the field, second the chief priests bought the field.
One he killer himself, the other he just died.
So You see, I can’t take the truly infallible and
Inerrant Bible at face value as complete truth if
It
Isn’t.
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@Italianish
By golly, I just had to take a moment to let you know you are doing very well with this contradiction stuff. Keep up the good work... *thumbs up*...
This is a very common misconception among a lot of theists I've encountered, the misconception that atheists argue against theistic claims because they are motivated to disbelieve theistic claims, rather than disbelieving them because it is abundantly clear that theism is an empty bag, that makes the most outrageously erroneous claims, and hasn't a shred of objective evidence to support it.
As an atheist i can honestly I don't care what the bible or the koran says, the axiomatic fact that no atheist can demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity is more than enough reason for me to withhold belief.
So one more time then, what objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity or deities?
Fine I shall ask just one question, and we shall see if the bible directly contradicts your answer.
According to the bible, has anyone ever seen god?
Now I have no opinion either way, as an atheist I don't believe any deity exists, so do take your time....
Well Jesus has seen God.
But no, it's not possible for a (mortal) human to fully see God - in His entirety.
It would be like claiming to have seen the uni/multiverse. To see the multiverse you would have to be outside of 4 dimensional space time.
Now, whilst the bible makes it clear that seeing God as He is isn't possible for living humans, there are dozens of (uncontroversial) verses which affirm our ability to partially glimpse the glory of God. Eg. Exodus 33:23
Exodus 33:11
English Standard Version
11 Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.
Genesis 32:30
English Standard Version
30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel,7 saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”
Judges 13:22
English Standard Version
22 And Manoah said to his wife, n“We shall surely die, for we have seen God.”
Contradiction
noun
1. a combination of statements, ideas, or features which are opposed to one another.
2. a situation in which inconsistent elements are present.
3. the statement of a position opposite to one already made.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum
@ Lion IRC
"To see the multiverse you would have to be outside of 4 dimensional space time."
At present, the multiverse is just a concept. There is zero proof it exists or not. It may have qualities, but at present we have absolutely zero idea what they may be. So to state that a multiverse can not be seen (or observed) from within this four dimensional space-time is stating a quality we do or do not know exists.
@Italianish
When nature disagrees with the scripture, what do you choose?
Archbishop James Ussher calculated that creation began Saturday, October 22, 4004 BC, at 6 pm. I do not accept Ussher's findings (by a few billion years).
@David Re: "Archbishop James Ussher calculated that creation began Saturday, October 22, 4004 BC, at 6 pm."
Well, that is just plain ridiculous, if you ask me. 6 pm EXACTLY? Not 5:53 pm or maybe 6:02 pm? Exactly 6 pm, huh? I just really find that hard to believe. Was he rounding off to the nearest hour, or was he just guessing? I mean, if the archbishop can't be more specific than that, then how are we suppose to take him seriously?
That's a straw man fallacy. Now that you have used your desperate rationalisation lets try this again.
According to the bible, has anyone ever seen god?
Nope.
It's not a strawman.
Skeptics Annotated Bible lists this as a glaring contradiction.
If you agree with me that it's NOT then *cheers* :)
BTW I already answered your question about seeing God.
https://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/bible-contradiction-h...
@Lion IRC
No one here made that claim, ipso facto it is a straw man fallacy, nice dodge though, but fairly disingenuous.
Yes you have responded to my question, but not before I had repeated it, check the times of the posts. Here is my verbatim response...
Exodus 33:11
English Standard Version
11 Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.
Genesis 32:30
English Standard Version
30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel,7 saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”
Judges 13:22
English Standard Version
22 And Manoah said to his wife, n“We shall surely die, for we have seen God.”
Contradiction
noun
1. a combination of statements, ideas, or features which are opposed to one another.
2. a situation in which inconsistent elements are present.
3. the statement of a position opposite to one already made.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum
Sheldon
"According to the bible, has anyone ever seen god?"
I know it's been over 60 years, but I'm still pretty sure I was taught (catholic school) that nobody can see the face of God and live. That on Mt Sinai God spoke to Moses through a burning bush. Does this mean I've been wrong for all those years? How dreadful! I don't know how I will be able to summon the will to live.
Not that it matters, even a little bit. Pretty sure modern archaeology has shown that it is most unlikely that the Exodus from Egypt ever happened. That Moses never existed, and that the Jews were never enslaved as a people in Egypt.** That Canaan was a client state of Egypt. IE That the Jews WERE Canaanites.
On discussing various obtuse/vague/contradictory bits of either the Torah or the New Testament, I sometimes get carried away and forget my basic position: That as far as I can tell, the Torah is the mythology of Judaism and the New Testament is the mythology of Christianity. That neither are reliable as history. . IE THAT THEY ARE MADE UP. That puts the nonsense of apologetics, biblical hermeneutics and exegesis into perspective for me.
It does seem to me that at times, biblical history and archaeology are given special treatment, and held to less rigorous standards of scholarship and proof than 'secular history' . At least by some believing biblical scholars and archaeologists. But not by me.
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((9)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
**minor point; the number of existing Israelites is given as was 600,000 MALES, with their families. As far as I can tell, the entire population of Egypt at the time of the putative exodus was between 3 and 4 million.
@ Cranky
Yep. low estimate about 2.5 million persons, in an area of 60,000 Km. IF my math is correct Yep. low estimate about 2.5 million persons, in an area of 60,000 Km2.. In perspective if the entire tribes of Hebrew Israel were to spread equally in Sinai then it would have approx a population density of 0.024/Km2* . Yet, somehow they were lost for 40 years.........either shit leadership or it is a made up story considering Sinai is 210km wide east to west. A column of 2.5 million people marching 8 abreast would take up approx 156km in length....it is impossible to get lost in such an area with that size crowd.
*It is less now and no-one gets lost.
No of course I realise no such thing, you do know what atheism means, right? Again your analogy is facile, as it ignores obvious contradictions already offered, and not addressed by you, in favour of straw man analogies, and so I ask again...
According to the bible, has anyone ever seen god?
The point I'm making is that issuing an order to do "A" then later issuing an order to do "B" is NOT a contradiction. This seems pretty obvious to me. Where's the problem?
Yes, I know what atheism is.
I already answered your question about seeing God. Please read my answer before repeating the question.
https://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/bible-contradiction-h...
@Lyin Re: "The point I'm making is that issuing an order to do "A" then later issuing an order to do "B" is NOT a contradiction. This seems pretty obvious to me. Where's the problem?"
Well, here's the problem and I'll go back to your pathetic traffic light metaphor since you ignored my follow up comment.
First, Almighty Gawd issues a GENERIC and unambiguous order, "Thou shalt not kill".
Then later, said Almighty gets his/her/its panties all in a bunch about some tribe that doesn't worship his holy ass and orders his brain dead followers to SPECIFICALLY "Kill Them All…Their Children And Infants" (there's many specific examples of this in the Holy Book).
... and your great brain cannot see the contradiction here? Can I spell it out any more clearly, the contradiction between the GENERAL and the SPECIFIC?
@LIon IRC
The point is that there are glaring contradictions in the bible, and your analogies are facile as they ignore these, for instance the claim in Exodus 33:20
Exodus 33:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
Which is unequivocally contradicted here:
Exodus 33:11
English Standard Version
11 Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.
Genesis 32:30
English Standard Version
30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel,7 saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”
QED
Are historical records derived from a deity with limitless knowledge and power? I'm afraid this analogy is as facile as all your others. However since you have waved that one away, try this one:
According to the bible, has anyone ever seen god?
I already answered your question about seeing God.
https://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/bible-contradiction-h...
You need to check the times of posts against the time you answered, then you will see I had asked the question before you had yet offered an answer. However your answer is in fact contradicted by the bible...
Exodus 33:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
Which is unequivocally contradicted here:
Exodus 33:11
English Standard Version
11 Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.
Genesis 32:30
English Standard Version
30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel,7 saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”
QED
I was only referencing my answer in the same spirit of repetitiveness as your repetitive asking of the same question.
Now, you asked has anyone (in the bible) seen God and I gave you the answer that yes, "there are dozens of (uncontroversial) verses which affirm our ability to partially glimpse the glory of God. Eg. Exodus 33:2".
Hmm, answer a direct question with a reference to another post. Where have I seen that dog and pony act before?
Lion IRC, you can change your name and attempt to disguise how you phrase posts. But your basic behaviour you can not hide.
WUT?
I was asked the question here and I answered it here.
WTF do you mean "change your name...disguise how you post" ?
No I don't think they can, and differing accounts seems like a euphemism for contradiction if ever there was one. A contradiction is not limited to opposing views, it can be defined as "a situation in which inconsistent elements are present." However lets test your latest claim, since you claim to be objective about the bible...
According to the bible, has anyone ever seen god?
Well now you're quibbling about the definition of "contradiction".
I think a biblical contradiction would entail the two differing writers both insisting that their version of events was correct. IE. Contradicting each other.
But a typo wouldn't meet this criteria, neither does two eye witnesses seeing the same event from different perspectives with differing versions. Both my statements about Robert Menzies are true albeit 'contradictory' by your definition of what a contradiction is.
@Lion IRC ….
"I think a biblical contradiction would entail the two differing writers both insisting that their version of events was correct. IE. Contradicting each other."
You mean like...…..
Mathew 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt.
and
Luke 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
Is that the sort of thing ?
….. so which was it ?
Egypt or Jerusalem ?
Where's the contradiction?
You think these two events are mutually exclusive?
...that they couldn't possibly be consecutive? One came before the other?
@ Lion IRC....
"Where's the contradiction?"
Such prevarication...…..
"You think these two events are mutually exclusive?"
Pretty much …. Egypt OR Jerusalem ….. it cannot be both.
"that they couldn't possibly be consecutive?"
No..... a cursory examination of the texts reveals that is not possible ….
"One came before the other?"
No …. as I said this is not possible...…
The reason for flight makes a withdrawal to Egypt the safest option ….. but Luke says they had to wait for the "period of purification" to pass ( 40 days) and then and only then could Mary approach the Temple in Jerusalem.... to present Jesus to the lord.
So just how do you see the time line for this event...… Jesus is not presented in the temple for perhaps two or three years then the family returns after herods death and presents him at the temple.....
OR
with Herod and his agents running around the country looking for them do they travel back to the capital to the temple itself perform the presentation and then finally "leg it " for Egypt traversing the country once more.....
so come on.... just how do you see this happening ?……. and where is the textual evidence for your idea.
(this has the makings of a Dan Brown book...… only needs a speed boat chase )
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