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I have remained reticent as ROYISM and I have something of a history on here, but since I don't want to pre judge, or appear churlish, I will say I welcome this news, and hope the transition is as pain free as possible for you and those you care about.
Welcome to the insentient indifferent universe, trust me when I say everything will be fine...
@Sheldon
Yes we definitely have a history, and pretty tortuous one at that! Thank you for your kind words.
Well DAMN Royism, Here is a feather for your hat >>>>>>>>- You are half way there. Christianity is based on the exact same bullshit and you can follow that with the rest of the abrahamic faiths and on to the rest of the faiths on this silly little God believing planet.
Instead of doing the whole shotgun thing, why don't you just put ONE AND ONLY ONE, reason you might still believe in God or gods and see what happens. Stay focused on one thing at a time an you will find your God belief falling away just as your belief in Islam. There are NO FOUNDATIONS for such beliefs. NONE. But to see this, you will have to be honest with yourself and the responses you get AND STAY FOCUSED on the topic you introduce. Stay on one thing at a time and one by one they will all fade away.
HI Cognostic
For me the only thing that still leaves me a little confused about the existence of God is the fine tuning and the design aspect. I cant somehow digest the idea that an organ like our eye for example could have come about through some random, undirected process. That's the one and only thing. Nothing else.
@ ROYISM
Here it is, the evolution of the eye.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X1iwLqM2t0&t=21s
That isn't the claim of the theory of evolution (if that is what you were inferring).
@Royism
Good morning, Roy. (Well, morning here for me, at least... *grin*...)
Glad to hear you are doing well. Sounds like your escape so far is going easier for you than it did for me when I finally cut loose. Hell, I may almost be a little jealous... *chuckle*... Nevertheless, I do hope your transition remains smooth for you.
As for your fine tuning and design issue, if THAT is your biggest "speedbump" to overcome, then I would say you've got it easy at this point. (Personal opinion.) Here is something I would like to share with you in the hopes it will allow you to get past that annoying little doubt you are having. Keep in mind, you may have already "heard" me say this on here several times already, but you were not able to fully understand or "digest" it due to the religious fog that was clouding your mind at the time. Perhaps now, though, you can see it more clearly from your new perspective...
I have always been a science/math nerd for as long as I can remember. Always my favorite subjects in school. As a kid, anytime I saw Nova or Cosmos listed in the TV Guide, I would be glued in front of the television watching it. For entertainment, I always preferred sci-fi shows/movies/books. Space 1999, Star Trek, Star Wars, Invasion of the Body Snatchers, and on and on and on. Simply could not get enough of it. Bottom line, learning anything I could about biology, physics, space, and various other science subjects was simply fun for me. Still is.
Now, that being said, I am obviously NOT even remotely an expert or authority in ANY scientific field. (To be honest, I never had the mental discipline to be a scientist. I HATE doing research... *chuckle*...) No, for me it has always been a simple fascination of it all. From the unimaginable vastness of space, to the mindblowing intricacies of microscopic organisms/systems. From the ability of a spider to weave an intricate web, to the human brain. An organic computing device so amazingly complex and mysterious it has created everything from sublime works of art, to vehicles that allowed Man to reach out and "touch" our neighboring planets. It is THE "device" responsible for spawning civilization as we know it today. And it is SO complex that it has YET to be able to artificially duplicate its abilities or fully understand how it works. Again, absolutely fascinating stuff. I get an almost overwhelming sense of awe just thinking about it sometimes. So, with all that in mind, back to your eyeball conundrum...
As you are well aware, there are many folks on here who are practically experts in various scientific fields. As such, there are naturally many scientific discussions that take place in regards to god and the bible. For me, that's all fine and dandy, and I do enjoy reading most of those discussions. Always something more to learn. Be that as it may, the fact is none of that has anything to do with why I am an atheist. THE reason I am an atheist is simply because of the bible itself and the fact there are:
A. Countless contradictions and inconsistencies contained in it.
B. It is touted as being the "Perfect Word of God", yet there are literally thousands of different belief systems developed from it, with many of them violently opposed to one another.
C. It contains "teachings" and rules that make ZERO sense, especially for today's modern society. And many of those "rules/teachings" promote/condone bigotry and hate toward others on a level that I find truly disturbing and detestable.
D. I am obviously NOT an all-knowing/all-powerful being. Nevertheless, I am fairly confident I could write a much more simple, clear, concise, and effective book on how people should behave and treat each other in society, regardless of time period or culture.
And finally, E. The god as depicted in the bible is an insecure, narcissistic, egotistical, misogynistic, homophobic, bumbling-idiot, blood-thirsty, homicidal maniac bully with severe anger issues. (Just an observation.) As such, even IF that god were somehow shown to be real (and thank goodness that has not happened), there is no way I could ever have any respect for it, much less worship it.
Like I said, I'm pretty sure you have seen me make those statements before. However, at that time you were viewing them through a very narrow tinted window. Your vision is now cleared and has expanded a bit, so hopefully my words will now strike a different chord with you that will help you on your journey. No science required.
Hi Tin Man
yes all that you said about the scriptures are right. When you take off your colored glasses of years of indoctrination, it's so obvious that these ancient books don't rise above the ignorant standards of their time. However, about God I still got to work more to gain some clarity on that.
@ ROYISM
"I cant somehow digest the idea that an organ like our eye for example could have come about through some random, undirected process."
But it is not random, and it is not undirected.
The mutations that produce changes can be random, but they immediately are tested by the forces of evolution, namely, will they survive and prosper? If a change results in a fatal birth defect, that was the end of the line for that genetic code. But if it contributed to the organism surviving and prospering, then the organism will propagate and the blood line continues, improved over the previous genetic code. Improved not in the sense it will be bigger or faster or stronger or smarter, just that it has better odds of surviving.
HI David Killens
I am familiar with the basics of the evolution theory. But isn't the idea of a natural selection already being discarded in favor of genetic drift? I know I have a lot to read. Perhaps, if I read some of the same stuff that I read before my change, I might be able to see it in a new light... like how I am doing now with my scripture.
@Royism: Natural Selection, Genetic Drift, and Gene Flow Do Not Act in Isolation in Natural Populations. These are not competing theories.
https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/natural-selection-gene...
@ROYISM: Awesome!!!
Fine Tuning - One thing at a time. They are not the same.
I give you "Extremophiles." Organisms that thrive in extreme environments.
Strain 121, a microbe also known as Geogemma barossi, It lives around hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor which expel water of up to 400°C. Thankfully, Strain 121 is non-infectious as it can’t survive the 37°C inside our bodies, too cold. (It can only survive by the vents of volcanoes under the sea)
Conan the Bacterium: Deinococcus radiodurans, can survive extreme dehydration, freezing temperatures and even the low pressure of a vacuum. But what is really amazing is that it is resistant to radiation. It can stand 5000 g rays with no effect at all. Humans begin to die after only 5. The bacterium was found in a can of meat that had been exposed to enough radiation to kill all life. Even if the radiation was bumped up to 15,000 g-rays, 37% of the bacterium would survive.
Tardigrades Read about them yourself... Amazing creatures.
https://www.livescience.com/57985-tardigrade-facts.html
Dec. 2, 2010: NASA-supported researchers have discovered the first known microorganism on Earth able to thrive and reproduce using the toxic chemical arsenic. The Arsenic Bug.
https://gizmodo.com/nasa-finds-new-life-updated-5704158
There are so many of these weird and wonderful creatures who live in amazing habitats that only they are suited for. They are the creatures that evolved to live in those environments.
We can recognize design only by comparing it with that which occurs naturally. We know things are designed because we have evidence of design. "That which is designed must have a designer," that's fine, but all the evidence supports the idea of natural occurrence. If the universe could be different and was different, something else would occur naturally. It might evolve to be intelligent and it might not.
I like Douglas Adam's analogy best. One day a puddle of water woke to consciousness. It looked around itself in amazement. The world was designed just for him. Every inch fit so nicely. Every crack and every groove. His world was designed just for him. The puddle fails to notice that he evolved to fit the depression he finds himself in.
Given the above - We have no idea if the universe is fine tuned for life or not. We have no idea what the conditions are that would make life possible. The extremophiles have blown our concepts of life clear out of the water.
If there was a God could it not create life under arbitrary physical conditions. I could live and function in a vat of acid with those microbes for example. A God is not required to restrict any living thing to any special environment, yet that is what we find.
A nice summation---
“The fact that a human nose (use the letter X to symbolise the nose) is a necessary condition for spectacles to be perched in front of the eyes (use the letter Y to symbolise ‘spectacles being perched in front of the eyes’) does not entail that, because Y is the case, X is in itself necessary. ‘Necessity’ in the logical sense of ‘having to be so’ is not the same thing as the necessity involved in a ‘necessary condition’ – here things have to be so only relative to something else’s being the way it is. In the case of X’s being a necessary condition relative to Y, but not in itself necessary, X could have been different, and if it were so, there would, or at least might, be no Y. For example: if humans did not have noses, spectacles might be worn as goggles are, held before the eyes by an elastic strap. If the universe was find tuned for life, why is 99.9% of it deadly to us?
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/fine-tuning-argument-debunked
If you can figure your way out of Islam, you are obviously not afraid to read and question. The "fine tuning" argument is one of the more complicated appologetics but the more you know, the less water it is going to hold. Hang in there. Let's see what others have to say.
@ROYISM
For what it's worth the evolution of the human eye, as with all else, didn't come about by entirely random processes, natural selection guides evolution, is it is insentient but it is not entirely random, though it will of course include random events.
Also you may want to look up an argument from incredulity fallacy, as you seem to have accidentally slipped into using one there, and while this doesn't directly contradict what you're saying, it means rejecting something because you simply can't believe it is irrational. It's important to remember that methods like science and logic are counter intuitive, if they were not we wouldn't need them, as we would instinctively think objectively and rationally without them. Evolution is a massive scientific theory, this and the timescales involved mean the facts that underpin it can be very hard for people to fully grasp, especially if like me and the majority we have only a cursory understanding of it. What helps is knowing how the scientific process works, and the sheer amount of evidence that supports species evolution.
It is a fact that right now in multiple species every single stage of the evolution of the eye can be seen, from light sensitive skin cells that determine only the difference between light and shadow, enough to indicate the presence of predator or prey under the right conditions, right through to the fully functioning eye of an eagle.
Try the talkorigins website, they have a massive database of the evidence and facts, and even include refutations of a large number of creationist claims.
http://www.talkorigins.org/
Enjoy...
@Roysim... someone will post about the eye. It’s actually really interesting - but I’m not specific enough in explanation.
For me the “ and the design aspect.” was somewhat an obstacle (?!?!) in my mind because I was trained to see design and attribute that design to a designer. Often, to refute evolution, my religion would use the ole’ clock in a box analogy. You may have heard it or a version of it...
Take a Clock apart, put it in a box and shake it. How long would you have to shake it before it reassembles by itself? And will it then be “alive”?
Shittt.... makes sense my theist mind would say, until....you make it fair. Clocks have evolved through humans from sundials on up to atomic timekeeping ...
Take the box. Put in a few items... let’s say pyrite (fools gold), flint and dry grass. Shake the box. How long do you think you need to shake it before you’re saying “holy shiiittt my box is on fire”
HI Whitefire
But the evolution of the clock at every stage was guided by an intelligent mind, right? That's the thing that's eluding me.
How do you know the evolution of the clock was, at every stage, guided by an intelligent mind? We have evidence of clocks being guided by intelligent minds. We have NO EVIDENCE AT ALL OF CLOCKS OCCURRING NATURALLY. NONE! There is nothing confusing here.
Royism, how are you feeling? Is there anything any of us can help with?
I am doing great... living m new found freedom. And I am actually excited about the many new ideas that's going to bombard me as I take my investigations further.
ROYISM, since you have expressed concerns about evolution, I strongly suggest you read books on evolution, valid, respected books that did not come from the hands of apologists or theistic sources.
Knowledge got you to this stage, more knowledge on specific subjects will assist in clearing out any dusty corners. And while I am a strong advocate of evolution, there are much better and more knowledgeable sources you should look to.
Yes David... you are right... I have a lot of reading to do. But to you and to everyone else in this group, I would like to ask, is God really such a thorny issue without a religion. Once the idea of God ceases to influence any of your values or ethics or morality, or any of your other decisions in the real world... then what harm is the belief in a non-personal, unfathomable, abstract concept like God?
Royism: A deist god, one that does not influence your values, ethics, or morality, is exactly the same as no god at all. What's the point in calling "NOTHING AT ALL" a god? What is the point in holding on to it.
Belief in god is allocated to the degree of evidence. The atheist position is not one of "No god exists." That would be a Black Swan Fallacy. "I have never seen a god, therefore god does not exist." The fact of the matter is that something we might identify as a god may exist somewhere. An advanced alien or a blue universe creating bunny. We do not know for certain. We are however, justified in making the claim specific gods do not exist. We are also justified in the claim that "for all we know, no gods exist." We can base the latter claim on 2000 years of failed apologetics, lack of evidence, the failure of prayer, and a world that behaves as if there is no magical interventions. This world behaves exactly as would be expected if there were no god.
HI Cognostic
“The fact of the matter is that something we might identify as a god may exist somewhere. An advanced alien or a blue universe creating bunny. We do not know for certain.”
That’s exactly what I mean. I would feel intellectually comfortable to be an agnostic rather than an atheist.
Agnosticism has nothing to do with BELIEF/
Everyone is agnostic. An agnostic theist is a person who does not know but believes there is a god, some sort of controlling force.
An agnostic atheist asserts that there is no way to know anything about god or gods and so chooses not to believe.
Your issue is a misunderstanding of the word "Agnostic." A = without. Gnosis= knowledge of the existence of god.
A = without. Theist = Belief in god. All knowledge is belief. Not all belief is knowledge. Knowledge can be described as Justified true belief. Like I said above. Allocate belief to the degree of knowledge available/ If you admit there is no knowledge and no way to get that knowledge "AGNOSTIC", why cling to the belief? There is no good reason to believe "ATHEIST."
Agnosticism has nothing to do with BELIEF/
Everyone is agnostic. An agnostic theist is a person who does not know but believes there is a god, some sort of controlling force.
An agnostic atheist asserts that there is no way to know anything about god or gods and so chooses not to believe.
Your issue is a misunderstanding of the word "Agnostic." A = without. Gnosis= knowledge of the existence of god.
A = without. Theist = Belief in god. All knowledge is belief. Not all belief is knowledge. Knowledge can be described as Justified true belief. Like I said above. Allocate belief to the degree of knowledge available/ If you admit there is no knowledge and no way to get that knowledge "AGNOSTIC", why cling to the belief? There is no good reason to believe "ATHEIST."
@cognostic...
You are right. There is not much difference between an agnostic and an atheist.
Probably, my problem is that I m searching for some reason to be moral. May be because al these years God had been my sole moral point of reference
Royism, YOU were your moral point of reference. You just didn’t take credit for it.
@ROYISM: All these years you cherry picked your point of moral reference from the teachings of the Quaran and Islam. There is much in both that are not moral and you have managed to magically navigate your way around all the stuff you did not want to hear. YOU ARE MORE MORAL THAN THE QUARAN AN ISLAM.
Morality is so utterly simple that you have simply stepped over it for the complexity of "God's Magical" word. Life is preferable to death. No pain is preferable to pain. Peace is preferable to war. (*in short, "Well being is preferable/") And then we do the exact same thing you have done your entire life. We look at the evidence and try to behave morally. When a dictate from an authority figure contradicts what we hold as moral, we question it. The difference is that when we question moral dictates, we are not questioning the all powerful god and creator of the universe. We are questioning men, the inventors of that all powerful god thing.
There is no reason to be moral. (No reason that you need accept.) You can throw homosexuals from the tops of buildings, cut the throats of the infidel, have no non-Muslim friends and never question your actions. Or you can dig deep and ask yourself, what is morality and why would I want to be moral?
I want to live in a world where I will not be shot, have my throat slit, or get the shit kicked out of me for simply walking down a street. I want to live in a world where people help one another. Morality has evolved because of people like you and me.
Imagine ancient clans with their clan rules. Even pre language clans. You followed along with your clan. If you did something the leaders didn't like, you got killed, excommunicated, or punished. NOTHING HAS CHANGED but the complexity of the rules we call moral. From clans to tribes to small communities to countries, morality evolved with our ability to identify the abnormal and remove it from our society. We are the survivors of long lines of moral thinking.
Were it not so, we would have gone the way of the other seven species of human beings. Being moral is a survival mechanism.
A human being alone in the wild is nothing but a walking hamburger. No claws, no teeth, no speed, no venom, no flight, very little climbing ability or swimming ability, just a snack waiting to happen. We survive by joining groups. and creating rules that we call MORAL.
And we are off the topic of DESIGN - Stay on design until you reach a conclusion. When you reach that conclusion let us know why? How did you get to a designed universe?
Hi cognostic
What you are saying makes absolute sense. Morality is a human construction and our justice system is indeed imperfect. But that’s very upsetting for me. And I am also concerned if that thought would lead to nihilism.
Royism: For some people it does. So What? Then to Anomi and suicide or suicide bombing. You are here. You are now. Do you want to be a nihilist? Or do you give a shit about the life you are living. No ideology leads you anywhere that you do not want to go unless you join a cult or a religion. The fact that you worry about it demonstrates your ability not to get caught up in it. Critical thinking and reality testing is what keeps us sane. Again, what kind of a world do you want to live in. When the Nihilists do things that violate social conventions or the laws, they will suffer the consequences. Fact is, even that people that call themselves Nihilists are socialized enough to fit in with the rest of us.
@ROYISM Re: "...and our justice system is indeed imperfect. But that’s very upsetting for me. And I am also concerned if that thought would lead to nihilism."
Humph... "Justice" system... *sardonic chuckle*... Yeah, right. If only that were true. And you give it too much credit saying it is simply imperfect. Take it from somebody who spent twenty years on the streets working for that "justice" system, it has nothing to do with justice. IF justice does happen to get served somewhere along the way, it is likely by accident or happenstance. I think I saw somebody else here describe it more accurately as a "legal" system. With that I agree. And, believe me, there is a BIG difference between the two. I got (and still get) so damn frustrated and infuriated with our dysfunctional legal system sometimes that I could bite through nails. To make matters worse, there's not a damn I can do about it. Oh, and the entire concept of a hell is totally ridiculous and laughable to me now.
So, where does that leave us in regards to fucked up people not getting what they deserve for doing the horrendous shit they do to innocent people? (Keep in mind, I have literally been up-close-and-personal with more of that kind of stuff than I ever care to remember.).... *shaking head in frustration*... Honestly, Roy, I wish I had a good and deeply profound answer for you on that. Fact of the matter is, though, it is a question I often wrestle with myself. Simple truth is, I stay pissed off about it more than anything, because I KNOW... I have WITNESSED first hand exactly how pathologically sadistic some people can be, and I have seen those people get away with some horrific shit with barely a slap on the wrist. It is sickening, it is infuriating, and it is disheartening. And, yes, it IS something that can EASILY lead to nihilism. Matter of fact, there are people who might think I would be justified in thinking, "Aw, fuck it. Who gives a shit? None of it matters anyway."..... After all, I have seen a tremendous amount of injustices committed over the years where the perpetrators never receive due punishment, and I do not believe there is any sort of "divine entity" that will punish them after they die. And I do not use any type of "holy scriptures" to give me advice/direction.
Yet.... Here I am.... And I STILL CARE.... And family, friends, and society STILL matter to me....
"Why," you may ask? Well, I'm afraid that is something each individual has to answer and come to terms with in his/her own way. Something you need to remember, though, is nature and the universe do not give a shit about us one way or the other. We (the Human Race) are nothing more than subatomic organisms scurrying around on a microscopic speck of dust within a vastness so great it is beyond our ability to comprehend. This entire planet could be totally annihilated tomorrow, and the universe would not even notice, much less care. The sooner you understand and accept that, the easier it will be for you to figure out why you still care.
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