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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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"So mutations will allow a creature to look like anything “necessary”"
No, which bit of mutations are random is confusing you?
"I say desired is a good word because all creatures desire to live."
Irrelevant as desire doesn't influence evolution. It is an insentient process.
"I would call this magic because if you had the ability to look like anything, that is magical indeed"
Nothing has this ability, this is another of your trolling fantasies. Natural selection drives evolution, but it has no purpose, no ultimate goal, no hopes or desires. As usual your woeful ignorance on this topic is a barrier to you making any contribution of value. Sadly nothing you have posted suggest you have either the desire or the ability to change that.
You are missing the point and that is that evolution magically allows a creature to mimic and take the form, shape ,color and what else characteristics of something totally unrelated.
What is the means for this ability?
Now you are being deliberately obtuse and this is becoming somewhat dull.
There is no such thing as magic.
What you need to understand it this is the culmination of millions of generations for these creatures and that the mutations are random, but only the helpful mutations will produce an advantage for the organism and so persist in the species.
If a random mutation caused any kind of organism to look slightly more like its environment, the creature in question might do better at avoid predators or catching prey as I've explained many times now.
From there it would be more likely to produce offspring which would also have its mutation and the random mutations that caused an organism to look some other way would not confer any benefit as regards producing more offspring.
It is really simple. If birds eat the moths they can see easily, before those moths have time to reproduce; then the moths that do reproduce will be the ones that are harder to spot, simply because they are the ones that survived. Repeat this process for generations and they will be harder and harder to spot, not because magic, not because of desire; but simply for the fact that the easiest ones to see tend to get eaten each generation before they have offspring.
I actually did something similar once with a friend. There is a common mutation in fruit flies where something goes wrong and they don't have eyes. There is another common mutation where they have little stubby wings (and can't fly). There is yet another common mutation where their normal coloring gets messed up and they turn out ebony all over. We decided we wanted eyeless, flightless, ebony flies. We set up a scheme of killing a percentage of the flies each generation before they bred, based on these traits, starting with normal looking flies. Within a few months, more than 90% of each new generation was was eyeless, flightless, and ebony. You can do this yourself and it isn't hard; google "fruit fly breeding kit".
I didn't miss it at all, that's another lie from you. I quite specifically debunked it. Why lie?
Again then... Evolution does not involve magic or luck. The process is insentient, and an entirely natural phenomenon.
Random genetic mutations either provide an advantage to reproduction by enabling the possessors to better suit their environment, or they don't. Over time these genetic changes add up to the diversity of life or "origin of species" that we see.
The process does not enable an individual specimen to change in the manner you describe, the process is the change and it happened incrementally over billions of years. Though some species have evolved the ability to change for camoflauge, changing skin pigment inflating themselves to scare off predators etc. This is the result though not the process.
The thing evolving has no choice, it inherits it's genes and can't alter them.
"What is the means for this ability?"
The ability doesn't exist. The creature in question doesn't have the ability to change in order to fool predators into believing it is a leaf, it looks like a leaf because its genes were passed on to it. The genes evolved slowly over vast timescales. The mutations that made the population fitter for their environment were more likely to survive for that reason.
Why do you insist on lying, it's not as if we don't all know you're lying?
Evolution is something you're obviously ignorant of and hostile to, but no one here will be fooled by your creationist rhetoric, even if you crash the internet with your verbiage.
@J N Vanderbilt III knows nothing about god and nothing about evolution. I suggest that if he wishes to know more about evolution, he should read scientific papers and scientific books on the subject.
Those mutations are phenomenal. You have the leaf veins appearing exactly in the pattern of an actual leaf, the colors exactly matching as well.
Then you have the owl eyes on the moth compositely situated on separate wings to form a facsimile of an owls face.
Still say this is normal happenstance?
It's kind of sweet in a way, your shock and reaction is similar to my 20 month old son when I steal his nose or make a coin come out from his ear.
You should get some books, read up, educate yourself... or just get a balloon on a stick or something.
Oh the owls face on moth wings seems trivial and totally believable to you? I think you’re as gullible as your kid
“You must not understand evolution “
I can think of no better commendation of anyone's grasp of evolution than for you to disagree with it, everything you have posted on the topic confirms this to be the case. You are either a juvenile troll, or hopelessly and wilfully ignorant. Either way and as I have stated many times, I am at a loss as to what you hope to achieve. Your trolling has fallen flat, and your attack on an established scientific theory, and the fact it explains that is the basis of an entire field of science, is hardly going to impress people who unlike you grasp what it explains, and the irrefutable nature of the enormous amount of evidence amassed to support it from multiple fields of study.
The real irony as I have said, is that even if evolution were not an established scientific fact, creationism would remain a puerile superstitious fantasy without a shred of evidence to support it. So just why creationists waste so much time and energy attacking it is baffling. Obviously it can only be because they fear the obvious consequences it's validity has for creationism, and that always makes me smile.
Well said Sheldon, and it's a shame because I think members like Nyar and Blindwatchmaker have actually made a concerted effort to help explain these concepts.
But it's literally like yelling at a mongrel dog in heat to stop humping the vacuum cleaner with these oxygen thieves.
The analogy I would use is we're rolling our eyes disapprovingly as he keeps soiling himself next to the litter tray, and each time we slide the tray under him he trots away and does it again laughing at us as if we don't get the joke. He hasn't noticed we all live somewhere else and he's just soiling his own home.
You see our "homes" in the analogy are reality based on objective objective evidence, the home he is soiling is his own mind which he is not only filling with vapid superstitions, but has ring-fenced from objective reality in order to protect that superstition. He thinks he's being smart, bless.
Also another thing that boggles my mind. All those times I accused J N Vanderbilt III of being a 13 year old boy, he has never bothered to deny it. As said in my summation, what else can you expect from a 13 year old creatard.
rmfr
I believe you are the trolling shills, in fact if you claim to be rational, how can you believe that random mutations can produce the perfect enemy foil as to look EXACTLY LIKE A LEAF? Replete w fungus spots!!!!!!! And mimicry is all pervasive w many other copycat miracles.
To believe all these organisms hit the lottery is beyond rationality. You are Totally gullible and I’ve told you evolution is built on false incredulous hope but you choose to cling to your religion. Unreal
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Well you have figured us out! The scientists, the peer reviewed journals, the fossil record, the users on this forum, and even medical science; all of it is a conspiracy.
Damn; now I won't get my end of the year shill bonus from Ronald McDonald house; couldn't you have waited until after Christmas to bust us?
Look!!!! Is that a leaf?
Nah just another moth or whatever hit life’s lottery again, no biggie
Wrong. It is a flutterby.
rmfr
This person is clearly trolling. Nobody is that dense, not even rocks are.
Actually I was thinking Black Holes are fluffy and light compared to his density...
rmfr
There is an interesting point, hitting life lottery.
Considering how often it happens, it has a similar probability to winning the lottery?! hmm, ok!
He already proclaimed he accepts micro-evolution, so understand it is possible.
Yet, cannot describe the mechanics of magic coming in to existence, however it is more plausible.
Oh dear.
Here is a scary thought... ***shivers from chills going up spine***
What if JNV3 and JazzTheist got together in a single thread?
rmfr
I'm not the content could be any more puerile or stupid, just a higher rate of fire.
Anyone who denies scientific facts, worse cherry picks the ones that refute their religious myths, can't really be reasoned with.
How often it happens? Pretty often
I’d say for creatures to keep hitting the lottery IS magic, of course you say no unless it was you who won powerball multiple times
Who cares, you're wrong and that's an objective scientific fact. magic is defined as "the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces." The evidence for evolution contained within the scientific theory explains how it works, so by definition it is not mysterious, and it is an entirely natural phenomenon, so it axiomatically isn't magic.
It's bizarre though that you bother to decry the idea of magic, when it forms the basis of your religious beliefs, and is inherent in your religion's creation myth, humans being created from clay in an instant with no explanation of how, and citing supernatural powers is the very definition of magic after all. There are even talking snakes and magic apples in the myth as well. So even if you were not lying about evolution, your derogation of magic in place of explanation is rank hypocrisy.
The lottery is a good analogy though, as though the odds are very strongly against the individual, the sheer number of participants making random selections make it a very high probability that someone will win, and of course this is what happens week in and week out. So just as the massive amount of random mutations in evolution produce some that give an advantage, and so are passed on, these then are accumulative over time. No magic needed and nothing mysterious about it, nor is luck involved as natural selection isn't random.
J N Vanderbilt III
When is your puerile childish mind going to realize you have completely, totally, absolutely, utterly lost this debate?
Let's see, 13 years old means you are in about 8th grade. Stay in school. Quit skipping classes. And quit smoking all that weed.
Then again, since you are a creatard, you parents must also be creatards; thus, you probably home schooled which means you lack the intelligence to cut it in public schools.
rmfr
What you’re glossing over and trivializing is the odds and functional improbablilty of many living insects becoming identical to something else, right down to color, shape, fungus spots, exact sizing, eye parts on different wing sections and other features. As long as you can divert your attention from those impossible odds, you’re good in your mind by fooling yourself.
According to you, if you can think it, it’ll happen
Evolutionist Childish reasoning to the max
Will you play the Lottery for me if I front you the money? We know evos are winners!!!!!
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"What you’re glossing over and trivializing is the odds and functional improbablilty of many living insects becoming identical to something else, "
You don't know what identical means, clearly, and your spelling is abysmal, but most of all you are simply making up lies about a scientific theory you haven't even a cursory understanding of. No one has "glossed over" anything, and it is axiomatic that you don't know anything about the probabilities involved. Science on the other hand does, and yet species evolution remains a scientific fact evidenced and explained by an accepted scientific theory.
Yeah, I'm going to go with science here, and not some ignorant created trolling an atheist site.
"As long as you can divert your attention from those impossible odds"
It's impossible for a creature to exist that you have just posted a photo of? Or do you mean impossible without the addition of supernatural magic from an evidence deity, as I don't see that shortening the odds tbh.
"According to you, if you can think it, it’ll happen"
Liar liar pants on fire, I believe is the accepted common vernacular.
"Will you play the Lottery for me if I front you the money? We know evos are winners!!!!!"
Pointless, as your verbiage screams loser to me...
Wow those leaf vein lines are all right in the exact correct spots, freaking amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh just by chance, my bad
If they are exactly the same, as you have claimed over and over; how can you tell which one is the bug?
Ordinarily I'd dismiss it as hyperbole, but I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if he didn't understand what identical meant.
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