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@Vince
Welcome to this forum Vince. No, We atheists on this forum don't know everything and you use a loaded word: "creation" assume a creator, so you are already presupposing your god.
As for myself, i am a "weak atheist" or agnostic atheist. I am not inclined to believe in the christian god or any other gods, because all of them are so blatant impossiblities of nature and logic.
PS: Cognostic using capital letters doesn't mean he is insulting you.
My use if the word "creation" has always been preceded with the word "if". No presupposing
You say you don't know everything. Of course not, but I can't get anyone to offer any explanations at all. Just "there's lots of proof". If you understand the proof at all, you can discuss it.
By the way, the capital letters isn't an insult, just obnoxious. But how about this "...you sound like you are about 14..."?
NOPE: People who do not believe in Gods are still looking for how things got created. For Cosmology - no one actually knows. As far as we can tell the universe began as a singularity or hot dense mass and then began to expand. No one, not theists or atheists knows anything at all about what happened before Planck time and that is a fact.
The Big Bang refers to the expansion of the universe from a hot dense mass or singularity into the expanding universe we have today. This is about as factual as anything gets. All experiments and information support the Big Bang theory currently.
Theories on the Origin of Life: This may or may not be biology because there are many competing theories. Abiogenisis seems to be a head above all others. This is the idea that life formed from non-life. All actual facts and evidence seem to support this theory and scientists have produced the building blocks, organic material, from inorganic mass in a laboratory setting. Other theories you can look into include, The Electric Spark Hypothesis, The Early Clay Hypothesis, The Deep Sea Vents Hypothesis, The Chilly start hypothesis, The RNA world Hypothesis, and the Panspermia hypothesis. One thing each and every one of these theories has going for it is FACTS and EVIDENCE, something that no God theory has.
EVOLUTION: Evolution is what happens once life appears. It occurs over 4 billion years on a planet that is 13 billion years old. Time and speciation occur as life forms adapt to the environments in which they find themselves. Life forms that do not or can not adapt become extinct. 95% of all life forms on the planet are now extinct. This planet is not such a good place for life to exist but somehow it does and we are one of the results.
Why do you keep insisting that the atheist position is "God does not exist?" This is called a Straw Man argument. You are asserting that Atheists believe something that they do not believe so that you can attack that belief. This is why your get insulted for your ignorance and why capital letters are used. YOU ARE MAKING IGNORANT ASSERTIONS ONCE AGAIN. NO ONE CAN CLAIM YOUR GOD DOES NOT EXIST WITHOUT YOU FIRST DEFINING IT AND OFFERING EVIDENCE FOR ITS EXISTENCE. PLEASE DO SO. WE ARE ALL WAITING. THIS IS NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT a BIOLOGY or COSMOLOGY forum. Atheists do not need to know a damn thing about BIOLOGY, COSMOLOGY, or EVOLUTION to reject god claims that come to them without FACTS AND EVIDENCE.
THAT WHICH IS ASSERTED WITHOUT EVIDENCE CAN BE REJECTED WITHOUT EVIDENCE. Capitalization is used to highlight ignorant assertions make by the illiterate.
Vince Grabo,
"How did you decide that God doesn't exist without thinking about this?"
The word "God" is just a title and it doesn't really mean anything by itself. There are thousands of gods, each has its own specific name and attributes. So the first thing is to be specific and name the deity you want to discuss. That is important because there is about 120 creator gods and each one did different things to create the universe.
So please review the list and see if your creator god is listed. If you see your god then tell us why you think he created everything and none of the other gods did. If you come up with some good reasons why none of the other gods created the universe then we can apply your reasons to discount your particular delusion.
@Vince Re: "You're saying that dead elements come to life like it's no big deal. It's a huge deal. How could this happen? If something's dead, where did the life come from?"
Hello again, Vince. Good to see you are still around asking questions. I have been pondering the above statement you made, and I have come up with something that I hope will help you. Keep in mind, I am no scientist, and I am most certainly not any sort of expert on the subject of the origin of life. However, I was an Army Combat Medic for a few years, and I have always been something of a "nerdy" fan of science stuff. Even so, at the end of the day, I will tell you right up front that I DO NOT KNOW for any amount of certainty from whence first life came. Still, here is something for you to consider that might help point you in the right direction in finding your answers....
Obviously, the human body is an amazingly complex organism. (Trust me, I learned some fascinating things about it in Medic School.) Ironically, though, at the very base level, we are really nothing more than a highly complex combination of various chemicals and base elements, with a majority of our anatomy being comprised of nothing more than simple water. Pretty neat, huh? And we function due to a combination of various chemical reactions and electrical impulses caused by some of those chemical reactions. Think of a car battery, if it helps. (Believe me, I am greatly over-simplifying this, but I want to keep it simple if possible.) Now, keep in mind, none of those chemicals or base elements are "live" materials. In other words, any one of them on its own is as "dead" as a rock in your front yard. Yet, here we are. So, I can now hear you asking how this could possibly relate to the origin of the very first life form. Well, here ya go...
Billions and billions of years ago when the Earth was first forming, it was nothing but a boiling caldron of just about every chemical/element known to man (and maybe even a few we do not know.... *shrugging shoulders*...). There was no atmosphere, and the Earth was constantly being bombarded with various space debris and exotic cosmic radiation. Plus, there were massive electrical storms covering continent-sized areas at times That means planet-wide there were literally countless different chemical reactions taking place EVERY.... SINGLE.... SECOND for many, many EONS. Now, again, I am no expert on the subject, but it seems fairly dang plausible to me that some form of "living organism" (or even multiple different "living organisms") could have feasibly been formed during that time. And from that point on, Evolution and Natural Selection did the rest. Personally, that seems like a FAR BETTER and much more reasonable/rational possibility than inserting any type of magic or supernatural entity into the equation. Basically, if our current bodies (although highly evolved and complex) are really nothing more than a handful of chemicals/elements operating on electrical impulses, then it is not so far-fetched to consider that the very first and most simplistic living organisms could have developed from chemical reactions/radiation/electricity. See what I'm sayin'? No god/creator needed. Hope that helps you a bit.
The wind, rain, hail, lightning, space debris crashing in to the ground, radiation, etc. was extremely volatile and unstable. How would that help some simple elements become more complex?
Vince, really, why don’t you take some classes on this or get some books at the library? You seen very interested in it. Try studying it...it will provide more detailed information than you will be able to get here.
More detailed? I haven't gotten any information at all. I've been told there is lots of proof, I should read up, I sound like I'm 14 and that's about it. No information or explanation of anything.
Vince, you wrote, “More detailed? I haven't gotten any information at all. ”
That’s just not true.
@CyberLN
It seems likely it may well be true in his mind. No matter what we write here.
Which sadly means he will seek answers but due to how he thinks and accepts in information he may never get any help with any answers at all. This also I feel makes him susceptible to lies of religion and their nice simple easy to digest answers of: godDidItCauseMagic!
I concur.
Go back over the three pages and find a question of mine and then find an answer to it.
No a response. A direct answer to my question as it was asked.
@Vince Re: "No a response. A direct answer to my question as it was asked."
You are quite the demanding little shit for somebody who claims not to know very much about anything. (Just an observation.)
Asking for an answer to my questions is demanding? How do you have a conversation without answering questions? You guys don't seem to have any answers, just lectures and insults.
@Vince Grabo
I answered it with a really long post. Apparently you did not care to notice.
Your very long post didn't directly address my question. It avoided it. How about a very short, direct answer?
@Vince Re: "How about a very short, direct answer?"
You mean for these two questions from the OP?...
1. How did the first chickens come to be?
2. Why, and how, did chickens start laying eggs?
Okay, here ya go.
I DON'T KNOW. GO ASK A BIOLOGIST.
Edit to add: If that is too complicated for you to understand, I suggest you go find a third grade reading class to attend for a few weeks.
I understand perfectly that you can't answer any questions. You talk rapidly and broadly and don't deal with details. It sounds good if you say it fast, but if it can't answer detailed questions, then it isn't much of a theory.
Vince Grabo,
Here's a question for you =
According to the Bible angels have wings. Some angels have two wings, some have four wings, and some have six wings. Other than the wings they sort of look like men. On Earth winged creatures lay eggs. Do you think angels also lay eggs like chickens? Do you think they have feet like ducks or feet like chickens?
~~~ Can you give a direct answer to my questions as they were asked?
@Vince Re: "More detailed? I haven't gotten any information at all."
Obviously, you do not pay attention very well..... *scratching chin*.... Hmmmm.... Actually, that in itself explains quite a bit.
@ TM
Pssst.. doesn't this guy remind you of...(ssssshhhh) a certain lepidopterist who just got his arse kicked by Cali??
@Old Man Re: "..... a certain lepidopterist who just got his arse kicked by Cali??"
You mean Jame Gumb (aka: Buffalo Bill) from "Silence of the Lambs"?.... Nah. That dude got his ass kicked by Clarice Starling. lol
Why don't you respond directly to my point instead of evading it?
@Vince Re: "Why don't you respond directly to my point instead of evading it?"
MANY folks on here have already directly responded to your questions MANY times in very clear and concise fashions. I have even been polite and cordial and have tried to assist you in your quest for information. Sadly, YOU - on the other hand - have done nothing more than pitch little bitchy fits like a spoiled three year old because everybody is providing HONEST answers that you NEED to hear as opposed to giving you answers that fit whatever warped agenda you have stored between your ears. Therefore, speaking for myself only, you have relinquished your welcome. Now, run along, young man, else I shall be tempted to start using Tin-Man's Butterknife in response to your future remarks. Ta-ta for now... *smooch*...
@Vince
As others have suggested many times already, go read a book. Or multiple books. Or go to a site where there are experts on these particular subjects (Biology, Chemistry, Cosmology, etc...) who can better answer your questions. As I told you myself, my knowledge in those areas is fairly general/basic. And - AGAIN - none of them have anything to do with why I am an atheist. Oh, and Cog was not insulting you. (Believe me, you will know when he does.) He was merely trying to help you see where you are mistakenly trying to make irrational arguments. And at this point I do have to agree with him that you sound like an early teenager who has next to zero understanding of basic science.
Vince Grabo,
"We have dead elements everywhere and they don't spring to life."
If you did a chemical analysis of an animal such as ourselves you would discover that our bodies are made of various atomic elements. Atomic elements are "dead" since they don't exhibit any normal signs of life. So how does a collection of various atomic elements gain the power of life? One day you collection of atomic elements will cease to live as an unit and you will die. We eat dead atoms and convert them into matter and energy for our bodies. Have you ever thought about how that happens?
Hey there, Vince. Welcome to the AR. You have definitely come to the right place to learn about atheists and atheism. Simply put, atheism is the lack of belief in any god/gods. That's it. Nothing complicated. Atheist is a term used to indicate an individual who does not believe in any god/gods. Nothing more. Nothing less. Beyond that, atheists range far and wide in any other personally held views/beliefs.
As far as how everything came to be, I can offer you only my personal understandings, as each and every atheist on here tends to have his/her own thoughts/beliefs on that subject. Personally, I am a fan of the Big Bang as to how the universe formed. What there may or may not have been prior to that I have absolutely ZERO idea. In other words, I do not know.
As for how life may have started, abiogenesis has some pretty good credentials in my opinion. And Evolution handles how we all developed after that initial lifeform. However, I am not a scientist nor a scholar. Be that as it may, none of that has anything at all to do with as to why I am an atheist. The Big Bang, Abiogenesis, and Evolution all could be totally busted and proven wrong tomorrow, and I will still be an atheist. Yes, all of those subjects (and many others) are very interesting to me on an intellectual level, but they have little to no bearing on my being an atheist.
I was raised in a strong Baptist/Methodist family. And although I was totally engulfed in religion from the time I had cognizant thought, none of it ever made much sense to me. Just way too many inconsistencies and contradictions that were blaringly obvious to me even at a very young age. Even so, I became totally brainwashed with the threat of hell because I was an obedient and respectful child and trusted my elders. As a result, I spent a vast majority of my life in constant mental "turmoil" trying to cope with what I was taught conflicting with all the things that made no logical sense to me. Was finally able to break away just a little over a year ago. And I haven't looked back. Hope this helps you a bit. Please feel free to ask any questions you may have. We like people here who genuinely want to learn.
@Tin-Man,
I know what you mean by "constant mental turmoil", it is not easy when you live in a place with not only formal religions, but a wide range of beliefs in sorcery, astrology etc.
Add to this that your own mother believes she's some sort of medium and has the habit of seeing a woman who also believes sh'es a healer from ancient tradition of Madagascar.
Hello Vince.
As far as the question of where life came from, or how "everything started," I have to answer honestly that I don't know. And that's okay! Recognizing you don't know something is actually a more honest, rational and humble position than asserting that you do know while pointing to things that can only qualify as beliefs.
I have my own beliefs about how the universe works with regard to such beginnings, but I readily admit they are no more than beliefs, and that I do not have evidence outside of what seems most likely given evidence in other things (cosmology, chemistry, evolution), and extrapolation of elements found in our Earthly microcosm to the broader picture. I believe that the universe is cyclical - the force of gravity between two objects never reaches true zero - and I believe that, given literal eternity, a large portion of the matter of the universe eventually coalesces into one enormous mass, and that there is some "critical point" at which an accumulation of more mass causes an internal/external explosion of gargantuan proportions - sending it all back out again (Big Bang). Like a universal recycling process. I also believe that life is a fundamental aspect of the universe. Like the behavior of light, gravity or the texture of matter when composed of a specific number of protons/neutrons/electrons. I believe that, given the right conditions (warmth from a nearby star, accommodating atmosphere/magnetic field, weather patters that refresh/rejuvenate waters/substrate, and time) life simply will be. That the potential is there, in the matter, for that matter to rise into a state of awareness of itself through the eventual production of consciousness. Again... only beliefs/opinion, nothing more. But most certainly based on actual observation and learning about the real world. And I am completely open to revision of my beliefs as more evidence presents itself, or there is more learning to be done.
Vince, there are a plethora of fabulous books that offer a great basic education about evolution. If you are really interested in learning about the subject, hear to your local library and check a coup,e of them out. Doing this would likely provide a far better learning experience that asking questions about it here.
I, for one, am happy to chat with you about a/theism. Evolution is science, though, and an entirely different subject.
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