Gabriel - "which still doesn't address the who or what created the energy to begin with."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-energy_universe#Free-lunch_interpreta...
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Gabriel - "And I don't get your question with regard to ordered."

I'm asking if ordered is a binary property? Is a human being more "ordered" than 1 liter of hydrogen gas? Than a small rock? Than 1 cubic meter of hard vacuum? I mean if everything is ordered, then the word doesn't mean anything. I'm still trying to pry the definition out of you.

Gentlemen,
I am here because I agreed with the premise set forth, that when religious people claim to have an experience with God it is an illusion. I showed this Biblically. It is you all who then set out to disprove my God claim, to which I've responded in a logical and critical way. No where have I advocated for God through physical evidence, testimony, or feelings, rather my discussion has been through logical deduction - from the known to the unknown. I then asked you all who disagreed to give me an alternative theory in cosmology that would rival or even negate my postulation, and none have given one. All that has been posited has been logically porous, begging more questions. Whether it is reheating, zero energy, multi-universe, alien life, they all begin the premise of something already existing, but some of you have mentioned, as I agree, that matter and the universe has a beginning, to which this necessitates the FIRST CAUSE. Therefore, our discussion has been on cosmology, the metaphysical study of the BEGINNING of the universe - who or what is responsible for matter? So if matter just evolved out of nothing, please explain this. On the contrary, it has been you Mr. Pragmatic that hasn't answered any of my questions, which haven't been hard, rather following the foot prints of nature give a logical suggestion, rather than "I don't know!"

On the discussion of order, you all trying to complicate matters. There is no doubt that a rock and a human being are not the same in structure, but their biological makeup to its sub cellular level all possess the properties of systematic arrangement. Everything has been structured with precision and fine tuning, else it would not exist.

What is interesting in all of this discussion is, and I've mentioned it before, it's funny that rational men discover things present in nature and then attempt to rationalize it away from MIND being responsible for nature itself. Now that is pure irony!

@ Gabriel

Gabriel: -“The only logical speculation that makes sense to me is when something possess [sic] attributes of order, intelligence, and fine-tuning then this leads me back to a Superior Being who is responsible for this.”

Me: - You are starting with a superior being and then working backwards to fit it into your ‘logical’ speculation. Your own words - “this leads me back to a Superior Being”.

Gabriel: - “Therefore, after studying holy books, the only Being that has made sense is the one mentioned In the Bible as being MIND.”

Me: - Yet again you are starting with a ‘Being’.

Let me expand on my earlier question. Sans indoctrination and there being no 'holy' books what would your explanation be?

@ Gabriel

"On the contrary, it has been you Mr. Pragmatic that hasn't answered any of my questions, which haven't been hard, rather following the foot prints of nature give a logical suggestion, rather than "I don't know!""

I already explained, your questions have unwarranted premises and conclusions. So to even be able to continue from there, I (we) have counter questions.

You just gave another example of that now:

"it's funny that rational men discover things present in nature and then attempt to rationalize it away from MIND being responsible for nature itself. Now that is pure irony!"

What do you mean "away from MIND"? Where did you get the impression that it must start with mind?

Gentlemen,
Why can't you humble yourself and see the logic in my position, especially the one who calls himself Pragmatic, which means guided by practical experience and observation rather than theory. When I consider the world around me, what I observe is man's mind and imagination giving rise to all sorts of things / buildings, cars, computers, space rockets, et. al. All items of life have been created and systematically arranged with the process of MIND/ RATIONAL. Now, what's interesting is, as we've gotten more advanced in our thinking and machinery we've been able to study the properties of nature, (which has been here before we arrived through birth), closely, and what it has revealed is, a systematic arrangement of things - order, intelligence, and fine tuning, from classical determinism to the subatomic realm. This is indisputable. Hence, an honest, open/minded, and truthful person, based on pragmatism, concludes that Someone or Something, with Intelligence (MIND) is responsible for our world. I haven't started with an assumption of a Creator and then build around it, rather I begin with the world around me and its properties, which has led me to this conclusion - from the known to the unknown.

Now as I've mentioned before, from nature alone, one cannot know the true identity of our Creator, and the reason why people speculate and offer tons of ideas. Therefore, I am under the impression that whoever or whatever created this universe wanted us to know him or it in a more intimate way. And the only way to do this is communicate to us in a different manner other than hinting to his of its existence through nature. Now this takes us to a discussion of "holy books" because these all claim a Maker, the one responsible for our world and existence. So with great intrigue one considers these books and should use his or her mind to establish, consistent with nature and reality, the Creator that fits with the properties of nature. And when I look at these books, anyone which begins to describe things that are inane and foolish (i.e., our Creator is a person, animal, nature, etc.), I quickly discard, because this is inconsistent with nature. The only holy book that has ever made sense to me has been the Bible, correctly interpreted, as the only book that has described a believable Creator, based on what we know and experience from life. Now you are vehemently biased against the Bible because of false and inane claims of religions folks, based on misinterpretations of the Bible. And now you clumped everyone who believes in the Bible with these folks, which I've attempted to tell you that they are wrong in their views.

And I've explained what I mean by ordered / a systematic arrangement of things. Things aren't more ordered from this definition, but things behave differently from one item to another, because they aren't the same. A rock is different from a human being and its structures aren't the same, but both move through a systematic arrangement.

@ Gabiel

"...an honest, open/minded, and truthful person, based on pragmatism, concludes that Someone or Something, with Intelligence (MIND) is responsible for our world."

Why? There is no real reason to insert an mind here. You have no real case for such an arrogant assumption. Hence, this is not as you say "an open mind", since you have predetermined that there is a mind involved and that everyone should come to this conclusion, completely without justification.

@ Gabriel

"The only holy book that has ever made sense to me has been the Bible, correctly interpreted"

Okay. But...
- Why would the creator of the universe, the creator of life and humanity let the instructions for humanity to be written down in a code that requires special interpretation?
- Why would the creator allow multiple different version of that book to be written afterwards?
- Why was this holy scripture written as multiple different scriptures by different authors, where some where discarded and others were included at "The First Council of Nicaea" at 325 CE?
- Why would this creator allow the original scriptures to be written in a language without vowels or accents?
- Why did he allow other holy scriptures to be written both before and after the true one?

Have you read the other holy texts?
Have you read The Book of Mormon? Have you read the Jehova's Witness Bible? Have you read The Quran (it must of course be read in Arabic to be truly scripture)? Have you studied Buddhism? Jainism? Sikhism?

@ Gabriel

"I've explained what I mean by ordered / a systematic arrangement of things."

Really?

"...A rock is different from a human being and its structures aren't the same, but both move through a systematic arrangement."

Right... what?
How about you actually provide a definition?

@ Gabriel

You don't have to answer these questions, but please think about them.
Of course, you are welcome to surprise me if you feel like it.

- Were you born in an area that predominantly Christian?
- Assuming you were, do you think it's a coincidence that you are Christian and believe in the Bible?
- Assuming you were, do you think it was pure luck luck you were born where the true religion was dominant?

Now, since man possess choice then he or she can come up with things that are wrong and in error. God allows this, but it is still up to us to question them and see whether their actions or thoughts are consistent with logic, reason, and comman sense. This is where false holy books come into play. Men have written books inconsistent with reality and experience. This is why I've rejected the Book of Mormon because Mormonism believes that God is a man who has thousands of wives and through impregantion, has placed spirit children upon other planets. Now that sounds stupid! Pentecostal believe God to be a force or energy, and that doesn't make sense as well, because they are describing God as matter. Now certainly there are some that believe that God is MIND, but what makes them in error are their practices of idols, and morality and ethics.