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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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*** IGNORANT FALLACY ALERT **** I can't think of another reason therefore my reason stands!
I'm always open to other options! This is just one thing I've found as inescapable for me. I've tried nonbelief, and I always find that I lose these benefits.
Have you compared the two paths? If so what were your results?
@ Homer
"I've tried nonbelief, and I always find that I lose these benefits."
In this subject, it is purely binary, you believe in a god or gods, or you do not. There is no middle ground, and one is incapable of just deciding to switch positions.
You are a theist. You can not just wake up one morning and say to yourself "well, I will try not believing in a god for this week".
I've gone through things that have lead me to doubt my faith and reject God in my life more than once. I came to realize that for me, and I'm speaking of myself only, that when I lost that faith, I lost the "fruits".
Then, eventually I realized that what was causing me to doubt my faith was what man has put in the way, the judgement of others, the expectations that God was some genie in a bottle to solve our problems, all those things that are so distasteful about many aspects of organized religion. So I rejected the judgement, the expectations that prayer was some magic panacea, and I just tried it with God. Well and maybe holding onto that Jesus taught some good lessons as well.
And that worked, for me.
Homer, you wrote, “I've gone through things that have lead me to doubt my faith and reject God in my life more than once.”
What were those things?
@Cyber Re: "Homer, you wrote, “I've gone through things that have lead me to doubt my faith and reject God in my life more than once.”
Notice how he said he "rejected" god? May be a minor detail, but that is not the same as saying he stopped believing in god. Nice way of leaving himself a convenient escape route, if needed. Wiggle-wiggle-wiggle... *chuckle*...
@HOMER: ARGUMENT FROM IGNORANCE. "I can't think of a better explanation, therefore, God.
So you've repeated your original claim, but have still not explained how that is evidence for a deity?
People make this claim for other deities, and it is axiomatically true that you can't all be right? So again, even accepting your claim is true, how does a belief altering your behaviour or the way you feel remotely validate that belief?
I never said I was right, did I? I'm sharing why I believe what I believe. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. When I've tried it the other way, nonbelief, I lose qualities that are promised from belief, it's pretty compelling for me unless I happen to find another way.
Not sure in my lifetime I'm going to be able to sort that one out. If I do I'll let you know.
You said you found it compelling, you do know what that means don't you? Or are YOU now saying you don''t think you're right abut a deity being real? It either is a compelling reason to believe or it is not.
One last time then, how does a belief altering the way a person feels remotely validate that belief?
If someone claims they became a better person because they believed in Allah, and many do then why doesn't that claim validate the Islamic deity, and thus refute yours, unless you're claiming all deities are real?
It validates my belief because it works for me. I'm not asking anyone to believe like I do, I'm sharing why I believe. I find it is one promise contained in the Bible that I personally do experience.
I believe in a creator God that does provide something I can access through belief and prayer, that something gives me joy. If someone else wants that to be called Allah or whatever and they get the same results then great!
If man wants to take that access and use it to control populations, make war, and whatever other selfish means to their own ends, then it is abusing that relationship.
Not sure why believing in a creator that provides good things and that a man named Jesus 2000 years ago taught some pretty good lessons on how to access God equates to refuting others beliefs. It's what man does with their religion where I'll agree with many who don't believe in God at all.
@Homer
You're simply ignoring my questions, and endlessly repeating your original claim, so here are my questions again then.
How does a belief altering the way a person feels remotely validate that belief?
If someone claims they became a better person because they believed in Allah, and many make precisely this claim, then why doesn't that claim validate the Islamic deity, and thus refute yours, unless you're claiming all deities are real?
Please read the questions carefully, as you keep responding, but ignore the questions.
I'm sorry Sheldon, I'm trying to answer your questions, I really am.
I'm explaining the difference in me, and it's enough for me. It's why believe. I don't expect anyone else to be convinced.
I have no idea if all deities are real or not, all I know is what I am experiencing.
@Homer
Yes I get the concept, it's hardly new as I've encountered the claim many times.
However, is being convinced your experience is real, a validation of that experience? If it is, then we need to unlock all our mental health institutions and offer a grave apology.
Also you don't need to know whether all such claims mean all deities are real, since they must be as they use the same criteria for belief you do. This is the problem when you go down the route of undermining or abandoning objective evidence as the best method to validate belief.
Again it's your choice, I'm merely commenting that it is demonstrably a biased one, and cannot be otherwise, since it relies SOLELY on personal subjective opinion. Just as someone who is convinced their a reincarnation of Elvis would.
If you measured the validity of all beliefs based on how they make you feel, then as I said, one could believe literally anything.
The fact remains, despite Apollo's relentless assault on our collective senses in other threads, that objective facts about our shared reality do exist. Conversely, what you believe, you cannot differentiate from a personal fantasy in any objective way.
You have also still failed to explain how belief is validated by how that belief makes you feel, as you've asserted yours does from the start.
Homer, lots of people do things that make them feel good. It could be gardening, yoga, reading, gaming, this is a VERY long list. And for each example, the impact on a person from such activities can be identified and explained. And from those activities a person can grow and gain in confidence and abilities, even achieve mental bliss and/or calm.
So why is your activity in your faith any different than those examples, and why?
I've tried putting myself more in such activities in the crises of life that shook my faith, to no avail. They make for adding some happiness. It's not the same level nor the same amount of qualities, but like in the rest of the discussions, I have a burden of proof here I can't put some metric on. If others can get the kind of results from those things, I'm very happy for them.
@ Homer
Crisis of life?
We all face them in our journey of life. By their very definition they force the person to question their personal goals, activities, intelligence, and their worth.
When one faces such a crisis, they know that something is wrong and they must deal with whatever it is. That alone has nothing to do with any god, yet it is one of the most important parts of self-healing. And the act of self-healing always involves more than just dropping to your knees and praying. It can be identifying the problem, figuring out solutions, then acting on them. No god required.
Through this entire process one can deal with a crisis in life, and not rely on any imaginary friend.
The benefit of doing it this way independently is it builds self-worth and confidence, something you have in short supply because you believe you need your god as a crutch to get you through your life.
@Homer
"I never said I was right, did I?"
Well yeah, you kind of did.
When you say you have a "compelling reason" to believe a thing, that is a clear indication that you believe you are right.
Your claim, made without evidence is classic example of an argument from ignorance fallacy
IE. " I am too ignorant ,too stupid or too lacking in imagination to think of anything else, therefore I'll use this ignorant and stupid claim"
At this stage I've lost interest in you. Kindly provide proof for your claim or stop wasting my time.
Are you familiar with Plato's cave?
@ Homer
"Are you familiar with Plato's cave?"
Very much so, and I refute all of it.
It is an attempt to dismiss empirical evidence and knowledge, and instead maintaining that pure thought is the highest goal.
Everything we experience in this world, from your computer to the internet to medicine to cars are a direct result of empirical knowledge. Pure thought ideas (for example, Einstein used them a lot) are fantastic tools to explore concepts. But in the end, theory must support reality and practice, else it is just mental masturbation that does not achieve anything.
Secondly, Plato's cave is an insult to people. We are adaptable and very capable of change if required.
Homer, can you demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity?
This is a yes no question.
No.
Now lead me around wherever you want to take me from that and we will see where we get.
I think we just got there, I have no interest in beliefs held without any evidence. Have a nice day.
You too! Lol not sure how one can turn something as subjective as increased joy through faith and make it into something objective.
Doesn't mean it isn't real either.
@ Homer
"not sure how one can turn something as subjective as increased joy through faith and make it into something objective."
Joy is a positive emotion that can be measured. We have self-reporting mechanisms to measure this experience. Just ask any psychologist. One of the first things they may establish is your emotional makeup, also involving your level of joy.
Please do not attempt to place a known and studied emotion into the land of woo woo. It is studied, it can be measured.
@HEY DWOEKIN: ARE YOU PAYING ATTENTION. When Homer is asked directly if he can provide any evidence for the existence of his God, he replies, "NO!" This is the very definition of AGNOSTIC THEIST.
HOMER IS AGNOSTIC and HE BELIEVES IN A GOD.
'WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE. NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK YOU KNOW!!!!!
Cog,
Yes, it is the case that someone who makes no claim to knowledge of God but believes that the statement 'There is God' is true can be defined as an agnostic theist. Similarly someone who makes no claim to knowledge of God and believes that the statement 'There is no God' is true can be defined as agnostic atheist. Someone who makes no claim to knowledge of God and holds no beliefs on the subject is an Agnostic.
D.
Dworkin, you wrote, “someone who makes no claim to knowledge of God and believes that the statement 'There is no God' is true can be defined as agnostic atheist. ”
I identify as an agnostic atheist and I have NEVER believed that the statement ‘there is no god’ is true!
As an agnostic atheist, I admit I have no knowledge about the non/existence of any gods. Additionally, and this is important, I do not believe the assertion(s) that any god(s) exist.
@Dworkin
Dude, you realize you sound like a Monty Python sketch, right? (Except Monty Python is actually funny and entertaining.)
Dworkin: How is this not blatantly clear? YOU ARE CONFUSING KNOWLEDGE WITH BELIEF.
Someone who makes no claim to knowledge and holds no beliefs on the subject is an Agnostic.
Once again you are engaged in an Equivocation Fallacy as you confuse the terms belief and knowledge.
1. No claim to knowledge of god but asserts "God exists" is making a knowledge claim based on nothing.
2. No claim to knowledge of god but asserts "God does not exist." is making a knowledge claim based on nothing.
3. No claim to knowledge, and refusing to respond to the question, do you believe in a god or not, does not make you Agnostic. Especially in light of the fact that you have already admitted that sometimes you believe and sometimes you don't.
KNOWLEDGE IS NOT A PART OF THE EQUATION.
Do you believe in a god. Yes or No? Asserting that there is no reason to believe because you have no evidence MAKES YOU ATHEIST.
Atheist is a person that does not believe in God or gods. You assert you have no knowledge and therefore do not believe. You are Atheist.
Holding no belief is the same thing as not believing.
You are confusing the assertion "God does not exist" (Antitheism ) With the simple assertion "I have no reason to believe in a god." (Atheism).
I have no reason to believe in God or gods as I have not seen any evidence. AGNOSTIC ATHEIST.
You have just admitted to being Atheist!
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