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Ten paragraphs covering your original question about Newton's religious beliefs, what it implied, my answers, and then offering an analogous question about another theist who is also an eminent scientist in his field, why it was relevant, what your evasion implied. All dismissed in one sentence by you without any substantive reason, that's pathetic John, grow up. As I said if you wanted to ignore my questions you would, but you want to respond and pretend you have something credible, but then as we see here offer nothing at all.
You still haven't said if you;re a YEC, or if you deny any other scientific facts other then species evolution.
I honestly don't think you know what you argue about half the time. Care to summarize the last few pages for me?
What for, you've got a scroll button and it's all right there. You clearly will never give any honest answers to difficult questions. As I keep saying that level of dishonest evasion speaks volumes.
I'm not interested in scrolling, I'm interested in how that information is being filtered and interpreted by your brain
Then make something approaching a cogent intelligent comment.
This might your shortest comment ever, good job.
Thanks, I tried to make as vapid, pointless and irrelevant as yours. This seems apropos given we're (not) discussing the superstitious flimflam of religion.
@Breezy
What you have told us contradicts the DSM-V; and perhaps more troubling: it often contradicts yourself. I don't need to know much to see that.
Nope, no contradition. Keep reading it few more times.
@Muashkis
" no one here is attacking your moral stance. Neither your faith in God in itself (tho we do find it ridiculous). Then you haven read everything lol. I have been attacked verbally for everything i say but, i already knew and expected that prior to my first post. Just shows how intolerant people (atheist in this case) truly are of anything that does not 100% fall in line with their ideologues and beliefs
"The bigotry pointed out is simple, yet very hard to grasp for a believer." facepalming myself at the hypocrisy of this statement
"Faith has nothing to do with Logic" Absolutely and 100% false.
"Pascal's Wager https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager is by far the best theistic argument put forward so far" This guy speaks too general, come back to me when you have something specific to Islam, not all theists.
"If you still can't agree on this simple distinction, then we're done" Unless, your points are specifically about Islam then its best we are done.
"as for Breezy - he's a worse bigot than SfT. At least our muslim friend here seems to suffer from only one form of it, " Didn't you say no here is bashing my faith in god? lol ummm, ok. does being passive aggressive not count? I guess it's my fault for expecting consistency and honesty from about 95% of people on this forum. Maybe if you have a higher moral standard you held yourself to instead of your own whims and desires maybe, just maybe, you would find some consistency between your words and actions.
You've been attacked for making up bigoted lies in your OP. Like claiming gender dysphoria was a mental disorder, for instance.
@ Muashkis
Breezy is a protestant of sorts, his church does not believe in eternal souls I think he said...so that narrows it down to a few minor sects. He is very cagy about revealing his affiliations as it will, I suspect, immediately lay him open to arguments that have a lot to do with his particular twisted brand of theism, rather than the self confessed brilliance of his intellect.
Plenty of members know my denomination; it's not a secret. Your inquiries are borderline straw-man, so I ignore them.
@Breezy
“Your inquiries are borderline straw-man, so I ignore them” Glad to know I am not the only one that sees and does this.
Yes that's true, you are at least as dishonest and evasive as Breezy. I'm not sure why you are celebrating this fact though. You have both come to an atheist forum, I'd have thought you could see the rationale behind people asking you to clarify precisely what you do or do not believe. You have bleated loud enough and often enough on here that atheists make generic assumptions about your beliefs, now you smugly claim you don't want to answer specific questions about those beliefs, quelle surprise.
Are you a young earth creationist? I've asked you this several times and as far as I am aware you've never answered John.
I also fail to see how questions asking for more detail and clarification on your religious beliefs are a straw man, that sound like evasion to me John. Why would you want people to make assumptions because you're unwilling to offer candid answers about your faith? What is it you're hiding?
This sounds like your dishonest evasion if my question when you claimed you'd still deny the scientific fact of evolution even if you were an atheist.
So I tested that claim and asked you to list a few scientific facts you denied that didn't in any way refute or contradict any part of your religious beliefs?
Do I even need to point out that your absolute refusal to answer was precisely the test I was setting and that you obviously failed?
Again you seem almost to lack the strength of your convictions, and people can only infer your evasion is hiding something. If as you claim the question is not relevant why not answer it candidly and show why? On the other hand if as I suspected you know you only dispute scientific facts when they disagree with your religious beliefs, then it shows you are lying about your motives.
Again your absolute evasion of the question, and the frustration and contempt you show me for asking such questions speaks volumes.
Cagy? I admire your use of diplomatic metaphor. Let's face it he tells whopping porky pies. Who can ever forget...
"The bible condemns slavery"
Deleted. Not relevant to this thread
@old man
“Your previous answer cannot be accepted” Not my problem you don’t accept it and neither is it my goal to make you accept anything. You ask a question, I provide an answer. How you receive/acknowledge it, is not my concern.
“as atheists do not have a common text or texts to justify their actions. Please try again, addressing the salient points.” Well, since you said please lol. I will answer your question with my own question. If some atheist threw someone of a rooftop and said he did it in the name of atheism. How would justify or explain it? Let’s see if you actually see where I am going with this question.
@SfT
And that is a typical theist response. Evasive, mendacious and sad to say, risible. As you find it impossible to answer my very straightforward question I will answer yours.
Atheism has no written texts or codes of behavior. Nowhere is it written in any atheist book that I have read that the LGBTQ community are to be regarded as anathema. So if I was to come across a deranged group attempting to bully or kill by any means a trans or LGBQI person, "in the name of atheism" I would stop them. Because it is plain wrong for any group in society to execute and bully another member of a group for ANY REASON. The fact the "in the name of atheism" is a joke and an outrageous one at that is beside the point.
Now to your point (which you adroitly avoid) I do agree with you that the references to homosexual activity in the Qu'ran refer to Sodom and the story of Lot, hence the description 'Liwat'. However the death penalty for such behaviour is in the various Hadith, only the manner of execution varies by various traditions not the penalty itself...oh unless of course they accused "repent" then they are to be left alone... according to the Qu'ran
Which means that you adhere to some of the Hadith but not others...again...could the Perfect Allah and the Perfect Prophet not actually get it right and forbid vigilante action by various groups in the name of said perfect prophet? And how do you justify only YOUR interpretation as the correct one?
I answered your question, there is no written basis to claim atheism as a justification for an execution, but much writing to justify it in Islam...so are these hypothetical vigilantes apostates? Are they wrong? What would you do? Why would you deny their interpretation of the Hadith?
Given how long this thread has gotten, is there a way to find out where the new replies are? I find it annoying having to skim through a few pages prior to the newest post/reply.
Thanks
Even I have to agree on this one. It does consume a bit of time searching for the new replies, especially when the first new reply is on the first page and there are 10+ pages.
Only solution I can think of is to just make a new reply so it goes to the very end with a link back to the post you are responding to. You can use the "Permalink" thing to get the URL for pasting. Just use multiple tabs when browsing and replying as I do.
Otherwise, good luck.
rmfr
Edit to Add: Also use the R-Clk > Open in New Tab feature. That is how I get the URLs and paste them in...
@old man
Thank you for your reply
“Nowhere is it written in any atheist book that I have read that the LGBTQ community are to be regarded as anathema” Do you think it says that in the Quran? If yes, can you please point out where it says that in the Quran? Also, whether it’s written in an atheist book or not, do you think that will stop 100% of atheists in human history from ever doing such a thing?
“So if I was to come across a deranged group attempting to bully or kill by any means a trans or LGBQI person, "in the name of atheism" I would stop them. Because it is plain wrong for any group in society to execute and bully another member of a group for ANY REASON.” That’s awesome and that is something we both agree on.
“The fact the "in the name of atheism" is a joke and an outrageous one at that is beside the point.” The exact same thing is said about Islam. Just because some brain damaged people choose to say it’s in the name of Atheism or Islam does NOT mean it is.
“However the death penalty for such behaviour is in the various Hadith, only the manner of execution varies by various traditions not the penalty itself” While I am not personally aware of these Hadiths you mention I will say this. How many times in human history has the death penalty in Islam carried out by an ISLAMIC state and rule of law? I am not talking about regular people doing this on their own or ISIS and other extremists. My question is specifically limited to this order being carried out by the an Islamic state/country/region in the rule of a Caliphate? You have about 1438 years worth of history to try and find that answer. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia and other Muslims countries today are NOT the same as an Islamic state/country. Personally, I think the entire Saudi royal family are worse than the Zionists.
“oh unless of course they accused "repent" then they are to be left alone... according to the Qu'ran” Repenting is something between a person and Allah. Something no one on earth can nor should they try and hold them accountable for it
“Which means that you adhere to some of the Hadith but not others” False, context in the Hadiths is very important. Fasting during the time of Ramadan consists of a few things that go beyond simply not eating, one of them is refraining from sex while fasting (not the whole month). A man went to the Prophet and asked him if he is allowed to kiss his wife while fasting, the prophet said No. Later on another man asked the Prophet the exact same question but this time he answered yes. So there was a man that was there during both times and asked the prophet why did you give 2 different people 2 different answers to the same question? He said the first person was a young man that recently got married and I was worried if he started with a kiss it would lead to something more than that, while the 2nd person was an very old man that can control himself and his urges. Context and the person you are dealing is VERY IMPORTANT. The reason I bring up this specific example because I actually had an atheist bring this up but on half quoted and kept out the context in his failed attempt to strengthen his weak Islamic hate game. This is one of the beauties of Islam is that it’s not a 1 size fits all religion. Islamic haters either willfully ignore or just never stopped to consider the “common sense element” Islam really has. You can have the same person faced with the exact same hard decision in his life at 2 different times and take 2 different approaches and both will be valid because, his personal situation 1) may have changed over time 2) he found an easier way to the same solution. Do not throw out the context and the “common sense element” when looking at or judging Islam. Muslims are actually encouraged to always choose the easiest path when faced with a decision, same as the Prophet did because Islam is here to makes our lives easier, not harder.
“And how do you justify only YOUR interpretation as the correct one?” Islam’s #1 message is peace, if someone tries to explain and interpret something and it ultimately went against the #1 message of peace I will immediately question it. 100% of the time this has there was some twisted motive behind that person’s interpretation its always either 1) The person was/is a hater and dumbass and had no idea what he was talking about 2) Someone simply trying to spread false info (see Sheldon’s awesome quora link in a different post). 100% of the time when they are questioned about it they will back track and begin changing their word. In Islam there is a “measuring stick” if you will, to always go back and check if you understand deviates from the #1 message. If you use that same “measuring stick” you will easily see who’s on the right path and truly being genuine and wants a better place/world vs. those who are using it for personal gain. Oh, and it’s not my personal interpretation, it’s the interpretation of scholars that know way more than I ever will but, that does not mean I do not question it if I think the message deviates, I could be wrong or maybe I misunderstood. It is actually part of our faith and an obligation on ourselves to question anything we think is not right, the very first word revealed in the Quran is “Iqra” which has multiple means, a few are to read, learn, question, observe and verify. So, the very first word ever revealed to the Prophet was focused on obtaining knowledge and verifying it. People back in the day questioned the prophet for various reasons, never once was his answer “just because”, the same way the Prophet explained himself to the people, our scholars today are required to do the same. And the same way People questioned the Prophet to get a better understanding, we still do the same today to our scholars.
“I answered your question, there is no written basis to claim atheism as a justification for an execution, but much writing to justify it in Islam” Please show me. If you do find something please make sure you provde the full context as well as using the “measuring stick” to see if sticks to the main message or not.
“so are these hypothetical vigilantes apostates?” As for the word apostates, I personally, cannot judge what is in a person’s heart however, we can judge actions. Based off their actions ALONE, I can say that they are for a fact not acting like a Muslim. The reason I do not wish to rush to judgment when it comes to calling them apostates is because 1) that’s something between them and Allah 2) honestly, I don’t care, I have myself to worry about first, before worrying about what others are doing across the globe. I live in CA, you don’t see these types of people around here ( or anywhere in the US). So, I won’t waste my time worrying about those people. If it were up to me, I would go Hiroshima on them and drop a nuke for the greater good of humanity.
“ Are they wrong?” Yes, remember the “measuring stick” I talk about?
“What would you do?” Again, measuring stick and see if my actions or their actions fall in line with Islamic teachings.
“Why would you deny their interpretation of the Hadith?” Again, measuring stick
(Avoids) searching for the truth..
"the LGBTQ community are to be regarded as anathema” Do you think it says that in the Quran?"
" The Qur’an (4:16) demands unspecified punishment for men guilty of lewdness together unless they repent."
@ SfT
“Nowhere is it written in any atheist book that I have read that the LGBTQ community are to be regarded as anathema” Do you think it says that in the Quran? If yes, can you please point out where it says that in the Quran?" No, because I never said that. I specifically mentioned the Hadith that you claim not to have read.
To help with your education here is a short precis: " the Hanafi school of thought, the homosexual is punished through harsh beating, and if he/she repeats the act, death penalty is to be applied. As for the Shafi`i school of thought, the homosexual receives the same punishment of adultery (if he/she is married) or fornication (if not married). This means, that if the homosexual is married, he/she is stoned to death, while if single, he/she is whipped 100 times. Hence, the Shafi`i compares the punishment applied in the case of homosexuality with that of adultery and fornication, while the Hanafi differentiates between the two acts because in homosexuality, the anus (a place of impurity) may also be involved while in adultery (and fornication), the penis/vagina (which are reproductive parts) are involved. Some scholars hold the opinion that the homosexual should be thrown from a high building as a punishment for his crime, but other scholars maintain that he should be imprisoned until death.
Based on the above fact, we can conclude that, the judge is invested with full discretion as to whether this man is to be thrown from a high place or not, as a punishment for his crime. However, if the man survives death fall, the judge has the right to sentence him to death.” Islam online
Now please explain to me how the 'religion of peace' can inflict this savagery on people who have no option about their sexuality? But resorts to this savagery? You see why I asked the question? and why your replies seem to be so evasive?
When I discussed this with Islamic scholars the intense misogyny with which my enquiries ( like the catholics funnily enough) was greeted showed me the true state of Islamic law. It is chaos and up for grabs to anyone with an opinion and a following. The Islamic world is hopelessly schismatic, as you, yourself demonstrate with your reply above.
What gives you the mandate to make the claims, against the traditions and scholars of other Islamic traditions, that your way of "peace" is the correct way?
To an unbiased onlooker it merely looks like you are an apologist for the excesses and cruelty of those that claim the same authority as you.
Each and every Islamic thinker I have engaged is convinced that their way is the true way, they used the same arguments as you but come to radically different conclusions. All the while the day to day savagery and internecine conflict of the islamic world continues. As does the day to day savagery of the Christian and Hindu worlds.
Is it not possible you are all in error and that the true 'religion' of peace may be the one where gods do not exist?
"Muslims are actually encouraged to always choose the easiest path when faced with a decision, same as the Prophet did because Islam is here to makes our lives easier, not harder."
This is the single line that bothers me the most. That kind of thinking is exactly what leads to immorality. Guess you're lucky to retain yours, despite following the 'rules' you explained in plenty of detail.
Also, neither of you two practice logical thinking. You have the capability for it, I reckon, but you aren't using it. Else you would've made a point without resorting to logical fallacies based on faithful reasoning.
As for "faith having nothing to do with logic" statement I made before, I rest my case.
PS: and yes, we're done testing waters. Thank you for your insights, I'll be sure to make good use of them, whenever I get the time. And yes, post ordering is a pain in the buttocks.
@old man
“To help with your education here is a short precis: " the Hanafi school of thought, the homosexual is punished through harsh beating, and if he/she repeats the act, death penalty is to be applied.”
Thank you for that and the rest of it. Now, since you seem super intrigued and interested in the whole death penalty in Islam why did you not answer my top question? I will repeat it. How many times in human history has the death penalty in Islam carried out by an ISLAMIC state and rule of law? I am not talking about regular people doing this on their own or ISIS and other extremists. My question is specifically limited to this order being carried out by the an Islamic state/country/region in the rule of a Caliphate? You have about 1438 years worth of history to try and find that answer. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia and other Muslims countries today are NOT the same as an Islamic state/country.
The reason I repeat this question is because 1) The answer will surprise you and 2) It will shed light on the extreme and detailed amount of evidence needed to even consider carrying out this penalty. Do you research and you will find your answer
“Now please explain to me how the 'religion of peace' can inflict this savagery on people who have no option about their sexuality? But resorts to this savagery? You see why I asked the question? and why your replies seem to be so evasive?”
Find an answer to the question above and you will find the answer. Also, I am not being evasive, I just choose not to spend a long time explaining everything to you when you seem to be more than capable of finding things out for yourself. Plus, I think if you actually spent the time finding these easy answers you will actually learn something.
“was greeted showed me the true state of Islamic law. It is chaos and up for grabs to anyone with an opinion and a following”
Unfortunately, this is true and its mainly due to politics, power, corruption, greed and many other things.
“What gives you the mandate to make the claims, against the traditions and scholars of other Islamic traditions, that your way of "peace" is the correct way?”
Again, measuring stick. Yes, I will keep repeating this as long as it’s true
“To an unbiased onlooker it merely looks like you are an apologist for the excesses and cruelty of those that claim the same authority as you.”
The unbiased looked can have any opinion they want, I answer questions based off what I know and believe. How believe take and perceive those answers are of no concern to me since the answer won’t change.
“Each and every Islamic thinker I have engaged is convinced that their way is the true way, they used the same arguments as you but come to radically different conclusions”
Again, measuring stick. If you are truly so interested in this region then, I suggest use your own intellect and decide for yourself, don’t let other tells you what you think or believe. And even then, still question what does not make sense that is what I did and still do.
“Is it not possible you are all in error and that the true 'religion' of peace may be the one where gods do not exist?”
No. I would start talking about morality and universal blah blah blah but, I already know where that will go so I choose to keep my answer at simply NO.
You're almost as adroit at evading the point as Breezy. Does Islam demand the death penalty for apostacy, and for gay people who have sex with people of their own gender?
It's an irrelevant straw man as to how often Muslims carry out the barbaric demands of their holy texts, as being moral despite rather than because of what their religion demands just illustrates how immoral and barbaric these religions are, that in the 21st century their adherents have to ignore much of what their religion demands they should do.
Neither Allah nor Jesus are perfectly merciful according to the texts of those religions.
"How many times in human history has the death penalty in Islam carried out by an ISLAMIC state and rule of law?"
Don't victims of war count? Because there are *coughs* a shitload of dead bodies from conflicts explicitly started and encouraged by the Islamic state.
The numbers of internal policy show just that - how bigoted the religious law is. Anyone outside wasn't even considered as a human deserving rights. The protection of the law applied almost completely entirely only on muslims. The rights of anyone outside muslim community only existed in a form of discrimination. Even if they DID follow strictly defined rules (oppression), non-muslims were judged by regular folk. The protection of law didn't extend to them, and it also didn't condemn any muslim who took the administering of 'law' in his own hands. Yup. Very good law... if you're a muslim, that is.
You can't just take out one good statistics data, as if it represented all of the doctrine. Doesn't work. It's as absurd as me trying to convince you that because of the abolition of death penalty in my country, it makes our law so perfect, that murders no longer take place. I hope I don't need to point out the logical fallacy in there...
Again - morality is subjective. Religion might try and indoctrinate certain values, but in the end it's still subjective. You following the path of peace over the easy solution, clearly shows you at least subconsciously understand that. Following such morals is fine. Expressing yourself logically is fine. Trying to pass a horrendous religious law/doctrine as morally superior or justifiable - well, that won't slide.
@ SfT
"How many times in human history has the death penalty in Islam carried out by an ISLAMIC state and rule of law" you answered that when you also said in the same previous post you would not accept any state, as an example, that claims to be Islamic, or founded on Islamic principles and went on to give examples of Nation States that did indeed, make that claim and that you would not accept.
Simply put, you put your fingers in your ears and ignore the reality of the excesses of Islam when you want to, or it creates conflict within your bubble, You pre ordain an answer to suit your thought bubble.
I also answered that under the two main schools of Islamic law that the death penalty and or beatings would apply. You, on the other hand, instead of answering , what should be a simple question from your unique and superior stance evade with " Also, I am not being evasive, I just choose not to spend a long time explaining everything to you when you seem to be more than capable of finding things out for yourself.
Well SfT that is being bang on evasive.
" I answer questions based off what I know and believe."
That is my point, and one you have demonstrated repeatedly in this conversation. YOU DON'T. Or, you don't know Islamic traditions and laws...
" I suggest use your own intellect and decide for yourself," I have. I have come to the conclusion it is lies. You on the other hand try and defend it, weakly and without any authority save your avowed position ( I paraphrase) " I read this book (Qu'ran) and decided that, and everyone else (Sufi, Shia, Sunni), are wrong, My interpretation is the right one" That is an indefensible position considering the violence and misery Islam brings to anyone that isn't part of at least one of the mainstream cults.
With your attitude be careful what you say in public in many Islamic areas, you won't survive long.
When you get around to actually researching your own religion you might find that deep seated dissonance already within you will get a bit stronger.
But I am not wasting my time with a person who cannot even give answers to simple questions, it is obvious to anyone reading this exchange I have researched and discussed Islam at a greater depth, and with more learned scholars of all Islamic stripes than you imagined. And I found it wanting in all its guises . Not to say certain individuals aren't genuine in their faith and their peaceful intent.
You and Breezy,on the other hand, what an advertisement for theism. No answers, no reasons...mendacity, evasion, faux cleverness and wriggles.
Edited for punctuation and spelling.
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