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Well yeah, I agree gender is learned at a younger age and is perhaps less plastic than learning your nationality. But the underlying mechanisms are the same.
As to your first point, I do think males and females feel much the same way. Shame, pride, and other emotions are universal. I don't think there are any feelings or thoughts experienced by a female that a male can't, at it's most fundamental level, experience too and vice versa.
“ Shame, pride, and other emotions are universal. I don't think there are any feelings or thoughts experienced by a female that a male can't, at it's most fundamental level, experience too and vice versa.”
Well, OF COURSE, feelings are universal! That wasn’t my point. Are you deliberately avoiding my point? ‘Cuz I know you’re smart enough to get it.
When girls learn (A) and boys learn (not A), in a situation involving (A), there will be a significant difference in how boys and girls will feel about it. Are you saying learning doesn’t affect how you feel?
As a man, I’m surprised that you never had a gender-motivated feeling. But then I think cis people are kinda “nose-blind” to gender. It’s all around them; they’re used to it, so they don’t “smell” it.
No comment on the evolution thing?
I'm not avoiding your point, I'm trying to show that it isn't the heart of the problem. I agree with what you're saying, but there are feminine men who feel and behave in situation (A) the way society expects females and not males to feel and behave in situation (A). But these men don't identify as female. Even homosexual males, who could argue that their attraction to other males is due to being internally female, don't do so. So, all these things you're bringing are definitely influences, but I wouldnt agree that they are the cause or even the main reason for transgendered people.
I ignored the evolution comment, because most evolutionary explanations are made up on the spot. We don't have a time machine to see how our ancestors behaved. We barely understand how we behave in the present day, much less the past.
" most evolutionary explanations are made up on the spot. "
Well yours are anyway.
“So, all these things you're bringing are definitely influences, but I wouldn’t agree that they are the cause or even the main reason for transgendered (sic) people.”
So, you think that gender is not a main reason for transgender people. You think that it is the acquiring of the body that is the main reason?
As someone who is in the community, and has talked to many of them, I would say the two are at least equal. Feeling that the gender is wrong is a big deal with us. I talked to one trans person; He said only after his transition, when he was viewed as a male, did he realize how important the gender part was to make him feel whole. Sometimes one thing obscures the other.
Anyway. I know my gender is like my native language, and I can’t replace it with another one. And I don’t think I am a really unusual trans person. I’ve talked many who don’t have much physical dysphoria.
EDIT:
In fact, gender rules could be the source of the wanting of the body, as there a many gender rules about the body. A woman has to have breasts or she's not a REAL woman. A man has to have a larger than average penis or he not a REAL man!
“I agree with what you're saying, but there are feminine men who FEEL and BEHAVE in situation (A) the way society expects females and not males to feel and behave in situation”
I disagree.
They might BEHAVE like women do, but they will never FEEL like women do. It would never come up in a woman’s consciousness that there is anything wrong with what she’s doing. But said man would always know he is acting against what he was taught young. What you are taught young sticks in your craw. That knowing changes your FEELING.
Something occurred to me last night… I realize that the reason you’re tapdancing around gender, MIGHT BE because you’re one of the people who Believes that we don’t have the gender we say we do. If that’s true, you would be searching for the reason we would want a body when we don’t have the gender.
Well… at least you might find a reason for Walt Heyer! LOL.
But this is the point I was making earlier. Statistically speaking, the thoughts and feelings that men and woman report overlap substantially, meaning that there is no fundamental difference in their experiences. Moreover, it doesn't mean much to say someone feels like women do, because what one woman experiences can be very different from that of other women.
When I talk about cognition, I'm saying that the brain doesn't just feel and experience, it also interprets. The physical feeling of a racing heart is identical whether you are angry, anxious, or aroused. The brain takes that information and interprets it as love or anger depending on the different contexts.
The same thing applies to transgender people I believe. The raw feelings and experiences, are being interpreted afterwards as signifying the experience of a woman. That's why there are feminine men that think and act in stereotypical female fashion, but don't interpret that information as signifying they are female.
As far as gender is concerned, I view it first and foremost as the behavior of a person as interpreted through their sex. Gender is something we do and display. Whether I choose to behave feminine or masculine, it's not possible to detach one from the other. Secondly, because we live in a society of individuals who are likewise displaying their gender, stereotypical gender roles begin to emerge. We can see how people who look like us are behaving. And last but not least, as we compare and contrast ourselves with society, we develop gender identities.
“As far as gender is concerned, I view it first and foremost as the behavior of a person as interpreted through their sex. Gender is something we do and display.”
Gender is NOT ONLY something we do and display. We internalize it at young, brain forming age. It becomes a part of us. It changes us. We think it. And we cannot change it after a critical time period. And what’s more, it’s not just masculine or feminine behaviors, but what we are: boy or girl, that is a part of me.
And since we do this at a young age, we don’t KNOW how ANY people glean that they are a girl or boy.
“The raw feelings and experiences, are being interpreted afterwards as signifying the experience of a woman”
I don’t think there is any "afterward’s" about it. The knowing that you are a male or female comes FIRST. I certainly don’t remember thinking that I acted “strange” for my gender first, and then thought that I must be a certain sex. It was the other way around.
I know that young uneducated people will blame their gender on their behaviors, but even they don’t remember the first time they labeled themselves as a girl or boy, and cannot tell you why. Again, we don’t KNOW how ANY people glean that they are a girl or boy. We simply disagree on this point.
The chicken or the egg.
We can argue about it all day, but I am still my gender.
AMEN!
rmfr
Do you think we are born with any part of gender or as a gender? I don't know if my question is clear, what I am trying to say is, if at birth a baby boy or girl is thrown in the jungle and somehow grew up (think Tarzan). Do you think the boy will grow up to act like men do? Or do you think the man will can somehow act like a woman? I know my example is a bit extreme but, keep in mind this baby (now all grown up) has never met another human. What do you think he or she will naturally and most likely end up acting/behaving as? Will that person's gender coincide with their biological sex?
Please try to keep the answer straight forward. I'm talking about a baby that is born biologically 100% male or female.
Sft:
In that situation, I know the human being will grow up learning how to survive. Everything else would be moot.
rmfr
How are you still talking about this and confusing the two terms? One is biological sex, one is gender identity. Two different, but: yes, similar things. There is biological sex that you were born with, and the other is gender identity that is formed after birth.
Lets see if I can make this more simple to get it through your thick skull. A kid may be born to grow up a little shorter and end up being only 5' 2" due to genetics, consider that the "biological sex" That kid may decide later to really like basketball, and wants play lots of basketball. (Basketball player is the stand in for gender.) Sure the kids biological height might not make them well suited to be a basketball player in some ways, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with a kid wanting to be a basketball player, it should be supported if that is what the kid wants. Is the kid going to be an MVP for the NBA/WNBA one day? No. (Can a transgender female carry a kid to term? No.) Can the kid play basketball? Sure. (Can a person take on an opposite gender role? Sure!)
Real question is why are there so many people feel so threatened by this transgender thing. Why does the people that find the idea perhaps a bit unsettling care so much? It does not affect them. What is it to them? Why not worry more about real threats, like an early death due to poor diet/exercise habits? Or their commute to work getting increasingly more dangerous as the highways and roads get increasingly more congested and dangerous?
Apparently you are still stuck and confused this thread is about fear of transgender instead of just trying to get a better understanding. Keep thinking it's about fear if it makes you feel better
" this thread is about fear of transgender"
Then you really are an illiterate cretin. Since your title implies it is a delusion. Doubly ironic given your delusional superstitious beliefs are the motivation behind your blind bigoted prejudice. Trans people are not delusional, your beliefs however demonstrably are. You're also thoroughly dishonest as you have lied repeatedly calling it a mental disorder for instance, even admitting later it was not classified as one. Your asinine claims that everyone who objects to religions is a "hater" just makes your hateful prejudice all the more ironic of course.
*From your OP...
" Putting all feelings and opinions aside, looking at this mental disorder (as it's currently classified) why should someone accept or deny this disorder?"
You're too stupid to understand but fear is a feeling an emotion, and as we see you quite specifically claimed in your OP you wanted to set aside all "feeling", so your a liar, again.
As always it's baffling why people like you choose to hate others who are different. Just live your life believing delusional superstitions if that's what you want, and let others live theirs.
You're a lost cause bro
Delusion does not mean fear but good try, Sheldon. Seems all you and your avatar share and that you are fake smart people. Good luck bro. I'll pray for you
@Searching for truth:
We have all tried to help you understand already in this long thread, biological sex at birth is not equal to gender. Really simple concept really. You seemingly do not understand that simple concept. And still conflate the two. If it is not fear that makes this simple concept so hard for you, then what is it that's preventing you from absorbing this simple point?
"meaning that there is no fundamental difference in their experiences."
"because what one woman experiences can be very different from that of other women."
Between group variation vs within group variation, it's statistics.
@Nyarlathotep
What did Redd say in that prison movie?
"Ain't that the God Damned Truth."
Even I find it funny that I know it better than he does and all I took was around six to eight classes (beyond the 101, I think one was like a 451).
And yet he says he is going for his masters.
I think what his problem is that he has ONLY book knowledge and NONE real life experience knowledge.
rmfr
The doctors at the office called him a quack when I asked them about what he said. I personally think that label is a bit harsh for someone who is still in the process of going to school.
Perhaps the disagreement between your doctors and I, is that I'm more of a cognitive psychologist and they're clinical psychologists. As such, they're clearly focusing on the clinical mental health aspect, whereas I'm focused on the cognitive side. Gender dysphoria, at bottom line, is a cognitive issue and distress is completely irrelevant to it.
V.S.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The doctors' were right; you are a quack.
I suppose this is what happens when you skip out on 8+ years of education, but think you know something because you have the DSM on your desk.
But that is NOT the only problem.
You are also an Absolutist.
rmfr
Breezy "when you extract bits and pieces of different theories, you typically end up with no theory at all."
Put me more in mind of his ideas on species evolution.
@arakish
I actually studied math in college. But this is my passion now.
I know a lot about C-PTSD because I think I got it simply from being raised in the wrong gender. My parents were teachers and wouldn't have hurt me if they'd known.
We all need more understanding people in the world, like you.
@PerceptionLies: Thanks. I have always held to the fact that we are ALL humans. Despite all the bullshit this world tries to enforce on me, I have always felt it is not completely correct. However, it is the Absolutists which make it impossible to exist in this world without bowing down to their sky-faerie and kissing its ass. Us Atheist are the ones who are suffering the religious persecution. NOT the other way around.
@Breezy
Ask you professor again. Looking at JUST PTSD, not the C-PTSD, only PTSD. PTSD combines all of the symptoms from several other disorders, mainly: Major Depressive Disorder, Social Anxiety Disorder, Bipolar Disorder, Schizophrenic Disorder, Disassociative Disorder, Substance Abuse Disorder; I think you should get the picture. It is due to this FACT alone that makes diagnosing PTSD so damned difficult. When I first wrote my paper, Soul Shatter: The Hidden Effects of Severe Physical and Psychological Trauma, over 80% of PTSD sufferers were being misdiagnosed. They have gotten that number down to about 55%. That misdiagnosis means the PTSD sufferer is receiving the wrong forms of counseling and medications, which does nothing but drive them further down the hell hole of what they are actually suffering. Even I was misdiagnosed as having ONLY Major Depressive Disorder after the loss of my family. However, when I went back to my psychiatrist and therapist and showed them my paper and ALL of the research I had dug up, even they admitted I was misdiagnosed.
The good thing of having done all of that research is it gave me the knowledge of what I was suffering from and dealing with. As said, it was the "forewarned is forearmed" syndrome. Since I had the knowledge, I could deal with it on my own. However, even I have to admit I still suffer. And shall suffer to the day I die. I can also admit, due to the knowledge, it is no longer as horribly terrifying as it used to be. In fact, after receiving our paper back from grading, we were to read our paper to the class over the next few weeks. Guess what happened the night before I was due to read my paper? Take a guess.
I do still suffer from night terrors where I will awake and have that disassociative, sometimes coupled with the schizophrenic delusion, of still being in that accident that killed my family and damn near killed me. And it takes me quite a short while to use the meditation techniques I have learned to bring myself back to reality. A question for you: How would you feel to know you may suffer from a night terror so horrible that when you awake, you do not know where you are but believe you are elsewhere?
Hell, download this paper (Soul Shatter) and give it to your professor and see what he has to say about it. Please, I give you complete permission to do so. I ain't afraid of anyone reading it. Nor am I ashamed of what anyone may think of me after reading it.
Thus, yes, a person can suffer from several different mental disorders, even if they appear to be mutually exclusive and diametrically opposed. In fact, I have even proposed a totally new mental disorder which does combine the narcissism, schizophrenia, and inferiority complexes into RTSD: Religious Traumatic Stigmatic Disorder.
However, another group has already done this. They call it RTS: Religious Trauma Syndrome. This is very similar to PTSD.
http://journeyfree.org/rts/
So, tell me how a person CANNOT suffer from Narcissistic Personality Disorder AND Schizophrenic Delusion Disorder AND Inferiority Complex Disorder when ALL three virtually describes a hard-core Absolutist such as yourself.
I'll let you mull that over. I will dig up that paper I wrote (IIRC it was titled): Possible Mental Disorders Suffered by Inexorable Believers of Religion. However, it might take me a while since it is one of those about 500 DVDs of backed up data I have. And that is not including the almost 100 double-sided DVDs I have from my latest degrees earned.
rmfr
@Arakish
When I have time, I am going to read your soulshatter in full I think I will find it very interesting. The excerpt you posted a month or so ago I found to be quite profound.
There was a ted talks I watched a while back (Big fan of ted talks and tedx!) Anyhow there is one episode where the guy talks about the medical field of psychiatry and one of the first things he says is something along the lines of: "Psychiatrist are the only doctors that usually do not look and examine the body, a heart surgeon will examine the heart, usually via cat scan or mri, then open you up if necessary and perform physical repair on the heart. Same for an eye doctor, or a urologist or so on.
The point is, all other doctors look at the person and try to make informed decisions, where a psychiatrist is more like throwing darts at the board, blindfolded. This guy suggested using mri's and cat scans more, but more importantly developing new technologies that can read brain activity more accurately so diagnosis can be quicker and more accurate. If you are interested and have not seen it before I will try to find the ted talks link.
@LogicForTW
And that would be nice when they get to that stage of diagnosing mental disorders. It is a shame that I was in that "more than 80%" that get misdiagnosed. And yes, earning my later degrees and exploring further into psychology made me realize just how difficult it is for them to accurately diagnose mental disorders, especially PTSD since it has the symptoms of so many other disorders rolled into one big, giant miasma of corrupted mental thoughts.
I shall be the first to admit that I have NEVER blamed my psychiatrist and therapist for their misdiagnosis. After that first paper (the link above is the same as I posted with some enhanced elaboration), I was intelligent enough to know that it was NOT their fault. Not truly. Yes, they did misdiagnose me; however, look at what they were up against. I mean, Damn! That one disorder has ALL those other disorders rolled into one. Damn!! I find it amazing that they can accurately diagnose anyone as having PTSD. Again, DAMN!, look at what they are up against.
And then look at the further complications that C-PTSD has.
https://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/PTSD-overview/complex-ptsd.asp
Mostly, Complex PTSD is only applicable to persons such as a women in an abusive relationship for decades (for just one example). However, the VA has actually found that it can be applied to persons similar to my case, who still suffer night terrors that can cause them to awaken into a disassociative and schizophrenic state. Although I no longer go through the actually physical occurrence, the mind's ability to relive that event through night terrors creates the same long term traumatizing effect.
One way I look at C-PTSD is that it is PTSD that continues to "bully" the person. However, it just tends to be a "bully" they cannot escape. No matter how hard they try...
I am just thankful that I have learned enough knowledge to work my way through these night terrors, when they do occur. I just hate the fact that I can never determine how long they last. I am also thankful that I have suppressed them enough that they no longer occur during my awakened state as they used to do. It used to be that all I needed to do was to hear a tire screech and I was gone... And sometimes, it would be so bad, I'd wake up to an EMT with smelling salts.
Most people, especially those sorry ass Absolutists, just cannot understand what severe physical AND psychological trauma does to a person. What I went through literally and utterly and completely annihilated what I use to be. I am no longer anywhere near the person I used to be in the years before 1998. I mean, 7734, it took me literally 10 years to get to a point to where I can accept being back in society again. And yes, I was attending college during those years. That is only because I am at my most comfortable when I am in a "classroom" learning and studying and interacting in a setting where knowledge and ideas are exchanged, discussed, debated.
I mean, just look at how I can be so damned verbose here. I am surprised some of you ain't just come out and told me to shut the fuck up.
And even then, I have returned to living in the "boonies" instead of living in either "suburbia" or "urbania." I do not like being around a lot of people anymore, except the classroom thing.
I think a lot of it has do with the fact that the severe TBI I suffered has slowed my mental thought processes down to a point that if someone verbally assaulted me (and I do NOT mean actually cursing me out, but meaning assaulting as in disagreement, etc.), I cannot think quickly enough to verbally defend myself. I now have to sit and think and cogitate to get my thoughts coherent. Otherwise, if I just splooged them out, it would be nothing more than an incoherent babbling. The combined Adult ADHD, Complex PTSD, and the brain damage from the severe TBI, is almost too much to deal with. However, I have learned techniques, especially meditative, to deal with that bullshit.
Even today, I have to admit that I do get suicidal thoughts. I just don't carry them out. Sometimes I feel I am too much of a coward to just "end it all." To end the constant struggle dealing with the intrusive thoughts I do NOT want rambling around inside my head. And sometimes, some of those thoughts are so sickeningly violent and repulsive, I find myself wanting to commit suicide in order to end them.
However, talking about this crap DOES help tremendously. Even just writing it down into Word DOCX files that will never see the light of day in someone else's eyes helps tremendously. Yes, I encrypt those DOCX files. Some of the thoughts that go into them are so frightening, any other sane person would seek to have me committed to a rubber room with a straight jacket. And then they would launch the key to the sun just to make sure it was lost.
Finally, in all honesty, with finding the new family I have found here at Atheist Republic does give me the mental support I need to make dealing with this sorry ass sick and wicked and repulsive mind my mind has become. I shall be the first that some Absolutist are going to set off a fuse here and there. And that also is where I just have to back off, cool off, think and cogitate before I write a response.
Gads, here I've gone and done it again. Gone off on a wild tangent and verbosed y'all to death. Sorry.
And thanks for being here. Just wished it was here 20 years ago.
rmfr
Edit: fixed some misspellings and omitted words
LogicForTW
Dag nab it. I menat to add to my post to please send me that TED talks link. I am actually subscribed to TED talks. Don't get enough time to view my subscribed channels anymore. Too dang busy.
I even watched another video, may have been a TED talks but not sure, about a female psychiatrist discussing just how horribly difficult it is to diagnose some one as suffering from PTSD due to it having all thos symptoms from so many other disorders rolled into one. She discussed how a psychiatrist AND therapist team has to work for a long period of time delving into the person's mind. Thus, Breezy does have it correct how difficult it is to decipher a person.
Thanks, bro. Keep the logic for the world coming.
rmfr
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