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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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I will ask this... as you put it there are people raping and killing.... of those are any of them christian?
Surely are, you can’t judge a religion rightly by looking at those who don’t rightly follow it.
Your right please show me in the Bible where god says don't kill people... but if that same god then commands people to be killed wouldn't that make him a hypocrite??? See the real issue is that the men that wrote this fairytale left themselves little loopholes in order to keep what they wanted. Show me in the Bible where slavery... the owning of another human as property is condemned! Please don't just avoid this like you have done this entire thread...
Also if you say yes then why should they stop? What in the Bible tells them that the Old Testament is invalid? And if you could please cite the verse!
I did not say, nor do Protestant Christians believe the Old Testament in invalid. The belief is that the mosaic law is not for Christians. The moral law which Jesus commanded Christians to follow today to a much higher standard ex the sermon on the mount is binding.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/Christian-law.html
Ok good talk, would be helpful for us both if we tried to honestly understand each others point of view in order to arrive at the truth rather than read a book in order to disprove it.
I challenge you to honestly read the gospels and tell me if Jesus who Christians believe is God is unkind, unloving, or immoral.
Ok so let's say Jesus was an awesome dude... so god was the immoral asshole? So in your mind god is the absent dad that never cared and beat your mom but he bought you presents once a year? God said let there be sin then sent a loophole down to correct it? I think you need to reread your holy book with some doubt in your mind. I was a Christian for 20 years trust me I have argued the same things. I was convinced and I gave the same sorry excuses for what I believed but then I actually picked up my book and read it cover to cover and when I sat it down I was an atheist because I realized that it was bullshit. I realized that everything I was taught is Sunday school and Wednesday bible study and youth group and vocational bible study was bullshit. Please read your book come back with scripture really ask yourself if god was moral why didn't he snap his fingers and stop murder rape slavery??? Don't say free will because he has had no issue with drowning the whole world other than a inscestual drunk.
In the Christian religion Jesus is God.
I agree debates are fun but the Old Testament never commanded you must have slaves so I ask where does the New Testament condem such an immoral act?
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
Ephesians 6:5
Do you know the context of which this was said? What was the entire point of the teachings of Christ, which Paul is trying to tell the Ephesians?
1 Cor 7:22
For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings.
“Only let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches.”
1 Corinthians 7:17 ESV
This is the beginning of your passage this does not condem slavery. If god disapproves of something he clearly states it. No gay sex... but yet with slavery it's ok on earth but when you go to heaven your good? Umm seems like a really crafty slave master to me
A question for me is why do many Christians advocate putting the Ten Commandments in courthouses. To paraphrase Vonnegut:
If they are Christians, why not "Blessed are the merciful" on the courthouse?
Why not "Blessed are the peacemakers" on the Pentagon?
"Blessed are the poor" on our currency?
"Blessed are the meek" at the entrance to the Oval Office?
Chimp3 good question. Maybe we should. But would that suddenly make people more peaceful, charitable and humble. Doesn’t seem to have worked with the 10 commandments. What would be the atheist answer?
AJ, you asked, "What would be the atheist answer?"
There just is no such thing. There are answers from individuals who are identified as atheist. But to think there is anything near an "atheist answer", I think, demonstrates a deep lack of understanding about atheism and those identified as such.
AJ777: Your answer does not address my question. My question pertains to why some Christians insist on Old Testament tyranny instead of the teachings they claim advanced their theology. Myself, I fight to keep any trace of their superstitions out of the secular world I live in.
@aj777 and @Jon the catholic
I have an issue with your logic or lack there of... so slavery is moral dependent on the context?
I have already showed through scripture that this was not just sevanthood, also the idea behind the 6 years only relates to the Hebrews not other areas.
How can you justify the ownership of another human being as moral or good?
As for morals you have disproving your own arguments with your response to atheism. If god was real and gave a perfect moral system than why do countless christians preform immoral acts? When you say to me that I have no basis for a moral system because my opinion does not matter to the next person, you are fundamentally wrong. As a society we construct moral guidelines and laws now this does not mean that everyone will follow or obey but if the break a law there are consequences. Our laws are ever changing and evolving just as new technologies are created our understanding of the world improves. The biggest issue that theists have is their holy books do not allow them to evolve, you are stuck in a time period and the only defense is that of apologetics.
Is the Bible not the infallible word of god? Does that not assert that there is no false stories or statements? If god wanted no slavery he would of commanded so, he could have ingrained this to Adam and Eve. If your book is as holy as you claim and my understandings are flawed due to my prejudices then why are there so many different denominations? Maybe if you sat and started reading science text books you might get a better understanding of evolution and space. If you read the Bible with the need to reconcile ever immoral act you are discrediting the book itself. As soon as you say " in this context " that is where you lose me as well as most atheists (I do not speak for any) If god cared for humans as most christians explain then why would he not update his book? Why would only the early humans get this guidance? If he is all knowing he would know that in time science and technology would be able to discredit the Bible's origin stories. This being said I ask are you guys science deniers? Do you understand the definition of scientific theory? Do you understand evidence? I have a hard time believing that people can be so blinded by the fear of their mortality that they will continue to blindly follow something so ludicrous.
Please open the Bible to genesis then open a science book about the Big Bang and evolution, follow line for line the creationist origin story vs Big Bang. Then scientific theory of evolution vs Adam and Eve plus all the animals in the world. Once you have read close your bible then close your science textbooks. Close your eyes and say I want to know the truth, I want use evidence to find these answers! Now once you say these get up and take both books in your hand, walk over to the fire and choose;
You cannot have both you either have to ignore all aspects of science or you have to denounce your bible. One book is true and one is false. Let me know where this takes you. You already know my answer....
Thank you sincerely,
Burn your bible
I mentioned context and kinda misunderstood me by implying that slavery was considered fine before. No. The context I was talking about involved what Jesus taught which was to ensure that his people's souls would be saved. It's mentioned that whether you are slave or master, you have one master in heaven. Meaning, you need not be a free person to be part of the kingdom of heaven. Consider the context where both if a slave did in fact rise up against their masters, they'd simply have a bunch of dead slaves.
"... explain then why would he not update his book?"
This is an interesting point. Looking historically, Jesus didn't actually leave behind a book. He left behind a church. This church then compiled this book. But his church has been speaking against things which the Bible is silent on, like you said, slavery. This church has been at the forefront of almost every major moral issue one can think of. So you ask why he hasn't updated his book? He doesn't need to. He's left behind a church which has been teaching against moral atrocities ever since Jesus founded it.
- What you, my friend, have demonstrated is the the exact problem of the protestant doctrine of sola scriptura. Without the guidance of an authority, we will most definitely have as many versions of Christianity as there are Christians.
I don't know why this is so hard god did speak of slavery and had no issue and if you are going to assert that god could not help slaves because their masters would have killed them then you have not read your bible.
“"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.”
Exodus 21:20-21 ESV
http://bible.com/59/exo.21.20-21.esv
You said you were once a Christian. Try to remember, before Jesus left, what did he leave behind? A book or a church to speak on his behalf?
What tells you Jesus was real?
Oh! So you belong to that camp as well. We can go from the inside - out on this issue.
First, consider that Christianity started. Unless you disagree with this, we can safely assume that Christianity, when it started, had a founder. All the major religions have a singular person as their founder (I think even the older eastern ones though they may have been lost to history). We then ask who Christians say founded Christianity - Jesus Christ. If you have another answer to this, I'd like to hear who founded Christianity.
If you find that wanting, fine. You may look to other sources which mention a man named Jesus called Christ related to the founding of Christianity from the writings of historians Tacitus and Josephus (neither one was Christian).
I haven't mentioned yet any New Testament sources but you may even use those. Say, you reject Bible being "the word of God". Fine. Lower the bar and consider these documents as a historical documents which may contain error but may also contain truth. They mention Jesus in their writings, as well. You may contend that the NT was simply made up. There's a lot of evidence to think otherwise. There are so many details which, if made up, would've made the NT writers job to making up a story much easier. An example would be the Messiah was known to come from Bethlehem. But wait, Jesus is from Nazareth. Why not simply make Jesus from Bethlehem and avoid all the hassle of stating he's from Nazareth and have to deal with all the details of his parents going to Bethlehem, being born there then go back to Nazareth to be raised. Basically, the idea of Jesus being a made up person wouldn't have fooled anyone in the ancient world.
ok so let's lower the bar and assume that the Bible has false teachings and true teaching how do we now know which is which? So we throw out all obviously wrong statements which are inaccurate and then we claim the nice pretty ones that work in our favor? Also to go back to your answer on slavery and god condoning it and we just don't know why.... well then your god is an immoral inhuman childish peice of shit and I am more moral than he is. So in my eyes if you allow yourself to believe the lie and blindly follow with hopes one day he will reveal answers to immoral acts well then you my friend are also an immoral peice of shit!!
There are many things that are certainly wrong that the Bible does not expressly prohibit. Is it possible for a book to prohibit or contain laws against any immoral act a person could conceive? I think you may have a bit of confusion as to what science is the study of. Science the study of the natural world cannot be in conflict with the study of something outside of the natural world. You may be interested in a book by John Lennox called has science buried God. And since you’ve mentioned the Big Bang. How does that conflict with “in the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth. Do some reading on the Kalam cosmological argument for the existence of god which is based on the current scientific consensus of Big Bang cosmology. Science and Christianity are not opposed to each other. Perhaps there’s another reason you don’t want god to exist?
Here is my issue with what you keep avoiding.... if the Bible never mentioned slavery maybe you have a point but it not only mentions it is allows it. Please find justification for allowing a human to own another as property. God says you can own slaves, you can beat them as long as they don't die within a day or two. It gives loopholes on how to enslave your fellow Hebrew for life! You have been avoiding this the entire argument. God has no issue stoning gay's but yet slavery was too hard an issue for him to handle???
Yes science is the study of the natural world and I agree it cannot account for supernatural because then supernatural would be natural... but if the book says that all things were created within days of each other and the universe is roughly 10,000 years old now that is something that can be disproven with science. That's the issue your book asserts truth is creation and we have studied and found that your book is false.
Bible=infallible word of god
God= all knowing and all powerful
Bible-contains incorrect info
Therefore not the infallible word of god
Bible now loses credibility
No reason to believe that other parts are factual.
This book has issue after issue of claims of facts yet you still use it as truth. This is the art of cherry picking verses that work well and trying to bury or justify ones that are incorrect.
Also I will ask you why do you want god to be real so bad? Why is it you would rather think illogically then logical? Are you really that afraid of your own mortality?
Also yes the book from god who knows all and see's all should 100% have every immoral act in it.
I’m sorry maybe I’m not explaining the slavery issue clearly. Just because god gave regulations in how to treat indentured servants does not mean that God condones slavery. In fact involuntary kidnapping or slavery or servant hood is condemned punishable by death exodus 21:16. Nowhere does the Bible state the universe or earth is 10k years old. Genesis 1 “In the beginning” is an indeterminate length of time and may well be 13.7 billion years. A lack of understanding the Bible on my or your part does not make it false. I do believe the original autograph manuscripts of the Bible are infallible and the word of God, however one does not have to believe this in order to believe that an eternal personal being exists outside of the universe. Sometimes I don’t want God to exist so that I can be my own master and go my own way, however my feelings don’t matter on the issue of Gods existence.
BULL- FUCKING-SHIT AJ777!
You cannot redefine the bible to CORRECT its meaning about time. You goddamned christian always do that stupid shit to apologize for the discrepancies in the bible!
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1
"1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."
WHAT FUCKING waters? There was no water on Earth in its beginning!
"3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day."
So god made the first day, well, a day on earth is 24 FUCKING HOURS, not 13.6 billion years. And don't hand me that christian apologist bullshit that the first day could have been billions of years. That is crap and you know it.
These two first paragraphs of Genesis is telling of how ignorant the author is about how the Earth began. The Earth has always revolved around the sun and it has always rotated on its axis. So for the 4 billion years that the Earth existed a day has been 24 hours!
I could do this with every paragraph of Genesis but it is just too long, besides, it just gets more unbelievable and goofy.
Oh and BTW the only reason you actually believe in your myth is PRECISELY BECAUSE of your feelings, it certainly isn't logic!
@aj777
Ummm boom! Lol thanks mykcob4!
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