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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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@ryan: I know many people who were born in an atheist home but because Christian.
Religion is one of the most common options that people get offered when they experience troubles in their lives. A church provides instant community, fellowship, and support. It's no wonder people are persuaded to slide into religion in times of difficulty. That's how cults like the Peoples Temple recruit followers.
Christianity is in our faces everywhere. If I were feeling lonely, lost, or grief-stricken, I'm not sure I'd want to add religious guilt and fear of hell to my burden. But there's no accounting for tastes.
Far more people are turning away from religions than turning toward them. In some countries, "no religion" is becoming the majority answer in census data. I'm sure that there are also large numbers of people, including many clergy, who've lost their beliefs but stay in their religions because of inertia, fear, etc.
I also want to add to Algebe's excellent post:
The total population to filled church seats on an average holy day, ratio has gone way, way! down in the last few centuries. People may identify as theist, but their devotion to it has dropped precipitously as a whole.
Algebe,
"And if the universe wasn't perfect for us, we wouldn't be here talking about it. That's all."
Actually the universe only became perfect for us a minute ago in cosmic time. We could cease to exist in another minute.
http://astronomy.uconn.edu/lectures/TheEarthTimelineToiletPaperLesson.pdf
@Dio Re: "We could cease to exist in another minute."
Crap. Do you think I have time to finish my Poptart?
Ryan: "We just so happen to have the perfect mass energy density for life to be possible"
Where is life possible for us? Underwater? Above the stratosphere? Inside a volcano? The fact that our lives are possible only within a very narrow range of environmental/ biological conditions does support the argument that we are evolved creatures.
What would convince me that we are gods children is that we were not subject to very rigid physical perimeters. If the laws of nature were different in Toledo, Ohio vs. Timbuktu. If the laws of physics were not constant.
we wouldn't have sun or there would be a black hole. I have troubles believing life could live that way.
we wouldn't have sun or there would be a black hole.
There would be no "we".
Why do you think life is essential to the universe?
I don't but we have life therefore how did it become.
@ryan we have life therefore how did it become.
That's perhaps the most fascinating question we can ask. I won't allow any Bronze Age mystery cult to close my eyes to the real wonder of life and its origin. I follow the science and think about it a lot. The growth of our knowledge since Darwin is truly inspiring, and the best is yet to come. I'm confident that we'll learn how life started in Earth's ocean, and that we'll find life on other planets. "God created it all" is such a cop out in my opinion. We have minds.
I like your dog. What's it's name? We have a Maltese terrier called Rosie. She thinks my wife is god and I'm Satan.
Ryan : "we wouldn't have sun or there would be a black hole. I have troubles believing life could live that way."
You are correct in assuming we would not be alive if there was no sun or we lived in a black hole! How does that statement differ from my statements?
This is hard being wrong all the time :)
Brace up! You engaged us, we did not seek you out! Besides, you seem like a nice guy!
@ Ryan
Lovely dog.
"This is hard being wrong all the time"
That's the penalty for poor preparation, starting from a false premise and not understanding who you are engaging.
My friend is like you, he lives in a little "faith bubble' and gets upset whenever he has to confront reality and evidence. You are only one step away from the standard Jesus cult response of fingers in the ears and la la la ing.
You have a lot of study to do before entering a forum like this with a childish "I believe and so its true. If you can close your eyes and mind to the double standards, lack of any evidence, many of the cruel and misogynistic bible verses, then you will believe as well"
Start with logic, move on to history, anthropology, archeology, and then, like most of us here you will be able to tick the "non believer" box and have a reasonable, intelligent discussion.
No I get it, I am in your house. Yes I love my Dog his name is Ernie. I think your right I will dial it down.
your right.......... I know....... stop being a sissy Ryan. You guys would probably say it differently :) I probably haven't said anything you haven't seen before. Just another lunatic Christian that thinks he can make a difference. I know if I was in your shoes I would think I am totally brain washed. I must say being a Christian has made me a more kind person because, the non Christian version of me is not a nice person. Because of God, I bit my tongue a lot and am kinder to others. I don't understand why atheist see Christians in such a negative light. Whenever I go to church all they talk about is being kind and loving others.
@Ryan. Re: "Because of God, I bit my tongue a lot and am kinder to others...... Whenever I go to church all they talk about is being kind and loving others."
So, why do you think it is because of God you act nicer? What exactly do you consider to be "nicer"?
I grew up in a Christian household. Went to church regularly. Knew many, many "Christian" people. And, yes, at church everybody always talked about love and kindness. I know many people even now who are "Christians" and attend church regularly. No doubt when they are in church they are always talking about love and kindness. But I also knew/know many of these people OUTSIDE the church. And, honestly, many of them aren't exactly the kind of folks I would choose as "role models", if you know what I mean. Even so, it does not mean I dislike them or wish them any ill will. Most of the time I simply find their double-standard behaviors to be rather sad and/or humorous, depending.
And as far as "biting your tongue" because of god, why do people always seem to believe that speaking one's mind or speaking the truth is always such a bad thing? Granted, there is a time and a place for discretion, and simply flinging derogatory remarks is rarely beneficial. That aside, though, how does "biting one's tongue" translate toward making one a "better person"? Personally, I was always taught "honesty is the best policy", even if the truth is sometimes hard to hear (or, in some cases, hard to say).
I grew up in a Christian household. Went to church regularly. Knew many, many "Christian" people. And, yes, at church everybody always talked about love and kindness......
Generally speaking I agree with you. I think on average most Christians are not much different. I do not sit here and tell you I am better because I am a Christian, I am a sinner like everyone else. There are a few that are really close to God and you can see it in their actions.
Now the biting my tongue thing, I am referring to being better about treating others as you would like to be treated. I have found when my walk is closer to GOD I am just kinder in general versus when I have lost my focus.
Hi Ryan. You wrote, “ I have found when my walk is closer to GOD I am just kinder in general versus when I have lost my focus.”
How do you then explain kindness in people who have no gods?
sure people are capable of being kind without god.
Could you be good without any gods?
Hi Ryan,
"Whenever I go to church all they talk about is being kind and loving others." What they really mean is others who look, sound, live and worship like them."
Also if you wish to search back on threads under my name, there are three that discuss data from scientists inching towards an understanding of how life came to be, the process of abiogenesis.
Thank you I will look it up.
Do not worry, at least for me, I see christians, Islamic, and many other religions is roughly the same light. Do not feel christianity is being singled out, at least by me.
I like that :)
@ Ryan
I was actually asking for you to dial it up as regards some decent arguments on your position.
You cannot take a historical position as in your OP about the existence of your jesus as a god without expecting questions regarding the validity of all the other gods that mankind has, and does, claimed to exist. You started the discussion yet were completely unprepared for the responses.
You are not prepared for the truths that have come at you. Almost everyone in this forum has researched as a scientist or logician or is a hobby specialist in one or several fields, and some, in addition, have long and honorable public and military service careers.
"I don't understand why atheist see Christians in such a negative light. Whenever I go to church all they talk about is being kind and loving others."
These "loving" christians also condemn all the men women and children in the world who don't accept their sects beliefs to the everlasting tortures of hell for eternity? Denying the LGBTI community human rights? Denying atheists the right to hold public office? How about the classic sending a plane load of bibles instead of food and medical aid to war and disaster torn Africa?
I could go on but if there was a brand applied to the body of each religious follower "Hypocrisy" would be applied to the buttocks of most "loving" church going christians.
(edited for grammar)
I cant speak for people that say they are Christian but are not real Christians, those people are on their own and will be held accountable in the highest degree. Have you read the New testament? Were these "Hypocrites" that you were speaking of, anything like Jesus? Here is a question for you? What group of people did Jesus constantly ridicule and dislike the most?
@ Ryan
"I cant speak for people that"
Very true, you can not, but you can neither separate yourself from them as you share a belief in a Jewish Messiah and live your life according to his words...or as close as you can get to them. Actually you don't, like most christians you cherry pick the bits that fit, but that is a subject for another day.
Jesus (if he ever existed) didn't like many people, I can quote you verses to prove that..but that is putting the cart before the horse and a subject for another day.
Here is your question: "What group of people did Jesus constantly ridicule and dislike the most?"
Lets start at the beginning, what credible evidence do you have that proves a character called Jesus or more likely Yeshua bin Josef, son of Miriam ever existed in 1st Century Judea or close? What credible evidence do you have that he was crucified by those meticulous record keepers the Roman authorities?
Once you have clearly established the existence of this character then we can discuss his or her divinity and the logic of your faith.
Do you see this all stems from your original OP? Baby steps.
Oh and in this forum with multiple threads it pays to hit "reply", say who your comment is directed at by @******** and the first line of the post or quote from the post you are responding to.
It avoids confusion .
@ old man shouts
Very true, you can not, but you can neither separate.
I like the baby steps thing.
I was definitely not prepared for that question. I have spent almost all of my time trying to figure out the evolution and creation debate, I have probably heard over 50 debates on the subject. I love debates because you get to see both perspectives. I have always thought that everyone believed that Jesus existed it was just a matter of weather he was GOD. I need to do some research on that topic. I would like to answer the question about Jesus, the people that Jesus disliked and ridiculed the most was the Pharisees. The Pharisees in Jesus day were people that would walk around high and mighty and they were "men of GOD" they would condemn others and judge others and when you were wrong they would call you out and condemn you. These people sound a lot like the people you don't like. Jesus did not like the Pharisees because they pretended to be godly people but there were self serving. Jesus described them as hypocrites.
@ Ryan
Re: Pharisees and Sadducees, Sanhedrin and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all.
"23 Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2 The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law are experts in the Law of Moses. 3 So obey everything they teach you, but don’t do as they do. After all, they say one thing and do something else."
Yes I am well aware of the verses that refer to the Rabbinical elite of the 1st Century CE. As you will see from my reply to a later comment of yours I hardly need an education in bible scholarship. Thank-you for your courtesy in your desire to enlighten me.
What I find interesting is your interpretation that takes the words from the 3 gospels that mention the "woes of the Pharisees"
'The woes are mentioned twice in the narratives in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. In Matthew they are mentioned after Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem, where he teaches in the Temple, while in Luke they are mentioned after the Lord's prayer is given and the disciples are first sent out over the land. Before introducing the woes themselves, Matthew states that Jesus criticized them for taking the place of honor at banquets, for wearing ostentatious clothing, for encouraging people to call them Rabbi." (Wikipedia)
What reasoning do you use to expand a definition when your Jesus is reported to be plainly referring to a particular caste of people in 1st CE Judea and Samaria and NO ONE ELSE. They are identified absolutely clearly by their description and customs. They are mentioned numerous times by title in the first words of the verses in Matthew. It is plain that those Pharisees were the object of Jesus's ire...you tell me different and explain your logic.
Explain clearly how you can take these words and use them as a moral template in the 21st century?
This mythical Jesus had a beef with the local priesthood; what logic determines that you, in your wisdom, can say that this applies to every hypocrite in the world today? Surely Jesus, if he meant that at all would have been reporting as saying " and all the other hypocrites who may come after my death" But he doesn't. We are left to 'guess' and interpret for the future.
I am wiped and I want to work on this later but I do want to answer everything. if I message you in a few days or weeks from now do you have a way of knowing you got a reply?
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