Hello everyone, I have recently become interested in what kind of proof there is about The Bible's message of redemption, being false. I'm not much interested in flaws of the structure or the way it was delivered. More so, I would like to know more about the flaws of the message. Thank you for anything you could help me with.
GH
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You mean like how the message could be boiled down to (by someone sufficiently cynical, like myself): do what you are told in this life, and you will be rewarded in a promised future existence (heaven)?
Well, it's more like our actions have consequences. In the long term, it seems like we choose population control of the lesser evolved and warfare over all men are created equal, peace on Earth and good will towards others. The message is more of damage control before we die.
Do you have anything else?
I can't help but think you're asking others to do your homework for you, or for someone else.
What units is evolved measured in?
@Magnificent Beast
I just wanted to know if anyone has anything? I don't know where this could go? I don't see much wrong with the message of the Bible. The core of the message is of no benefit to anyone but the captive. Many have used it for "cynical" means. But, just like most things in life. Humans pervert things.
And there it is. Many theists come to atheist forums with a (they think) a new, roundabout way of advertising religion. It happens all the time, and atheists see it all the time, and usually will ignore the OP.
I used to be a Fundie (Nazarene; bible scholar), plus I'm bored this morning, so I'll tell you what's wrong with the message of the "Bible) (sic).
Let me preface this by asking you, if I came to your door and offered you a coupon book that could be yours for free. It gives you a roundtrip, all expenses paid in first class, to a trip to the moon. All you have to do is get on your knees, a) confess your sins to your god, b) believe there is a god, and a) accept that you are now going to go to the moon in a roundtrip, all expenses paid (in first class).
That's what's wrong with the "message" of the bible. What you guys don't understand is NOBODY IS CAPTIVE. That's a concept that your bible teaches.
People use it for cynical reasons, because there's so much there. Your god is a concept made up by humans who wanted to keep other humans in line. It is also anti-Semitic. The good guys are always the Xtians. Even Jesus, right? Nobody could leave him Jewish, therefore Xtianity was born. All the sanctification, holiness, deliverance from evil, all that is crap.
I hope this helps. If you had asked with no presumptions in your OP, this would have been a great discussion.
Have you even READ the bible? I bet not. Have you gone through at least four years of bible study? Probably not.
Again, I hope this helps you understant. I doubt it, but it has to be put out there.
What denomination are you?
@Magnificent Beast
I am of no denomination. I don't belong to a religion. I have looked into experience of all kinds of knowledge and wisdom since I was 4. When my dad killed himself, I wanted to learn everything about life and death. I learned fast and sought experience as hard as I could. For some reason, the Bible seems to be of the biggest discussion. So I would like to learn more about what people know\think about it.
If it can and has been used for cynical means, then it quite demonstrably does have something wrong with it. You might ponder how a plan from an omniscient being with limitless power and mercy could formulate and enact such a flawed plan.
This is a deity that apparently couldn't control just two humans it created in a paradise designed specifically for them, and never anticipated this, so how much reverence can anyone sane muster for such a creator and creation? Not to mention the same deity according to the bible flooding the entire planet in a rage at it's "design" not turning out as it wanted.
If turning into a ghost, in order to forcibly impregnated a virgin, in ancient Palestine. So she could give birth to it in human form, all so it could have / allow itself to be tortured to death, to appease it's own anger, over the breaking of rules it created in the first place, is impressive to anyone then I'm at a loss as to what I can say, that would indicate how obviously inept and cruel such a deity would be.
Luckily it is so obviously a fiction I needn't worry about it at all, but for the astonishing fact that there are still many people who delude themselves it is all true, and that this entitles them to dictate to others how they should live their lives.
The Christian concept of redemption is that someone died for your sins so you do not have to take responsibility for them. That is a moral judgment, and thus not something that can be proved true or false.
@Sapporo
Thank you. I like that one. Is it not true, that "concept', has helped millions of people want to make a change for the better. Not because a law or prison made them. Rather because that concept, made it their choice to do so? Without that concept, a lesser evolved person would struggle with such morality given his\her level of opportunity and oppression.
The concept does not in my view help people make a change for the better. People should take responsibility for their own actions, do good for the sake of doing good, and generally focus on making this life better rather than wasting energy on a next life for which there is no evidence for.
Most Christians worship their Christ out of fear of losing out on heaven - and many do so also out of fear of ending up in hell, which is coercion.
If you cannot appreciate why doing good things for their own sake is good without the promise of some ethereal reward and/or without the threat of violence, then I find it difficult to see how you can say they have any agency in the matter.
What do you mean by "Lesser evolved person"?
@xenoview
The "powers that be" in this world. The elites and leaders believe that they are a higher evolved being with higher intellect. Hitler was demonstrating this idea of superiority. Natural selection would indeed have stages of this.
@gh
Do you think your more evolved? Do you think your superior to other people?
@xenoview
No I definitely don't think I'm more evolved lol
Your posts are saying otherwise.
rmfr
"Hitler was demonstrating this idea of superiority."
No not at all, Nazism was predicated on "racial ideals" that were entirely subjective and arbitrary. Much of their racist propaganda is directly refuted by scientific facts.
Natural selection is a mechanism driving evolution. It is insentient and doesn't make decisions or choices.
"Natural selection would indeed have stages of this."
No sorry, but this is entirely false. Evolution is not a progression towards an end goal. All living things are evolving all the time. Natural selection means those best suited to their environment are more likely to pass on their DNA. This is called survival of the fittest, where fittest simply means most suited to their environment. There is not a hierarchy of species, or of individuals with in a species, that's not how evolution works.
"The elites and leaders believe that they are a higher evolved being with higher intellect."
I doubt this, but is absolutely false anyway. All living things are at the same stage of evolution at any given time. That is axiomatic.
Greathope:
I cook for a hobby and sustinence. I love to bake bread. I proof the yeast to assure it is not an impotent batch. I have never heard an argument for redemption that was not impotent. I would rather smell and taste a fresh, crusty loaf. Fuck all religious proofs.
@chimp3
While I thoroughly enjoy a crusty loaf as well. There is much work to do in helping people to the best of out abilities. I know hundreds of people who are happy to find a crusty loaf in a dumpster. With millions more homeless every year in America. What kind of message of hope can we bring to these people? Life is more than a crusty loaf, and death is more than we think. If God exists? He left us a bread crumbs trail. I want to know God. The message of the Bible seems to be the biggest bread crumb. So if there is anything anyone can offer? I would greatly appreciate it. Cynical or not.
So your god is one that would take advantage of your hunger and leave a Hanzel and Gretel trail? What a dysfunctional, passive aggressive sky fairy you perpetuate.
@chimp3
God is not exclusive to me. If something outside our universe created all of this? Then by default there must be a plan. That's what I search for. Because we haven't seen the ending yet. Means that we don't have the full perspective. So to assume God is any dysfunctional or passive aggressive is quite a claim. If God just forced us to love him by his presence? It wouldn't be love. We had to be given a choice. So if you want to know God? We must look for the message. That's why I'm curious to see what people on these forums might know about the biggest bread crumb? "For even though they see, they still don't believe." "The world will hate you for this message" "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." What is this book talking about?
I am not seeking any answer to any of your "spiritual" concerns. Believers have not convinced me that their concerns should be mine.
That does not seem to follow, so I'll assume it is another dubious postulate?
@ Great hope
"If something outside our universe created all of this? Then by default there must be a plan."
For the sake of argument I will (temporarily) accept that the universe was "created". Is there any proof that "something" created this universe? It may have been just an event. And I fail to see the connection between something being created by an entity and a "plan".
This known universe is freaking huge. Our sun is just a very average ball of fire in a galaxy with another two hundred billion suns. If you could travel at the speed of light, it would take you over 100,000 years to go from one end of this galaxy to the other end. And our galaxy is just one of a hundred billion galaxies.
And you believe that some god created all of this universe just so one little bunch or people on just one tiny planet have a "plan"?
@ Great Hope
Then maybe you and all your co religionists should start practising the better bits of the NT...how though, in the modern world? Ohhh...lets start with free healthcare for all, a basic minimum wage for all. All to give up all their possessions to the common fund and follow their version of Jesus, Mega churches turned into dorms for the homeless and mentally ill, a program of housing driven by need rather than money....that's your following jesus...and you would find that you would be leading by example not fear and loathing....That would be the essentially christian things to start with...Each person carrying their saviour and hope in their hearts...so no more preachers pastors, popes and bishops. No preaching...wow...I would live there.
@Old man shouts ...
Ahh a perfect world sounds so nice doesn't it? If you are looking at people or religions to show you God? Then you have placed your faith in man, not God. That's easily one of the biggest cop outs of all time. I'm asking what is a fault in the message? Not how people obviously fall short of living it. If it was easy? Everyone would be doing it. Love others as yourself? The world would be a much better place. But, it's not because we don't live that way.
@ Great Hope
So you don't have much hope for your fellow believers who have yet to produce a society that produces that which I described?
Which means none of you lot have any superiority in morality, ethics and the practice of humanitarian living.
Have to stick with good old democratic socialist (those godless heathens) in Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Scotland, France...nasty atheists the lot of them.
Your bible is full of disgusting acts, terrible betrayals and lessons in vengeance, genocide and hate. No wonder you cant run a society based on any of its precepts.
Abe Lincoln - To me, it sounds like you're claiming that the bible must be proof because what else can explain the reason for humanity, and our lives, now.
I still think you're not being completely honest about it, because you speak Christianity-ese. I've heard it before, and it's the same script. "Then you have placed your faith in man, not God."
I do believe you are looking for truth and a path for your life. At the same time, you're deluding yourself if you can't recognize that the bible is just another book, and the universe is random, and there is no god in control and planning everything. It's so safe when we are assured that "God is in control" and nothing will ever happen that God does not allow.
It's all bullshit. There is no god, the bible is just another book. and the greatest hope we have is according to the laws of the universe, the sun will set tonight, and will rise tomorrow, but god had nothing to do with it.
If there is no God, then why is anyone an atheist? What then is the point? Why have this forum or debate then that God does or does not exist? You cannot hold two opposing opinions on this at the same time.
Either you believe the sky is green, or the sky is blue - and BTW there is the verifiable, scientific evidence to the former.
The fact there is the universe, human reason, life itself, complexities in creation - all point to the very existence of God.
An atheist is someone who believes there is no God. Furthermore, they believe they have the ability to absolutely determine whether or not evidence is objective. In other words, many of them don’t recognize that they too have faith — they have faith that they don’t have faith! They have faith in the reliability of their rational powers and in the belief that they should only believe things they can prove.
Atheism is based upon a series of beliefs, most of which are unverifiable. For example, every atheist I’ve ever met believes in naturalism. It’s not that they have verifiable evidence that everything is material; they believe that everything is material.
They also believe there is no (and can be no) evidence for God’s existence. This of course is an incorrect conclusion.
In my opinion, the findings from cosmology and physics by themselves were sufficient to support the design hypotheses. All the other data simply built a more powerful case. But who or what is this master Designer? Each scientific principle contributes some clues to unmasking the Creator’s identity.
Physics—suggests the Creator is intelligent and involved. Astronomy—shows the Creator is incredibly precise, implying care, concern and purpose. Biochemistry and Biological Information—demonstrate the Creator is... creative. Consciousness—shows the Creator’s rationality, which suggests omnipresence and the credibility of life after death.
These characteristics do not describe the god of deism, who supposedly formed the universe but then abandoned it. Nor is it pantheism, the idea that the Creator and universe are co-existent. Polytheism with its multiple gods falls short, as does the impersonal force of New Age beliefs. In contrast, however, the portrait of the Creator that emerges from the scientific data is uncannily consistent with the description of the God whose identity is spelled out in the pages of the Bible.
As the apostle Paul wrote two millennia ago: “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made [that is, his creation], so that men are without excuse” (Romans 1:20).
The question of whether these qualities might also describe the deities of any other world religions became moot once you add the evidence discovered through the study of ancient history and archaeology.
@Jim
All the specious irrationalities and sweeping erroneous generalities you make in this almost duplicate post have been answered comprehensively by Sheldon on another thread.
Your fallacies just keep coming...God of the gaps, argumentum ad ignorantium, special pleading...almost every paragraph contains at least one such fallacy which destroys your arguments completely.
There is no evidence fr any deity, and especially not the current crop worshipped by 50% of the world's population under various traditions and competing creeds.
Please supply convincing evidence for your "god of the Bible", factual, physical proof that such a thing exists, raped a teenager by proxy and gave birth to itself...No? You can't?
Oh dear.
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