Hey all! I’m new to this forum, and to atheism in general (less than a year) I am from a fundamentalist Christian background, and since I’m only 15, am still pretty much still in the closet about my lack of belief. Anyway, I was listening to King Crocoduck debate “Dr” Kent Hovind, and KC brought up the theory that an amount of energy has always existed, and from the expansion of that energy, we have the current universe. This seems to be an incredibly coherent explanation. I would like to hear you guy’s thoughts on this, and competing theories.
Cheers,
DeaconOfDoubt
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You might find this interesting: zero energy universe.
Or this: universe and "three" examples, from Guth (it's kind of long but it eventually touches on what you mentioned).
No one knows. We only have hypothesis. Asserting anything before the universe is speculation. You do not get to put a God there and you do not get to put energy there. There is the universe and it is here, that is what we know. You do not actually get to call the universe infinite or coming into existence. Most cosmologists do assert a beginning currently. That appears to only be the model that fits what we currently seem to know. Now that you are no longer a theist, welcome to the world of exploration, curiosity, and the cutting edge of science. Not knowing is an amazing place to be. I, for one, wonder what we will actually discover next. I have been reading about the Electric Universe and find it fascinating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0vu-jQWCZo
Where will the frontiers of science take us next?
The "Electric Universe" is pseudo-science, I'd recommend triple checking any "facts" gleaned from such a source. Unfortunately, I am familiar with it.
Nyarlathotep: Don't doubt you for a moment. I watch the dang flat earth videos at times as well. I am always skeptical enough to spell the word "Debunked" after any search just to get the full picture. LOL - I also read half of a popular Bigfoot book today. Total BS. The author relies on Argumentum Ad Populum as he asserts all these people must prove Bigfoot is real. And then there is the evidence. Somehow fifty, one-hundred, or a thousand pieces of bad evidence can equal one good piece of evidence. Still the stories are entertaining and I know what the idiots are talking about when they begin talking their BS. Thanks - I will look into all the debunking. I know it is there.
The electric universe seems a bit far fetched. Occam’s Razor isn’t very kind to that hypothesis in my opinion. THE QUEST FOR TRUTH GOES ON!!!!
Indeed it does, sadly many prominent religious apologists (see WLC) who should know better, are happy to make fallacious claims based on not knowing how the universe came to exist as we see it. Argumentum ad ignorantiam, or a "god of the gaps" fallacy.
Deacon of Doubt: "Has matter/energy always existed?"
The true answer is: "We do not know." The only true way would be to travel back to the event that began the universal expansion and before. Until that can be done, we are basically stuck with hypotheses.
rmfr
Deacon of Doubt you are mixing two distinct situations into one stew.
There is the rapid expansion, called the "Big Bang" by apologists. Once the rapid expansion began, yes, this observed universe follows the rules of conservation of energy. The total energy of a system (this observed universe) neither gains or loses energy, it can only be transformed or transferred from one form to another.
But do not mix the laws of conservation of energy with speculation what happened before the rapid expansion. It is stupid and arrogant folly to make any predictions or pronouncements on what was going on before the rapid expansion.
If you wish to go into further detail, we can go down that route.
I was just wondering about your theories, not saying that this was the thing that happened. I understand that, given the resources at hand, we can’t possibly make any accurate statements about what happened before the rapid expansion, if anything at all was happening. But the essence of science/skepticism is taking a truth claim, and examining it closely with the resources at hand. With what we know about quantum physics, and just being able to figure out which hypothesis uses the least assumptions, we can, in a small way, begin to sift out the claims.
Cheers,
DeaconOfDoubt
Here's some speculation
https://plus.maths.org/content/what-happened-big-bang
Deacon of Doubt,
"Has matter/energy always existed?"
How do you define "always"?
The estimated half life of the element Bismuth is 20 billion billion years. The universe is only supposed to be about 14 billion years old. Twenty billion billion years is a hell of a lot longer than 14 billion years so will that qualify as "always"?
https://physicsworld.com/a/bismuth-breaks-half-life-record-for-alpha-decay/
That's just it Diotrephes, there are still many questions out there for science to answer. So far, we have explained a lot about natural phenomena, all without requiring god to be required. Science loves puzzles like this, it helps us learn more about everything.
I would define “always” in the most literal way, an infinite amount of time.
"I would define “always” in the most literal way, an infinite amount of time."
Then you're only referring to events after the "big bang". Since time as we understand it didn't exist prior to this.
So words like always and infinite lose the meaning we attach to them.
Time is the deciding factor. There was no time before the big bang. Using words that require time, will not be able to describe the conditions needed to cause the rapid expansion or anything beyond that.
Our language is the thing limiting us. We cannot imagine there being no time. We do not know what that would be like.
Meepwned,
"We cannot imagine there being no time. We do not know what that would be like."
Time is simply the movement of subatomic particles. Currently they all move at the same rate so our sense of time in this reality is the same.
What on Earth are you talking about?
Meepwned: "We cannot imagine there being no time. We do not know what that would be like."
I have. Even had a mind quest of such a thing. Most Religitards would call it a revelation, but I know it as a Mind Quest. The only problem with having experienced such a Mind Quest, your statement of "Our language is the thing limiting us." is so damned true because I cannot describe any further than saying, "It was like experiencing not time. An Eternity if you wish." Terrible thing when language just does not have the capability.
rmfr
Who knows? The first 3 elements to exist(that we know of) are Helium, hydrogen and Lithium. Not everything can be carbon-dated.
We don't know as yet. Neither do the holy books,
so don't let people tell you that they do.
Under the big bang model, at the earliest points, all energy always existed.