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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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You want God to have first consulted you on his plans that occurred 2000 years before you were born?
Yes I do he is god isn't he? This wouldn't be to far fetched seeing as you wrote earlier that it's only two days for him.
"You want God to have first consulted you on his plans that occurred 2000 years before you were born?"
I was being facetious of course, However you insisted I had a choice, and now you're claiming God made his plans 2000 years before I was born. That seems a glaring contradiction to me.
A historical event occurred 2000 years before you were born.
Unapologetically.
@AJ777
Firstly, even if on dry land, fish are free to flop around. While others, have lungs and travel from one body of water to another; freely. These fish are above your example and well above your god.
You've quoted novelists and poets, but have you ever considered reading the sciences.
Off hand I'd recommend some divine command theory from Immanuel Kant, astrophysics from Carl Sagan, or even evolutionary biology from Richard Dawkins.
These names will also carry weight, but more so of facts and reason than simply literature.
Why do you assume I haven’t read those authors works? I don’t think you understand what I said.
So god created man knowing he would disobey. Then he punishes man for disobeying. Then he sends his son to be a blood sacrifice, a scapegoat, so that man could, after that point, accept this 'gift' and be saved from God's punishment...and then he resurrected him anyway so it was more of an inconvenience than a sacrifice... And he did this in an ancient world full of ignorant people, told them to pass the story by playing telephone for a few generations, then decided to tell anonymous, barely literate, people to write the story down (cause that's how all powerful beings communicate) so that future generations of people can write, rewrite, interpret, and branch into thousands of conflicting denominations and some of them will happen to know the truth and have everlasting life after death. If not, they'll burn. **
Does that sound about right? Yeah, well he sounds incompetent at best. With a side of sadism. Probably wouldn't worship him. (And if I counted the old testament I'd have to say: never.)
Aside**Why not skip all these steps and just create the people that will love him and they could all live happily ever after in cosmic bliss with their wonderful creator?
So you’re using your free will to complain that God gave man free will, while suggesting God should have made robots/slaves who would have no choice but to worship/follow him as you refuse to follow him? Logic?
Also if Adam and Eve did not know right from wrong.. how did they understand the concept of not eating from the tree?
Freakin' logic, right? Who needs that shit?
There is no clear statement towards either belief in the Bible that Adam did or did not know what evil was. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit they trusted themselves more than God. They put themselves in the place of God.
So does god know everything?
The question is illogical because you’re essentially asking if the greatest conceivable being who necessarily would know everything, knows everything.
In your opinion do you believe god created you, knowing everything you will do?
It's not illogical it's an opinion based question.... it's not really that hard
"The question is illogical because you’re essentially asking if the greatest conceivable being who necessarily would know everything, knows everything."
I can conceive of a Leprechaun with omniscience and omnipotence, that transcends time and space, and can create universes. Does this make my Leprechaun real? In fact we can conceive of just about anything and define it in such terms, so the argument is woeful isn't it?
That particular argument fails because this Irishman could conceivably become greater.
Ok since I do not think you will answer this honestly....
If you do believe that god is all knowing then--
God created Adam and Eve knowing they would eat from the tree. He created the tree as a test knowing they would fail. So essentials god wanted humans to fail, he wanted all the evil to be released on this earth. He wanted to blame man (woman) for failing a test he purposely put there for them to fail. He is the creator of evil, he is the immoral god that the Bible describes. We have no need for him. He is anti-human, he doesn't love us he hates us. So let's say Satan created evil... well god creating Satan knowing what he would do and that he would convince Adam and Eve to eat from the tree. See this whole book folds on itself. Your god is the enemy of man, not the savior. He would rather see us tremble and be in fear of him, he is as your bible discribes the founder of evil and immoral acts.
How does knowing something will happen equal wanting it to happen? Might there be a part of the Bible that tells us the end of the story? Could it be possible that there was no other way for God to create men in his image with free will, yet not allow them to exercise free will. If you think God created evil, please explain what evil is?
" Could it be possible that there was no other way for God to create men in his image with free will,"
I always find this quite telling when apologists chip away at omniscience. If I have free will could I refuse to have it?
That’s not what I said sir. I’m saying you can’t call it freewill, if we’re not truly free to choose.
Now your starting to see how hypocritical the Bible is congrats!!!
"That’s not what I said sir. I’m saying you can’t call it freewill, if we’re not truly free to choose."
I agree, but that's not what I was responding to, if you're post is directed at me.
You said " Could it be possible that there was no other way for God to create men in his image with free will,"
This obviously infers something an omniscient deity cannot do, which is a contradiction. I have heard many apologist use this "limited omniscience" line of reasoning, and find it ironic the mental gymnastics people will go to in order to preserve an a prior belief.
You'd have to define what you mean by free will, but I don't accept the premise of absolute free will, I'm surprised anyone does tbh. It's clear we have autonomy that is governed by circumstance, which is wholly compatible with our evolved brains enabling us to make choices as far as circumstances allow. I see no reason and no evidence for anything supernatural here, but then I'm not looking for it.
Evil is god and god is evil
According to the Bible.
If you knew that your child would kill thousands and you knew this before you created him are you not responsible?
"Evil is god and god is evil
According to the Bible.
If you knew that your child would kill thousands and you knew this before you created him are you not responsible?"
I see where you're going, but moral consequentialism is a slippery slope.
I agree it can be a slippery slope but in terms of an all knowing god I feel the actions of the creation are a direct reflection of the creator. For example the only reason why were angry and jealous and mean is because God himself is angry and jealous and mean
Evil is god and god is evil? Huh?
"There is no clear statement towards either belief in the Bible that Adam did or did not know what evil was. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit they trusted themselves more than God. They put themselves in the place of God."
So we have "fee will" as long as we only use it to do exactly what God wants? Hmm, that sounds contradictory to me to be honest. We also have zero evidence that Adam and Eve existed, ample evidence the story is rife with factual error, and overwhelming evidence we evolved, with our current form emerging roughly 200,000 years ago. When did God inflict sin on us, and insert a soul? Why did he waste hundreds of millions of years evolving dinosaurs and torturing them with disease and predation? Also why did this deity wait until just 200,000 years ago to evolve us after 14.6 billion years had elapsed from "creating" the universe? Why did this deity then wait until just 2-4 thousand years ago to intervene?
You are presently choosing to not follow God and complaining that you are not free to do so?
"You are presently choosing to not follow God and complaining that you are not free to do so?"
If you are talking to me then no, I am doing neither. Since I don't believe a deity exists I can't logically choose not to follow it, no such choice exists for me. I was not complaining about a lack of choice either, just attempting to illustrate how logically inconsistent your post was, badly it seems.
Being threatened to obey an absolute set of rules or be tortured forever does not equate to freedom of choice to me, that was my point. If a gangster threatens to kill my family and then me if i don't pay him £1000 a month am I in your opinion really 'free' to choose whether to pay him or not?
For the record I'd say I was not free to choose. You understand what coercion is I take it? Then ask yourself what the consequences to freedom of choice is of using coercion. You might also want to consider that in my example a gangster can only kill me and then it's over, but in the christian concept of hell a deity gets to torture me after I die, forever.
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