If heaven doesn't exist then I've wasted my life but if it does exist then you'll be wasting eternity. If you live within a 2d world like a comic book, the 3rd dimension becomes a myth and doesn't exist until someone from that dimension tells you. Many prophets and Jesus Christ himself have been able to reveal that extra dimension of spirituality and only those who take heed will be on the safe side in afterlife
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Prove it! Prove that there is a heaven! Prove that jesus even existed!
We happen to live in 3 dimensions but we actually know of a fourth.
Do I think that you have wasted your whole life? I don't know because I don't know you or how you have lived your whole life. I know that I haven't wasted mine. No one has proved that there is a heaven so I don't worry about it. I also know that you are wasting your time trying to get converts here. Especially since you don't have any proof.
Slightly of topic but there is better documented evidence for Jesus than Caesar, should we then say that caesar did not exist? No that would be stupid.
Caesar`s writings prove he was here on earth, but he wrote them from his perspective and they provide a huge amount of historical data, and they are backed up by his contemporaries. Caesar`s oldest manuscripts are from @ the 9th C, however Cicero`s writings which support the existence of Caesar go back to @ the 5th C. These and other manuscripts give scholars the solid and robust basis for writing about caesar.
What of Jesus then? The gospels is the first port of call, these were written around the time of Suetonius and Plutarch IIRC (other writers that support what we know about Caesar), so these witnesses had either first or second hand knowledge of the people in question. Fragment P52 of John 18 is dated 125, around 35-45 years after it is thought to have been written, let that sink in a bit. Then there are almost 6 000 full greek manuscripts from the 5th C until the printing press was invented. There are also Jewish sources that include Josephus, the Testimonium Flavianum, the babylonian Talmud, Lucian, Pliny the younger, Tacitus.
If you can say that Jesus never existed with the evidence given, then you have to support the notion that Caesar never existed too.
One piece of evidence of Caesar's existence is the fact that Caligula, who was born in AD 12, was named after him (real name: Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus). You could cast doubt on the provenance of manuscripts of Caesar's writings, as with any literature that old. However, there are also coins, as well as the ruins of a temple dedicated to the Divine Julius in the Roman Forum.
I'm willing to accept the possibility that someone called Jesus existed and was crucified. What I can't accept are the supernatural claims about him.
There is no (known) contemporary source for Jesus. No matter how much the apologists tell you otherwise.
@ Don Logan
- "If you can say that Jesus never existed with the evidence given, then you have to support the notion that Caesar never existed too."
This would perhaps have been true, if it weren't for what almost every single believer seems to completely overlook: The fact there is no claims that historical characters like Caesar magically healed people from leprosy, paralyzation, blindness, etc. There are no claims of exorcisms, resurrection of the dead or controlling nature by turning water into wine and walking on water. There are no claims that Caesar rose from the dead.
The evidence required for supernatural claims are much much higher than just evidence for the existence of a normal (non-supernatural) human being. If the sources that give supporting evidence for the existence of Jesus, only support his existence as a normal human being, the evidence required to be believable would be on the same level as for Caesar or Socrates.
Apart from the Bible and later works or artefacts that are build upon the claims of the Bible, what documented evidence of Jesus is it you are referring to?
[Edited to correct spelling errors incorrect phrasing]
No there isn't! If there was ANY real evidence of jesus, you would have posted it.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/exist.html Just one of over 200,000 sites that shows documentation that Ceasar existed.
http://www.vroma.org/~bmcmanus/caesar.html
http://www.livius.org/articles/person/caesar/caesar-12/
You can also contact Oxford, Harvard, Eton, Yale, Stanford, history departments and get copies of ancient Roman documents about and by Julius Caesar. There is absolutely nothing about jesus from ancient times that would or could verify that jesus existed. No jewish or Roman documentation. No census data from the time, nothing. Romans kept meticulous records to include census data. There is nothing, squat, nada, nary a blurb on jesus. Jesus doesn't come into any documentation until the 4th or 5th century and only in biblical text.
Don Logan,
The Gospels, as any serious Bible scholar can tell you, are not eyewitness accounts! Matthew and Luke copy huge hunks of Mark, and Mark is not even familiar with the geography of Palestine! John is off on his own orbit and barely touches bases with the other three. The four Gospels are written by different authors, probably at different locations around the Mediterranean, at different times, in order to preserve and propagate different doctrines of different groups. No Gospel views itself as one of four!
Outside of the Gospels, and some of Paul's writings which seem wholly unaware of the miracles and deeds in the Gospels, the evidence for Jesus boils down to a few scraps of no real import. The clearest one in Josephus is a later insert or rewrite and, hence, of no value.
"If heaven doesn't exist then I've wasted my life but if it does exist then you'll be wasting eternity."
Look up "Pascal's wager." You sound like you're just hedging your bets. Do you think god is an idiot?
No i do not. You want eternity?
"You want eternity?"
Tell me what you think it is, and I'll tell you if I want some.
"No i do not."
That's strange, because your initial post was a Pascal's wager-type proposition, and that depends on the assumption that god is so stupid that it couldn't see through pretense and hypocrisy. But then that's the foundation stone of the entire Christian religion, isn't it.
You summation is perfect.
@ RodgerMill
Is this a "hit and run" preaching or would you care to answer some questions?
Hello? I'd like to report a hit and run. Yes, I'll hold...
This statement is profound only in its stupidity. This is not an argument. Its two dumb platitudes stuck together.
Heaven and hell are linked together and sink together in the abyss of absurdity! Shame on you if you have wasted your life! There are so many wonderful things that you might have done right here on Earth.
As to your extra dimensions, they are unadulterated, rank speculation, with about as much chance of proving true as the Easter Bunny. Heaven and hell have human stupidity stamped all over themselves. I can't even imagine a real god (wise and benevolent) setting up such a system.
@Roger Mill
"only those who take head will go "
I just noticed this in the title of your original post. Could you explain it? It sounds like being on the receiving end of giving head. Which denominations of Christianity have that rule about getting into heaven? Or does it mean we need to decapitate people?
@Algebe: I will never look at an evangelist the same way again!
Psalm 69 verse7: "For I endure scorn for your sake,and shame covers my face."
LoL
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" the only somewhat reliable, secular evidence we have for the life of Jesus comes from two very brief passages in the works of Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian. And Josephus was a prolific writer - he frequently wrote several pages on the trial and execution of individual common thieves, but on Jesus, he is silent except for two paragraphs, one of which is a known interpolation, and the other is highly suspect. Other references to Jesus in secular writings are ambiguous at best, or known to be later interpolations, or both. The earliest references to Jesus in the rabbinical literature come from the second century, even though known historical figures such as John the Baptist merit considerable discussion, even though his impact on Judaism was minimal. There are no references to Jesus in any of the Roman histories during his presumed lifetime. That he should be so thoroughly ignored is unlikely given the impact the gospel writers said he had on the events and politics of the Jewish kingdom."
www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
So we have to use secular evidence? Well that`s a fine Howdeedoo, any other ad hoc clauses you want to put in? The Jews, who were not converted/convinced hated Jesus and it would be beneficial for them to cover up all about Jesus, Check out the Talmud (Tractate Sanhedrin 43a) which gives a good account of the person; Jesus.
Anyway back to FJ, he also set the historical scene by backing up other figures such as John the baptist, Ananias and James, Jesus brother. Scott, a prolific scribe himself, seems to miss out on Tacitus in the above para, and he was robust about the authenticity of what he wrote about, using reliable source material.
Pliny the younger; well respected and honest gave us accounts of 1st/2nd C christians and he was from a secular background.
Lucian also a non-christian gives an account of christian morality and even seems to look upon them as mis-guided, so possibly an early secularist?
Finally, and controversially, Thallus` account of the darkness and earthquake which is very similar to Luke`s account of the darkness and Matthew`s earthquake.
Yes all these accounts are liable to be called into question, as does the evidence for other historical figures, but does it not also point towards the mere possibility that he did exist?
Secular evidence? I think you misunderstood. This is exactly the opposite of evidence, it is the suggestion that there is NO evidence. Rather than presenting evidence you argue with the lack of evidence and claim it is 'secular evidence'. You tell me what I presented evidence for and then we can discuss what ideology it comes from.
"Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:
'Nero fastened the guilt ... on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of ... Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome....'
What can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus."
It's fascinating that somebody can construe so much from a couple of lines. This website tells me that they can confirm 'much' of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus in a single sentence written by one Tacitus. So, very little apparently. This was written close to three centuries after Jesus was supposedly executed, so Tacitus could metaphorically be me writing about what you tell me about Jesus, it doesn't back up the story just because he heard it first. I'd do another one but there's little point.
That doesn't refer to Jesus, and not all Jews are Talmudists.
LOL!
Everything is temporary RodgerMill, the idea of eternity is a figment of man's imagination. Even the sun will one day explode, leaving a cold, lifeless system. If you have taken solace from relishing in eternity then your life hasn't been wasted, it has been lived to the best of your ability.
1 trillion years from ow scientists theorize that the sun will explode, they also once theorised that if a human went faster than 30 mph they would die.
So I guess that if any mistake is ever made, then everything subsequent to it is in error as well.
I smell bullshit. The statement is inconsistent with Newtonian mechanics, which seems to imply it must have been authored before 1690. Almost no scientific works from before this time exist. Additionally, when diving human being often travel faster than that. So:
Please tell us the name of this "theory" and if possible the name of the "scientist" who authored it.
"if a human went faster than 30 mph they would die"
It's Victorian. I have a vague recollection that claim was made after the invention of the railway locomotive. Somebody (possibly a horse-and-carriage dealer) suggested that the pressure of air rushing past at that dizzying speed would prevent people from breathing.
@ All theists that believe in heaven.
The Idea of heaven as I am to understand implies.
1. An eternity of bliss.
2. Reunion with deceased loved ones.
3. an Eternity with God
4. An eternity Serving/Worshipping God
5. A Garden like Eden/Elysium.
1. - An eternity of Bliss - My Idea of Bliss differs wildly from that of others. I prefer to live my life the way that is characteristically uniquely mine and yet culturally Indian along with my own age and gender identity. Two people from similar environments have extremely different views of bliss. Infant siblings do not agree on what they like nor do identical twins. Loved ones rarely agree on anything (exaggeration). Which Implies that I cannot share my bliss with anyone as it would be unique and so I would spend an eternity of bliss ALONE. Being alone would make me lonely and so this scenario is not possible.
2. Reunion with deceased loved ones.- Not everyone I love is good or pious and not everyone I dislike is evil. There are plenty of either. So many deserve heaven and my scorn and so many my affection but hell. If someone I love is deserving of hell and I (If I were a theist) were in heaven I would not be with my loved one and so this scenario is not possible.
3. An Eternity with God. - This is the stupidest one. apparently your omnipresent father is not around us enough right now but we must stick around him once we have kicked the bucket.
4. An eternity Serving/Worshipping God - So we are slaves that desire not our own existence but squander an eternity bowing, worshipping God. SO in that eternity our everlasting existence our family and friend are subject to his whim and fancy and we must keep worshipping like a drone.
5. A Garden like Eden/Elysium. - I prefer the comforts modern technology has brought us and I can stand a Garden long enough for an evening stroll. living in one without modern amenities or even a toilet would be very difficult and not at all a happy existence.
God said it, I believe it and that's that? Is that kind of like your mantra?
It never occurs to you that your god may be foisted upon you from the creativity of human imagination? I know it does because you allude to that existing doubt as evidenced in your post when you wrote, and I quote: "If heaven doesn't exist then I've wasted my life..."
You, like so many other fake believers, take a stance that simply covers your ass by outwardly promoting the theist side of the argument just in case it's true. Just in case, I'd better believe. You outed yourself as a doubter, minimally, and are probably oblivious of the admission in your own post.
I'm not sure what your post is actually attempting to defend, quite honestly, but I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest you have no idea what you're talking about. You probably have no idea of the general content of the bible, know sparsely less about the biblical story and cannot relate on any intellectual level knowledge of the redaction of the bible itself throughout the ages. Moreover, the archeological evidence upholds the bible as pure myth-making - cast of characters, events, miracles, prophecies and all it portends as truth - showing it to be pure superstitious gibberish.
Lastly, I highly doubt your sincerity regarding your claim on any belief. And, courage to stand up for yourself with the strength of evidence your own theologians lack, and are turning tail and running from? That would probably be a slice and dice, two minute rebuttal. If courage is something you think you have, read this with as much objectivity as you have available. It isn't an easy read for theists but it is taken from archeological records and not fabricated to unfairly attack theists. Read it all if you think yourself brave enough to allow a critique of your belief system (and meme complex) you would not otherwise seek.
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
Other links -
http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_controversy
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god-toc.htm
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