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To clarify my proposition: Everything that exists in time has a start in time. Things that exist timelessly do not need a start in time.
Something existed timelessly before the Big Bang and our universe was created in that timeless realm. So God has a start in space but not in time.
Please let us know how you are able to demonstrate that.
Copy of the argument I posted earlier:
1. Something can’t come from nothing
2. So base reality must have always existed
3. If base reality is permanent it must be timeless (to avoid an actual infinity of time)
4. Also something without a start cannot exist so time must have a start
5. God created Time within this permanent, timeless, base reality
6. So time must be real, permanent and finite
So God has a start in space but not time...
Plenty of claims, zero evidence. What's more we've heard this vapid nonsense before.
Quite possibly the best reply I have seen on the site.
Well done sir.
Why do you assume that god is timeless and not the universe?
Base reality and God are timeless. Our universe is contained within that timeless base reality. So in a sense you could sat the universe is timeless via containment, but its obviously not really timeless as it includes time and we experience time. Repeating my argument from earlier, hopefully you can see where I think God fits in:
1. Something can’t come from nothing
2. So base reality must have always existed
3. If base reality is permanent it must be timeless (to avoid an actual infinity of time)
4. Also something without a start cannot exist so time must have a start
5. God created Time within this permanent, timeless, base reality
You've done it again:
God has always existed timelessly. Timeless things do not need a start in time.
You have a contradiction:
"...something without a start cannot exist ..."
V.S.
"God has always existed..."
Special pleading fallacy, I missed that one. I can only apologise, in my defence I have been under a lot of pressure at work.
Claims = 2.
Evidence = 0.
Ho hum...
" Something can’t come from nothing"
What did God come from?
Your core error is in not realising the universe can always have existed, just because it had a point of origin explained in the scientific theory of the big bang, doesn't mean it didn't exist before that in a different form.
I have to laugh at theists who claim infinite regress is impossible, then claim their deity has always existed, then claim the universe can't have always existed, then claim their deity never changes, then claim the new testament replaced the old, then...well you get the idea.
If god is permanent and timeless how was he killed by crucifixion? In order to magic himself back from the dead he would have to die, no?
God did not come from anywhere. God is timeless and permanent. God just IS.
I know the universe has always existed. To repeat the argument again:
1. Something can’t come from nothing
2. So base reality (and God) must have always existed
3. If base reality is permanent it must be timeless (to avoid an actual infinity of time)
4. Also something without a start cannot exist so time must have a start
5. God created Time within this permanent, timeless, base reality
6. So time must be real, permanent and finite
I'm not a theist, Im a deist. That is I believe the way to understand God is through science and logic.
Dan >>>God) must have always existed<<<
Dan >>>something without a start cannot exist<<<
Even for a deist you seem confused.
----------------------------------------------
Dan "To repeat the argument again:
1. Something can’t come from nothing"
To repeat my objection, evidence that claim please.
---------------------------------------------------------
Dan "I believe the way to understand God is through science and logic."
I believe you're wrong.
God has a start but only a spacial start; he is timeless so has no temporal start. Timeless things don't need temporal starts.
Something can’t come from nothing: Nothing is defined to be no dimensions, no matter/energy. Then its clear nothing can come from that. It is a well established principle:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_comes_from_nothing
So something most have alway existed, etc...
Dan >>>God) must have always existed
Dan >>>God has a start
Fnarr...
--------------------------------------------------------
Dan "Something can’t come from nothing: "
So you KEEP saying, evidence it please.
------------------------------------------------------
Dan " It is a well established principle"
No it's not, but please evidence that claim as well.
--------------------------------------------------
"So something most have alway existed, etc..."
Sigh, evidence please...it seems evidence is as anathema to deists as it is to theists.
God has a spacial start point but no temporal start point; he's timeless and permanent.
If I define nothing as no dimensions, no matter, no energy, no quantum fluctuations, then how on earth could you get anything from it? The only way to do so is magic, like the way the magician pulls a rabbit from a hat.
You need to provide evidence for the counter position: 'can get something from nothing' - it is you, after all, who is making the outrageous claim.
It is not possible for something to be created from nothing in an isolated system. But you have not made it clear what kind of system you believe "God" to exist in.
"You need to provide evidence for the counter position: can get something from nothing"
No I don't, since I never claimed it, you did. You have claimed something can't come from nothing but can't remotely evidence it. You then contradicted yourself and implied your deity had always existed thus had come from nothing.
You've evidenced neither position, and you clearly never will.
The funniest part was nothing can exist without a start but your deity did and didn't have a start.
Unadulterated gibberish from start to finish.
Maybe you should consider reworking your argument:
V.S.:
Sorry, I'm not being clear, what I mean is:
- Base reality has always existed and is timeless.
- The universe was created within this timeless base reality.
- Base reality reality has permanent existence outside time so the universe inherits permanent existence outside time
Creation is a change, you can't have change without time. This hand-waving of yours is self contradictory in so many ways.
Change is separate from time; photons are timeless yet there position and wavelengths change.
@ Dan OMG..photons are god....my eyes are opened...
Same crap over and over and over.....
ex·ist: Have objective reality.
@Cogniostic
It is unfortunate we must revisit this again, as no degree or frequency of personal insult or pejorative remark regarding Dan's observations will suffice to make the logic of his premise diminish. We would do better to discuss the topic rationally, or cease to do so, rather than restoring to such poor antics, as mutual respect is far more constructive in such discussions.
@ Freeslave: What logic. Anyone can repeat unfounded assertions over and over and over and pretend as if they are saying something profound. There is no logic to his assertions. It is in fact, the same old crap being repeated over and over and over again without evidence. That is not an attack but observation.
Dan
How can you prove your god is real and timeless?
How do you know that your god created anything?
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