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It is one of the few reason why I would opt to take drastic actions like laws that immediately authorize rescue teams to overthrow parents authority and even subdue them until further detailed investigation is done.
When you are in a country, you must follow the country laws, any sign of resistance should be met with the appropriate force.
Though after the murder of his daughter, he should loose the right to live in a community(separated from his family) unless he is mentally rehabilitated or something.
I couldn't even make it through this suicide note written by Bill Zeller.
"Shining light on Baptist clergy sex abuse: reflections of a Southern Baptist survivor"
"He was a “brilliant” 27-year-old doctoral student, but he wasn’t able to escape the “darkness” that haunted him from having been molested and raped as a child."
http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.se/2011/01/bill-zellers-suicide-not...
"Mother Throws Infant Out of Fourth-Floor Window Because He Was Possessed By an “Evil Spirit”"
"she believed that Jinn, an evil spirit in the Muslim religion, took the baby because he was possessed."
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/08/11/new-york-mother-...
Yes, this is strange and sickening stuff. But you seem to be implying that all of theism is like that, and if so, it smacks of bigotry.
You seem to want to identify the worst of a group, then claim they are all like that. These are the types of methods used by Goebbels to stir up hate towards Jews.
What if someone made a list of atheists but only atheist criminals and other types of weirdos, and then implied all of atheism was like them?
Whatever method you use to make theism look bad, use it on yourselves too.
"What if someone made a list of atheists but only atheist criminals and other types of weirdos, and then implied all of atheism was like them?"
The list would be far shorter and percentile much smaller.
"The list would be far shorter and percentile much shorter".
Do you have a reference for that? Just making it up?
@Apollo
"But you seem to be implying that all of theism is like that, and if so, it smacks of bigotry."
Where did I say that? If you think about it, that is your own interpretation.
The point is that an enormous amount of horrific and tragic events take place because of Theism. And many Theists, who themselves are decent people, seem to have no idea whatsoever about this. Many Atheists also seem unaware about the large number of atrocities.
That is why I'm listing this.
If you find an steady stream of horrors that are done in the name of, or because of, or justified by, "lacking belief in a god", go right ahead.
The Pragmatic,
Who said you said it? "you seem to be implying...." was my phrase.
Why don't you balance it? For example, the great atheist Stalin is claimed to have murdered 20 million of his own people. The Nazi regime had no commitment to theism and set out to exterminate Jews, and was apparently prepared to persecute Catholics when politically expedient. The leaders of Communist China were atheists and their abuses of power were, and are numerous. America is considered one of the greatest nations with a commitment to freedom, and guess what, founded by theists.
You are one sided. No balance. You sound like a judgmental fundamentalist Christian, only with atheist content.
@Apollo
It's interesting how you often give a very agitated and impolite, almost offensive impression. And in your reply to CyberLN, you immediately respond with "Do you have a reference for that? Just making it up?"
Yet, you do not seem to care about your own assumptions, like "The Nazi regime had no commitment to theism".
Where on Earth did you find this information?
I take it as a good sign that you do get offended by this topic. The intention is to show Theists, not just Atheists, the all to common consequences of Theism. I also take it as a bad sign, because you seem to be very uninformed and naive on this subject.
"Why don't you balance it?"
This subject is regarding the bad consequences of Theism and I have focused on current events, mostly news.
Atheism is "Not being a Theist". Atheism is "lack of a belief in god or gods". There is nothing even remotely like what you are suggesting to "balance it". You can open up any major newspaper and quickley deduce that for yourself.
For example:
- When did you last hear about a man raping a child, trying to justify it with his "lack of faith in god"?
- When did you last hear about a mother throwing her baby out the fourth floor window because she didn't believe in demons and evil spirits?
- When did you last hear about a secular justice system force an 11 year old girl who got pregnant after she was raped by her uncle, to give birth to that baby?
- When did you last hear about a man going berserk with a knife, trying to kill as many gay people in a pride parade as possible, in the honour of non-belief?
Please, have a look at this crap: http://imgur.com/a/VnYFq (NSFW). It's 31 pages of vile sickening insanity, purely concocted to scare kids into submission. This, as well as other things I and others have posted here, is the the dark side of theism.
The argument that Hitler, Stalin and some others have committed atrocities in the name of Atheism is naive and uninformed. I'm writing a separate thread about that subject, as it's a bit to extensive to write about in this thread. It will be posted soon. I'll add a link directly to it here.
EDIT:
Adding link to http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-atrocities-fal...
Pragmatic,
I'm sorry you take offense. You seem to be a sensitive fellow.
You are assuming theism is the cause of such atrocities. Mental cases will offer all kinds of rationalizations for their crimes. It doesn't mean theism caused their crimes. I acknowledged there are theists who commit disgusting crimes, but I deny that theism caused it.
I don't buy the definition that atheism is not being a theist, because that would also include agnostics who are not atheists. Atheists don't believe in God, which is their prerogative. Doesn't bother me.
Your list of atrocities by theists implies that theism caused the atrocities, and there is a much better alternative to theism, which is atheism as if atheists are automatically wonderful in every way.
A look at this crap: I was raised a fundamentalist Christian, and I have seen all that crap probably before you were born. I find fundamentalist Christianity to be ridiculous at best.
Stalin and many other communist leaders were atheist, and that didn't stop them from committing atrocities as bad or worse than what you describe. So what does atheism have to offer as an alternative?
I read your link. It affirms my belief that atheism does not prevent an atheist from committing atrocities.
Atheism is a stance on the question of belief in a god, and it is a stance that requires faith. Atheism is one of your beliefs that relies on faith. Most atheists are in denial of their faith in their assumptions.
Why don't you balance it? Well at least you acknowledge that some atheists have committed major atrocities, which necessarily implies that atheism doesn't automatically prevent atrocities.
You claim atheism is not religious or political. I don't buy that. Atheism is a faith. And atheists do have political views. but assuming for the moment that you are correct, if atheism is not a faith and not political, what does it have to offer?
"I don't buy the definition that atheism is not being a theist, because that would also include agnostics who are not atheists. Atheists don't believe in God, which is their prerogative. Doesn't bother me."
I know that i am most likely wasting my time, but just to give you a chance, here is some basic definition.
Agnostic = do not know
Theist = belief in the theistic god
Atheist = lack of belief in the theistic god
You can believe something but not claim to know for sure = Agnostic Theist
You can lack belief in something but not claim to know for sure = Agnostic Atheist
anti-theist= against the belief in the theistic god
(the against is on the belief, basically it is claiming that the belief does more harm to the world then good)
Pragmatic made this topic to illustrate the harm theism brings with it.
"You are assuming theism is the cause of such atrocities."
He is showing the effects of theism(not all) he said nothing about the cause.
The cause comes from the effects of a reigion, religion has no intent but can seriously do mental damage if one has too much exposure, the person creating/changing a religion has the intent.(which is always the case)
Eg church, state.
Those institutions create religions so they could control the people.( it always happened like that in history)
Why do you think Christianity is the exception?
So yes the cause is the religion but not on purpose, it is just the effect of multiple intentions done by the creators of the particular religion. Indoctrination of children is one such example, it was introduced in Christianity later in history, it wasn't there before.
I am an agnostic atheist.
most atheists are agnostic atheists.
most theists are agnostic theists
BUT I am also an anti-theist, humanist, naturalist, etc....
"It affirms my belief that atheism does not prevent an atheist from committing atrocities."
It should not be your belief, but an understanding of a fact.
The Atheist is just the position on one claim, the theistic claim. It says nothing about a person.
Maybe you are mixing the other claims that come with the package of being a theist.
I am sorry to break it to you but, not all positions are of equal weight.
The theistic position comes with a lot of weight and restrictions(rules) on your freedom which are either useless or outright evil.
(eg whoever works on Sunday should be put to death or love your enemy, give the other cheek, etc..)
Regardless if the atheist agree/disagree with those rules, it makes no difference, since he lacks belief in the theistic god which supposedly made the rules.
An anti-theist on the other hand sees those "rules" which he thinks are harmful to humanity and actually does something about it.
"Atheism is a faith"
Faith is when you do not wish to use your brain about a position but opt to just believe the claim.
(Faith is an other word for brainless activity.)
Atheism makes no claim, thus it can never be a faith.
If I claim that I am smarter then you,
You can either believe me on faith on lack belief in my claim.
You do not use faith to lack belief in something.
The Gnostic atheist is the one who makes a claim which is because he not only lacks belief but CLAIMS to know for sure that his position is the correct one(in this case the lack of belief position)
So Gnostic , Agnostic, Atheist, Theist are 4 different positions you seem to mix up.
"what does it have to offer?"
Nothing, atheism has very little weight, you were born atheist before you were brainwashed into a religion.
A-Theism = Not Theism, A- comes from Greek , means NOT
Atheism is a state of being (not something), the neutral position, while theism is an extreme position you have to be introduced to by some very special means.
They call it indoctrination.
Thanks for writing this Jeff, so I didn't have to... :)
welcome(missed it)
Jeff Vella Leone,
Thank you for the definitions. that helps to see where you are coming from. I suspect that not all atheists would agree on your definitions however. Your definition of atheist is partly true, Some atheists take the position God does not exist, which is different from lacking belief.
When you talk about causes and effects, you are mixed up. The cause comes from the effects? Usually it is the other way around.
If Pragmatic is showing the effects of theism, then theism is the cause of such effects, no?
"Atheism is a faith"
Faith is when you do not wish to use your brain about a position but opt to just believe the claim.
(Faith is the an other word for brainless activity.)
In one of Stephen Hawking's books he outlines his perspective on the evolution of the universe from the big bang onward. At one point in the book he acknowledges he can not prove his perspective and accepts it ultimately on faith. He actually uses the word faith. He is an Atheist who is a deep thinker, and one I admire. You have a long way to go before you match him.
"Atheism makes no claim, thus it can never be a faith."
You are in denial. Atheists have a perspective that, like Stephen Hawking, they can't prove. Yet they believe in their perspective anyway. This website portrays a Atheist perspectives that are unprovable. No matter how you slice and dice it, that's a faith.
"you were born atheist "
Prove it. Nobody was born an atheist or a theist. People are socialized into atheism or theism, or some other perspective. Your claim "you were born atheist " is part of your world view that you have faith in.
definitions revisited:
Theist: I believe god exists.
Atheist: I believe god does not exist.
Agnostic: I believe I don't know, so I suspend judgment on the existence of god.
All three are beliefs. Atheism defined as a lack of belief in god is a weasel definition lacking in clarity as it also includes Agnostic.
Jeff, thanks for your input.
Apollo - "You are in denial. Atheists have a perspective that, like Stephen Hawking, they can't prove. Yet they believe in their perspective anyway. This website portrays a Atheist perspectives that are unprovable. No matter how you slice and dice it, that's a faith."
Notice that he has defined the word "faith" so broadly that everything fits into it, making the word meaningless.
"Some atheists take the position God does not exist, which is different from lacking belief."
Those atheists are called Gnostic atheists and they are the extremists of the atheists which are considered by atheists as outright insane.
You are dishonestly trying to label most atheists under one cap, the Gnostic atheists.
If we do the same, then most theists are suicidal since the suicide bombing community is exclusively theistic.
You should first understand the position you are attacking and avoid putting everyone under the same hat.
All Gnostic people (atheist/theist) are considered insane and until we manage to find a way to close them in some asylum they should be ignored.
They are claiming to be omniscient and they know everything there is to know about what exists.
It is a very arrogant/stupid/insane position that even Stephen Hawking holds.
In my eyes Stephen Hawking is an idiot, so any argument of authority you bring from Stephen Hawking means nothing to me.
It is like saying, "my claim is true because a mentally disabled person says so."
"This website portrays a Atheist perspectives that are unprovable. No matter how you slice and dice it, that's a faith."
What does "unprovable" has to do with lack of belief.
I do not need to prove anything to not believe a claim.
The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.(Gnostic makes a claim, atheist makes none)
So that is not faith, you are the one who is proposing this claim that one needs faith to lack belief, so please provide some evidence for this claim.
"you were born atheist "
Prove it.
Nothing more easy:
Atheist means Not-Theist
Before you were introduced to Theism you were a Not-Theist person.
You seem to have missed the part where I told you that Atheism is a state of being(not something)
If someone never heard of a theistic religion before he is automatically an Atheist because he lacks belief in it.
You do not need to be "socialized into atheism" as you claim, but you need to be "socialized into" Theism.
Are you socialized into lacking belief in the flying spaghetti monster? Do you find preachers saying to not believe in it?
No, it just comes natural since it is basic common sens.
Theism is a claim against basic common sens, it is claiming the supernatural that cannot be shown.
It is promoting the idea of a father that was never there that somehow loves you in some sick distorted way.
You indeed must be "socialized into Theism" to believe this nonsense on faith and ignore basic common sens.
Atheism is just the embracing of your basic common sens faculties regardless of society they somehow prevail anyway because you are born atheist, you are born using your brain to do things.
Theism promotes the halt of your brain faculties when it comes to religion and they call it Faith.
"Atheist: I believe god does not exist."
You wish that atheist means that to support your biased claims , IT DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE.
The closest thing to that is Gnostic Atheist which means:
I claim to know for sure that my lack of belief in the theistic god is the truth. Thus I am correct in my position for sure.
"Your claim "All three are beliefs. " is part of your world view that you have faith in."
EDIT:
What arrogance you are showing us.
You came here on an atheist forum and dictated to us our position, the position YOU BELIEVE we hold.
Everyone here told you the correct position and you are the one in denial.
How do you even expect to convince anybody of your claims when you yourself failed to do some basic research on the proper definitions.
Those definitions are not disputed, they are never even addressed in formal debates.
So stop this nonsense and accept the truth.
An atheist is just the lack of belief in the existence of the theistic god claim.
Apart from that watch this about the burden of proof:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KayBys8gaJY
Also this on Lack of belief:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNDZb0KtJDk
"Yes, this is strange and sickening stuff. But you seem to be implying that all of theism is like that, and if so, it smacks of bigotry."
I, actually, would imply that the vast majority of religions(theism) ARE like that. Now, before you underwear gets tied up in knots, realize that I said theism and not theists. You see, what a religion says is not always the same as what the adherents choose to practice. In the case of Abrahamic faiths, they do NOT practice much of what it teaches, merely practice the good and nice parts and hand-wave away all the bigoted and entirely immoral commandments and proclamations. So, no, not all theists. But, yes, most theism. MOST of the theistic religions on the planet today teach some sort of hateful, bigoted, rubbish somewhere in their holy text.
"You seem to want to identify the worst of a group, then claim they are all like that. These are the types of methods used by Goebbels to stir up hate towards Jews."
Religion isn't a group, it is an industry and an ideology. You can criticize a religion for what it teaches, without criticizing the people that don't follow that teaching.
"What if someone made a list of atheists but only atheist criminals and other types of weirdos, and then implied all of atheism was like them?"
Then they would be committing a false equivocation. Atheism has no teachings or holy texts, no pronouncements or commandments, so does not force people to believe in any particular way about any particular issue beyond the existence of god. That is the difference, and it is all the difference in the world.
"Whatever method you use to make theism look bad, use it on yourselves too."
Would if I could but I can't. I can't make theists "look bad". Good thing they are so obsessively intent on doing it themselves.
"Husband and wife 'use Bible as excuse to keep teenager as sex slave for five years'"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/husband-and-wife-use-bi...
Ten year old girl can't wait to die so she can be with god. Brainwashing doing it's worst...
"This is why I hate religion. One of my students wrote this. She's 10 years old."
http://imgur.com/idKeJH4
"Claiming the Quran’s support, the Islamic State codifies sex slavery"
“I said to him, ‘She’s just a little girl,’ ” the older woman recalled. “And he answered: ‘No. She’s not a little girl. She’s a slave. And she knows exactly how to have sex.’ ’’
“And having sex with her pleases God,” he said.
“He said that raping me is his prayer to God. I said to him, ‘What you’re doing to me is wrong, and it will not bring you closer to God.’ And he said, ‘No, it’s allowed. It’s halal,’ ” said the teenager, who escaped in April with the help of smugglers after being enslaved for nearly nine months.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/14/world/middleeast/isis-enshrines-a-theo...
"Pastor charged with sexually abusing another boy after church members rallied to his defense"
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/08/pastor-charged-with-sexually-abusing-ano...
Arkansas Rep. Justin Harris who adopted girls and then "rehomed" them to Eric Francis, who raped the six year-old, is still in the Arkansas state legislature. And... wait for it...
"A group called the Family Council Action Committee is presenting Harris with its first Power of Courage Award"
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2015/08/lawmaker-who-gave-away-adopte...
"the two girls suffered abusive treatment at the hands of Harris and his wife for the short time the girls were in their home. Why? According to Justin and his wife it was because one of the girls was demon-possessed."
"11-year old girl in Paraguay who was allegedly raped by her stepfather has given birth to a baby girl after being denied an abortion."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-33919483
"ISIS Held Kayla Mueller, U.S. Aid Worker, as Sex Slave Before Fatal Airstrike"
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/15/world/middleeast/isis-held-us-aid-work...
"Hostage’s family say they were told by US officials that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi took Mueller as his ‘wife’ and sexually abused her repeatedly"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/14/islamic-state-leader-raped-...
Documentary: Kidnapped for Christ
About teens enrolled against their will in "Caribe Vista", a boarding school for “wayward” teens.
http://jakethemoviewatcher.blogspot.se/2015/07/kidnapped-for-christ-2014...
"The dark side of Theism"
Hmm.... as if there was a bright side?
You should rename the topic title as:
"The search for the bright side of theism."
or something along these lines.
Well, the point of the subject is simply to show those who don't know or deny the really bad parts, how everyday is filled with horrific examples.
" show those who don't know or deny the really bad parts, how everyday is filled with horrific examples"
Yea , that is why it would attract their attention even more if you such things lol.
wanna see them jump in with their monopoly on charity lol
"Morgan Freeman's step-granddaughter E'Dena Hines stabbed to death on street in New York"
"Brydon Tarafa told The Daily Mail he heard a man yelling, “Jesus Christ is born”, followed by a woman screaming while he was inside his apartment."
"George Hudacko, another witness, told The New York Daily News he heard someone screaming: “Get out, devils! I cast you out, devils! In the name of Jesus Christ, I cast you out!”"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/morgan-freeman-granddaughter-st...
Delusion obviously has no boundaries...
"Duggars Pitch New Reality Show Counseling Sex Abuse Victims"
"Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar are pitching a new reality show where they would counsel young victims of sexual abuse."
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2015/08/duggars-...
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