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Yes, but those 2 sentences are enough for me to give it everything I've got.
"Yes, but those 2 sentences are enough for me to give it everything I've got."
Because you are biased in favour of the belief, your certainty is the very definition of closed minded. You don't just believe it, you "know" it is true; and all without a shred of objective evidence. If you find something as irrational as Pascal's wager compelling that says a great deal to me, either you don't understand why it is flawed, which explains a great deal (no offence), or you don't care that is it is flawed, which again says it all really.
Pascal's wager implies we having nothing to lose in believing in a deity, but even a cursory examination of this claim see it is deeply flawed.
Firstly and the most obvious flaw is that this wager doesn't evidence a deity at all, it merely posits we have less to lose in believing it does. Secondly the idea an omniscient deity could be fooled by anyone pretending to believe in this way is absurd. Thirdly the wages implies it is possible to force ourselves to believe something we believe to be untrue.
This all adds up to thinking it is preferable to live a lie, and that a deity could be fooled by it. What's more that a deity would reward such dishonesty. I'd be more convinced by arguments that claimed a deity exists and created everything to weed out the gullible humans who will believe in it without any tangible objective evidence.
@Sheldon
I've said many times that I don't know. That I live in the possibilities. That from my want to know The Creator has produced results. And that I believe my experiences. And that it wasn't God doing what I wanted. But rather me getting in line with His order. It still could be a delusion. But I've seen worse ones lol.
Another string of unevidenced claims, you're not listening GH. The fact you believe it doesn't validate that belief at all. There are only two possibilities, either a deity exists or it does not, and you will need to demonstrate objective evidence that a deity is possible, in order for your claim to be "living in the possibilities" to make any sense at all. Unless you simply meant your going to blindly believe a deity is possible, in which case why are you telling me this? i really don't care what people choose to believe in blindly without proper evidence.
"It still could be a delusion."
Then why believe it?
@Sheldon
"Then why believe it?"
David killens mentioned that y'all talked endlessly about nothing. Such is my case, I have fun with the experience. I've learned and experienced so much from this persuit of The Creator. That it's beyond me to deny it. Therefore it's like my eyes have been opened and it would be massive work to shut them again, which would really feel like a delusion. I'm only saying that it might be a delusion because if God doesn't exist? Then it is the single most wide spread delusion of all time. But,,, it also might turn out to be true.... It's quite exciting. like I've said before if creation is not enough evidence for you, then death surely will be. I simply believe because seriously. I don't know what else to do, and why not test everything I've been given to work with. It would be a shame to stay the same for too long. shoot, the way my life has been. I don't think it's even possible for me to do that lol. Also, it just seems like trying to say there is no Creator is far to much work that yeilds literally no reward. If God doesn't exist then it doesn't freakin matter. But if The Creator exists, then not only does it matter a whole lot and the benefits are the highest you can get, but there is an order to follow to gain the experience. The Creator wouldn't make it complicated or hard. We do. Because ultimately we will come up with any and everything to get away from Him. Because.... We don't want a Creator.
That's where I started my journey Sheldon. I asked myself why. Why do I not want there to be a Creator? The answer was that I wanted to do what I want with no judgement or care. I wanted to be my own god. That's when I started looking at the proverbial walls I had up and started to ask why do I have these blocks up? The Creator might just actually exist. and if that's true? Then that kind of power will be worth the persuit. so I got out of the way and let God in. My life has never been the same and I don't have to try, care, or do anything. I just show up, be available, help others, and put a smile on everyone's face that I see. And the author of coincidence, and the mind behind karma, takes care of the rest. Even when things get hard sometimes I have peace of mind and rest. the majority of the world shares in this. the real believers. The people who don't worship religion. but seek God's face. So that would be quite a delusion lol.
Ok now, let's flip it. What if God does indeed turn out to be the reality? What would that make athiesm? Saying God doesn't exist is "hitchens razor". So the possibility that the Creator is real will always be there. If it ends up being true? Then would that make athiesm a delusion, or something else?
(Edit to add) coincidence and karma don't exist without The Creator.
Great hope, all you spout is "what if?" Any post over three sentences launches into proselytizing and pure speculation about "what if".
Please step back, read what you say. You are a broken record.
I do not desire you to leave, but there is a stalemate. Every time you face questions, the response is always the same. You can not offer any proof, it is your faith that carries the day for you. And if it is just faith, then you are not contributing to the conversation.
We do want to discuss why you have your beliefs, but you need to break out of your perpetual loop and say something new. Something other than a long-winded version of "I have faith and no other explanation".
And geez dude, if I was a betting man I would easily bet that within the next 24 hours you would once again launch into a long session of proselytizing.
@ David Killens
When I start writing, I do intend to keep it minimal. But then sometimes it just spews out and then *bam* before I know it. There's half of a book lol. Y'all are not the only ones to think I should have a pulpit lol. I've never heard of Pascal's Wager before this. So I'll just cover the bases of what might be overlooked. Sure, there is a ton of "gods" "thou shalt not have any other gods before me". I think even the Bible calls Satan a god. That's why as an extremist I went to the nut. I figured that if The Creator and Giver of Life exist? It should be able to follow through with opening my eyes and ears to it. And I should be able to have the discernment to tell. So I took it up. Being an extremest, I did it full blast wholeheartedly. The Creator showed up and did more than I could have ever of expected. Most of it was uncomfortable at first, but growth usually is a uneasy process. Still continues to this day. Because The Creator is not the thing that needs to grow. I do.
Love you much my man. Thank you.
And I wish you a very merry Christmas, that you enjoy this holiday season with your loved ones and bask in happiness and good cheer.
@Sheldon
You've already said no one will ever have objective evidence. So there is nothing to debate. You sir, are asking for the unicorn. We don't command The Creator. And I'm sure that if The Creator really did create all of this and give us life. (It's going to have it's reasons for doing it like this.) I've broken down some of those. That's why, if The Creator exists. then everything I've said makes perfect sense and it's trying to call your name through what I write. That's why I say just take a breath, just sit back and breathe for a second and think " what if" The Creator is real? How would it work? Could I be missing something? Is it really as simple as GH is hinting at? I'm really not doing this for me and I've given up far too much time, that I don't have, to do so. But who am I to deny inspiration, alongside it's inconveniences? Don't be afraid to answer the door when you feel it Sheldon. I promise, I won't tell anyone. Imagine if I didn't care and never took the time to reach out to you? Lol as I wrote that, I can see you smiling. *Hopeful chuckles*
Merry Christmas bro.
@GH
I highly doubt that. I know I am not going to find god, because I looked, I really looked, and all I found was more compelling evidence that god is a human created idea.
I think just about everyone that asks that question wants to know. I think part of the problem is, some people want an answer so badly they will accept any answer, even a completely unevidenced one.
No it won't. It literally is not the tell all, it is the opposite of tell all. When you die you can tell no one of your experience, and ofcourse all science points out you will be incapable of experiencing anything once you die and die beyond the point of any possible recovery, let alone communicate it.
Except if there is no creator you will never find out that here was none. Because any "proof" is in the afterlife, and if there is no god and no afterlife you will never find out at all, you will just die.
I literally linked you above the link to pascal's wager and directed you to the criticism side. Did you not read it? Here is just one of the completely concept breaking rebuttals to Pascal's wager: Which god? There is literally thousands of highly popular gods, so it is no longer 50/50 coin toss, it is a 1 in thousands of possibilities (and that is just popular god notions, there could be an infinite number of god possibilities.) This is not 50/50 odds you are taking a bet on, but a one in many thousands shot.
It is? How do you know that? I am not even in my 40's yet, there is over 31 million seconds in a year. I am currently healthy and have access to some of the best healthcare in the world, I suspect I have well over 1 billion seconds left. That does not seem like time is short for me.
The strong majority is still theistic not atheist, can not describe us as a hive mind or a mob. In fact outside of atheist agreeing they do not believe in god concepts there is little we all do agree on. We have atheist people that represent every political spectrum, every age group, ever race and screed. Heck some of us even disagree on the exact definition of atheist and what it means.
If there is anything I can understand or agree with about theist is hope. Concepts of god, however flawed they may be, do provide a lot of hope and direction for people that need it. I get why people hang onto their religion concepts so tightly better and better. Lots of people NEED their religious idea, separating them from religion can be akin to removing all hope for some people, some people cannot handle pondering the infinite and purpose of life without the comfort of "god" answers. I am even mostly fine with this hope. It just that organized religion is frequently a con, and organized religion does not just stick to themselves and let other people be. They love to push or even force their unevidenced opinion on others. Religion indoctrination begins on helpless children as soon as they learn how to talk, completely defenseless to the religious cons as they lack critical thinking skills, and are usually learning it from their parents, something children at least at a young age are quite literally programmed to do accept the authority and greater knowledge a parent has over a 3 year old kid.
Tomorrow is a good day, just like the day after that, and the day after that. I do appreciate that here in the US most everyone gets christmas day off, so they can be with friends and family, everyone can gather, with nearly everyone freed from working for a day, all on the same day.
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▮ Please include @LogicFTW in responses directed to me. ▮
▮ Useful list on forum usage. A.R. Member since 2016. ▮
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@LogicFTW
Great reply. Thank you. Nyar said something that has intrigued me for the last several days.
"Great hope - At what point did you make the jump to full blown I know that God does not exist?
Nyar - Not all atheist have reached that point. And in my experience those who have are a tiny minority."
So that leads me to believe that some don't know completely that God \afterlife exists or not. Which leads me further to believe that there is a possibility that it might be real. And that tiny little possibility is enough for me. Because it just might be everything. So it's completely worth it... To me. That tiny possibility is the only thing I've been trying to get at since I've come here. If There Creator is the reality? Then we started with perfection and went backwards. So it would make sense that it would be tiny. Because if we live in backwards world. Everything will be a paradox.
And what about the tiny hope that any of the gods other than yours exist?
You already knew that atheism is a lack of belief in god. How you couldn't figure out the bold'ed sentence from that; instead of having to be told it is beyond me. It makes me think you aren't firing on all cylinders...
@Nyar
Lol I'm probably not. I have way too many things going on. Hence the "winging it"
@Great hope
"So that leads me to believe that some don't know completely that God \afterlife exists or not. Which leads me further to believe that there is a possibility that it might be real."
Do you understand how failed in logic that statement is? I will show how dumb that statement is by replacing just a few words.
So that leads me to believe that some don't know completely that The Flying Spaghetti Monster exists or not. Which leads me further to believe that there is a possibility that it might be real.
Great hope, I truly do not believe you are a moron. But your posts are beginning to get really, really, really stupid.
"It is far greater to live like there is a Creator and die to find out there isn't one."
It is better live as if today is your last day, and enjoy the company of your loved ones to the full. Recognize and enjoy the little and grand things in life. Savor each moment because the journey is far more important than the destination.
@David killens
Yes David, most people do that naturally. They've written like a thousand songs that have those exact lyrics lol. You can believe in The Creator and still do those things. Believe it or not.
It is absurd to claim you can live your life as if it's all there is, and believe it is a mere pointless stepping stone test for an eternal life to come in just a few decades. The whole bizarre crutch of a belief in an afterlife cheapens and demeans human life in the here and now, which as we have any evidence for. Making us little more than the play things of a capricious and cruelly indifferent, and even sadistic deity.
@ Sheldon
Bro, if you only knew my life. I've literally felt like I've lived 100 years already. Another one of those gift and curse type things.
"Bro, if you only knew my life."
I could say the same to you. I don't care how you feel about your delusion, you're basing it on an archaic superstition you can demonstrate zero evidence for. You're holding an empty bag "Bro"...enjoy it by all means, if you need that crutch, but I don't, and once again I'd ask you to desist from preaching at me, I stopped going to church many years ago the second I was old enough to decide for myself. If you want to preach go find a pulpit, and some sheeple who want to hear it, This is a debate forum, not a church sermon you're giving.
How you feel about the belief lends no validity to it.
@Great Hope
Yo, dude! Just wanted to tell you Merry Christmas real quick. Hope you have a great day with family and friends. Try not to over-stuff yourself like I have been doing. lol
@Tin-Man
Oh it's bound to happen *chubby chuckles*
Merry Christmas
@Great hope
"Yes David, most people do that naturally. They've written like a thousand songs that have those exact lyrics lol. You can believe in The Creator and still do those things. Believe it or not."
I disagree. Theists focus not on the journey, but the destination. And they live their lives inhibited by the fear that they must not step on the toes of what they worship.
I know, I was a theist for most of my life. I recall that one day I told an acquaintance "I can't wait to die so I can get away from this crappy world and enjoy heaven". That is a theme I hear often.
But once I threw off the chains of theism, my life has become much better, full of joy and love, devoid of fear.
"I have found the everything that an athiest is lacking."
I lost a toy Space 1999 space ship in 1973. Are you saying you've found it? As far as I'm aware it's the only thing I lack anyone else can find.
Or did you mean you have a vapid superstitious belief that allows you to adopt a pretentious attitude of self importance in a universe that neither knows nor cares you exist?
If the latter then yes you have a delusion I lack. If the former then I'd like my toy space ship back please. They're collectable now as well.
And joining the list, return me wife and twin daughters to me you sadistic bastard. Damned thieves. Religitards always stealing what ain't theirs so they can claim to have found everything non-believers are lacking.
rmfr
@ GH stop wasting our time with your sententious preaching:
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/blog/lee-m/pascals-wager-failing-every-po...
Only come back if you really cannot understand how silly your message is to us folk.
Ok, thank you
Merry Mithra lol
V.S.
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In my very unprofessional opinion; you're either trolling or you're mentally ill.
I can't offer a clinical diagnosis of course, but are those mutually exclusive? He could be mad and trolling. Though I suspect he's just convinced himself accepting belief is somehow open minded, when in fact his intransigence is the opposite.
As atheists we're often asked what it would take for us to believe. They never like my answer of course as it's always a demonstration of sufficient objective evidence.
Now what I wonder would it take for GH to doubt his belief and seek sufficient objective evidence first?
Nyarlathotep: "In my very unprofessional opinion; you're either trolling or you're mentally ill."
In my professional opinion, he is trolling and suffering from RSTD (Religious Stigmatic Traumatization Disorder).
RSTD, like PTSD, is a combination of several disorders: Inferiority Complex Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Schizophrenic Delusion Disorder, and Dissociative Delusional Disorder. Of course, anyone suffering from RSTD is automatically going to troll about how their disorder is superior to anyone else's disorder. Sometimes, those who suffer from RSTD also have the added magnifier of Megalomania.
rmfr
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