I was wondering if any of you guys and gals practice Buddhism? I do and I love it! Some folks do not understand the truth of Buddhism. Feel free to comment (I will not judge). Keep it minimal and positive
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Hi New.
I do not practice it, however, we are in agreement that it is commonly misunderstood.
There are bits and pieces if it that I like. That's true for me of many philosophies and even bits and pieces of some religions (sans the god parts).
Thomas Jefferson, an extremely private man about his personal life, when pressed about what religion he was, would sometimes say he was an Apiarian...that, like a bee, he went from flower to flower sucking the honey out of each.
This seems a valuable exercise. By learning about different religions and philosophies and about the adherents of them, we have an opportunity to gather some very beneficial information: how we want to behave, how we do not want to behave, how to guard against that which damages, how to embrace that which enhances, how to think, how to question, how to understand the world around us...so many things.
Buddhism, like anything else, can be taken to extremes, turning radical and dangerous. And like religions, there are many flavors of it. I find it just as difficult to say that practicing Buddhism is always wonderful as saying practicing Christianity is.
Off topic cyber i broke my freakin big toe today :( ive only got one foot so its doubly annoying.
The 4 Noble Truths alone are reason enough for me to ignore Buddhism.
[img]http://reluctant-messenger.com/images/noble200x314.gif[/img]
I don't see what's so objectionable about that...
That was one of the coolest 404 errors I have ever seen.
Just out of curiosity Elli, can you elaborate? What is it about the 4 truths that makes you feel gives you enough reason to ignore Buddhism? I find them to be respectable.
Suffering anxiety and and dissatisfaction exist,
there is always a reason for it,
it can be stopped
and there is a path to stopping or ending it.
Kind of a positive thing and many spiritual healer and psychologist have had much success applying these truths to clients. Some combine this the belief that accepting that your suffering is your problem and the first step to understanding your suffering is to own it so to speak. Once you achieve ownership and figure out how your suffering relates to you, you can identify what is your suffering which is often not what you think it is. Form there you find the root or reason for your problem and form a plan learn to get over it, accept, tend to it what ever you may have to do in the end in order to fix it or put a stop to it.
I will say, it may seem overly optimistic in some cases but I personally feel its better to remain optimistic than to be a pessimist. And being overly optimistic can have advantages over being a realist in some situations as well as things are not always what they seem.
Z, hoping you won't mind terribly if I stick my nose into your question to Ellie...
What you're suggesting only works if one has the resources to fix the suffering. Starvation can serve as an example. Pretty hard to fix if one doesn't have the resources necessary to gain food. Illness is another, without medical recourses an ill person is often just shit out of luck.
If the only other option is to accept that sort of lot in life, well, sure doesn't seem to me like that would improve the situation. If widely adopted by societies, I'd be worried that that sort of 'shit happens' acceptance would lead to less largesse to the have-nots from the haves.
hmmm, CyberLn hoping you won't mind terribly if I stick my nose into your reply to Z...
(thought it would be funny :)
"What you're suggesting only works if one has the resources to fix the suffering."
Not necessarily true.
Can you give a single example where not understanding your suffering is better then understanding it?
Starvation is not a good example, since understanding it may lead you to extend your life rather then making mistakes based on panic decisions.
Also one can solve his suffering problems by just dying.(in situations where dying is a better option)
Well suffering is a bad thing and in understanding it better we tend to have better solutions for it.
Having hope that there is a path out of suffering gives also motivation, which in most cases it is just a matter of how motivated you are.
We are a nosy lot, aren't we? :-)
Not sure I'm properly tracking what you mean by 'understanding your suffering'. Do you mean understanding why or how some suffering is going on?
Starvation is not a good example? Is starvation not to suffer?
Not sure I agree that death solves problems. It certainly means they do not personally exist any more since the dead person no longer exists, but it doesn't solve anything. All just semantics tho.
Having hope that there is a path out of suffering? Some folks can't even conceive that there is a path.
Motivation is grand, but one needs access to the resources in the first place in order to go get them. Let's talk shoes here...a child is motivated to have shoes who lives in a place where walking barefoot can cause pretty awful illnesses. This child has no resources to obtain shoes. It makes no difference at all how motivated the kid is...shoes are still out of reach.
"We are a nosy lot, aren't we? :-)"
Yes we are :P
"Not sure I'm properly tracking what you mean by 'understanding your suffering'"
I mean both the how and the why. + knowledge.
Why is it happening, your fault? Luck? etc... (learn to live with it and accept it)
How to cope with it? how it really works?
Knowledge of your suffering and of the ways of improving it, currently available.
Hope i was clear now.
Starvation is not a good example for your claim that "it only works if you have the resources"
You don't need the resources to kill yourself instead of suffer hunger. You can have an easy way out.
You don't need the resources to study yourself and extend your life as much as possible.
EG: you have just a loaf of bread, if you eat it at once you may last 3 days and die but if you distribute it a piece per day you might last a week.
So having the knowledge about your suffering can extend your life even if you are suffering by starvation. You can suffer less or more.
That is why I asked you that question which I am still waiting for an answer :P
"Not sure I agree that death solves problems."
Yea if you are burning alive and you are suffering, a quick death is a solution to a very slow and painful death.
"Motivation is grand, but one needs access to the resources in the first place in order to go get them."
Have you ever read a story where people thought they were dead and just kept fighting anyway, then by some luck they get saved?
"This child has no resources to obtain shoes. It makes no difference at all how motivated the kid is...shoes are still out of reach."
If he is motivated enough he can do something about it.
Here is an example where with enough motivation he finally realized that a possible shoe was right next to him.
If he had the right motivation he could have done it before.
http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/naked-and-afraid/videos/makeshift-sand...
Even ignoring the pain, there are people that can, not feel pain and suffering.(mental power)
Pain/suffering are just signals to the brain and there are people that don't have them.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/meet-toddler-feels-pain/story?id=20658484
I try to imagine being a five year old whose belly is distended from hunger, whose bones are fragile from malnutrition, who is completely without resources, who has multiple diseases, who knows nothing, absolutely nothing other than this. I am suffering. I don't even have the ability to understand that can death end this suffering because I have been taught that ending a life means an even worse eternity. I have no acceptable way out. I have no resources or ability to make things better. I have no education. I have no idea that life can be any different. I am suffering and the four truths of Buddhism just don't mean shit to me even if I knew about them. They do not help me in any way, shape, or form.
I have a loaf of bread. I eat it because I am starving. I am five years old. I do not have the capacity (because of my age and because of diminished cognitive capacity from malnutrition) to do the sort of computational analysis you suggest.
Motivation is also something that is taught. If you are five and have been told by the 'big people' that this is all there is, you believe them. So let me add this to the shoe example: You cannot be motivated to find yourself a pair of shoes if you do not know you can. So you suffer for lack of shoes...with no discernible way out.
And yes, I do know that pain is a signal to the brain from a nerve. I have lived with chronic pain 24/7/365 for longer than you have been alive. I've been fortunate to learn techniques to manage it without the use of meds. But I had access to the resources for that learning. Some folks choose not to take advantage of those available resources but some do not have access to them, let alone know the resources exist.
Knowing the 4 thruths does not mean you understand them, A 5 year old with all the conditions you mentioned just does not fit the minimum requirements that are needed to understand the theology.
"There is a path out of suffering."
It does not say that you can find it or not.
It just says that there is a path.
It is not a big claim, it is quite a modest one.
It is like claiming that there is a way to jump.
Of course if a person never learned to use his legs he won't be able to jump but that doesn't mean that there is no way to jump.
You are just misunderstanding the 4 truths.
"Some folks choose not to take advantage of those available resources but some do not have access to them, let alone know the resources exist."
Again it does not mean that there is no way to reduce them. It just means that that person is not knowledgeable enough or in a position to find that path in time.
That is why one needs to have more knowledge to attempt to be knowledgeable enough.
One might fail but that doesn't mean that there was no path but that one has failed to find it for some reason.
Let us take for example Cancer which there are very few available methods to cure some of them, but some are still incurable. We keep trying because we might be the first to discover a cure for it.
Having the determination to understand that a path exists and it is just a matter of time is the meaning behind those truths.
Being a survivor basically.(I know you like that phrase :P )
No I won't mind, not at all. your one of the people I enjoy talking with most on this site.
Sometimes and this in not going to sound great but it is true: Sometimes the best thing you can do is accept your predicament and work on living with it. For example incurable disease just because something is incurable does not mean we need to let it consume our lives.
I for example have problems I suffer with, there is as this date no known way to cure my problems which I don't feel like getting into the details of. But I used to suffer with it much worse than I do now. I not say go and be a Buddhist but I am saying there is a lot of good information to glean from thinking deeply about some of the things Buddhism puts forth. And what they call the four truths is one of those thing Buddism puts forth which could benefit a person to consider on a deeper level. I think the religion is, as stated already by others, misunderstood by many. I have accepted my predicament and come to terms with it. my life has vastly improved since I have done so. Of course there is still lots of room for improvement but I'm not so obsessed about it anymore my suffering, dissatisfaction and my outlook has been greatly shifted. I suffer far less now. I am also hopeful that in the future medical science will advance and my condition will improve further.
the 4 truths apply differently to different situations Hunger and starvatoin are world problems and should be approached as such. ON an individual level, as humans we suffer to see others suffer. There is plenty of food to go around but four major hurdles to solving world hunger are know how/education, war/violence, food for profit/capitalism applied to food , and transport/distance. However, science can make it so food does not have to travel so far and can be transported more efficiently. Food, is readily available in most US areas but as things are it many people don't understand how to obtain it in many ways. that said, enough food is wasted worldwide to feed the whole world.
A certain degree of acceptance can be a good thing, but but acceptance at least the way I see it, is an ever changing thing. I accept that i have been injured I accept that my injuries have led to more problems than I initially anticipated I accept that as of yet there is no way to fix my problems but accepting has helped me to find different ways to live my life. Also the day may come when tomorrow's reality will be different than today's I know thing are always changing there is a big difference between accepting and resignation. the four truths say there is a way to end suffering and while there may be many way to get around suffering or to cope with suffering today what it is saying is there is a way to make it cease. If you believe this you should never give up. If the way to make it stop does not exist yet you can today prepare for tomorrow.
In your example
Did not look over this before posting it. I just sort of spit it out and posted it: "In your example" was written and then I went somewhere else, came back and started typing again. "In your example" should not have been there. I am sure there are also a number of other errors in the post spelling ect. But I saw that one right away and knowing some of the hardship Cyber is going through, I did not want it to be misconstrued to mean something I did not intend it to.
Thanks for your post, Z. I wholeheartedly agree that some predicaments have no current solution and that acceptance of that is relieving. It is the difference between staying a victim or becoming a survivor. I'm the survivor of all sorts of shitty stuff because I refuse to be its victim.
I absolutely think that there is honey to be gathered from Buddhism.
My concern is that the message in those four truths will get misconstrued by folks...that there are things people suffer with that have no current solution...that it's not their fault for not finding one. Unearned guilt could result. Unearned guilt, for lack of a poetic way of saying it, utterly sucks.
Yea people can "misconstrued" practically anything, so your fear is justified.
Though I think that they misunderstand the meaning of those 4 claims, thus it does not mean that those 4 claims are wrong.
"that there are things people suffer with that have no current solution"
How does this relate to any of those 4?
http://reluctant-messenger.com/images/noble200x314.gif
I see no relation with "no current solution", it actually claims the opposite, that "There is a path out of suffering"(the last one).
Well, 'current' is relative, I suppose. A solution may not be discovered in time to do anything for that person...their lives remain one of suffering. As I said earlier, death is not a solution to suffering. Suffering exists in a person's life, it is the only place it can exist, it is personal. Death ends the life. It would only be a solution to suffering if existence of any sort extended beyond death. Only then can the relief from suffering be realized. It's a closed loop.
The four truths may fit some...they may not fit all. That's the problem with any philosophy / religion. One size does not fit all.
"It would only be a solution to suffering if existence of any sort extended beyond death."
We disagree, death is a solution to many things.
I would like to kill my boss to get his job for example, it would surly end my suffering. :)
It is relevant to this life, I would rather die quickly then die of a very painful death to avoid suffering.
painful death = suffering for an extended period of time(maybe tortured by some terrorists) then die.
quick death= no/short suffering and then die.
The difference between those 2 options is one has less suffering.
You can deny this but everybody else knows you are wrong.
death can reduce the amount of suffering you live in the world.
Thus according to your own words "Suffering exists in a person's life" then the amount of suffering reduced by death is relevant.
That's the problem with any philosophy / religion. One size does not fit all.
The 4 truths fit pretty much all I can imagine at the top of my head right now.
If you be so kind to give me an example where the 4 truths are wrong about something I am willing to be convinced otherwise.
That the four truths fit all you can imagine right now is great for you. I just don't really have any stake in trying to convincing you otherwise. Think what you will...
We disagree. That's okay. I doubt you're trying to legislate this stuff and probably aren't out to have me stoned for disagreeing with you so I 'spose we're all good.
BTW, killing your boss would likely increase your suffering, prison is just no fun at all. ;-)
haha
I just blame it on the Al Qaeda Muslims
It worked on the twin towers.
You also underestimate the please one can get from killing your boss.
here is what I mean to whack your boss:
(click on the 3 rd picture when it loads the video and listen to the boss)
Trust me you won't regret it :P
+ it wont get you to jail :P
http://www.whackyourboss.com/
remove the [/img] from the end of the link to see the picture :P
yea the error message was interesting more then the usual error message.
Very interesting conversation here :) I'm going to butt in (simply because everyone else used their noses) and add my two bits. First, I agree with the idea of the 4 truths (if they are properly understood, as in you understand a problem accept that it is real and do what you can to fix it if it is fixable or live with it as best you can if it is not...(killing your boss is a solution... but not the best one as it would lead to other more severe problems which means that you may want to explore other routes of dealing with that issue...) or end the suffering utterly which IS an option, though I don't believe it to be the best one by any means). Because we are not constrained to think in only one way, any doctrine's wisdom can be beneficial to us if we interpret it (do NOT get me wrong here, I don't mean saying things like the bible is a metaphor and god really exists, or saying that things are factual, but as in finding the grains of wisdom that will make our lives better, such as being kind to one another, taking things in moderation, etc.). If you don't see worth in part of the doctrine, well obviously ignore it and don't integrate it into your life. That is the freedom that comes with being an atheist. We can decide what is the right way to live our own lives. Religion is not all bad, kernels of it are good and like any story or philosophy (I know I am partially repeating people here, I apologize) information can be gathered from it to put together your own personal life philosophy.
*also not saying the bible has zero history in it, but I'll not go into that because I'm not well versed in how well the bible matches true history, I've just heard that some things do.
did you miss the link of how to kill your boss :
http://www.whackyourboss.com/
(click on the 3 rd picture when it loads the video and listen to the boss)
Oh yeah! Totally missed that. Nice... I like it. That is definitely an option for venting frustration. :)
I don't know what those "four truths" are, but I know what control by religion is, and, even, however sweet Buddhism appears, it is also there in order to gain and have control and, by that, to use people, just like the other religions. All social interaction is about control, but that is, usually ONE individual doing it at a time. Sometimes an organisation will create routines for social manipulation by giving lessons in how to interact with the public, but all in all ONLY religion has a thousands year old system for doing social manipulation, from which spring all the gains and goodies. Buddhism is no better. The best way to get a person on side is to agree with them and to not apparently insist on one's own views, but to smother them with kindness, which is what Buddhism does. When there is enough smothering then there is often enough indebtedness felt that Buddhism will get its way by that. In the final result, religious freedom and tax-free religion is just as bad when it is given to buddhism as to any other religion. You watch any religion, when it gets more and more freedom, how it ensnares more and more of the people. Is not the whole country of Bhutan, Buddhist? - what about Tibet, what about Nepal? - THEY are ensnaring their people, by not only locking up their physical resources, such as property and time, but also by keeping them occupied to the extent that their ignorance becomes hard to beat. THIS is the worst part of it... The modern world KNOWS that "if you educate a woman, you educate a family or a society", but this is knowledge that is kept out of those religious societies. As long as those countries remain mainly Buddhist, there will be very little movement for them into the modern World. - - - (Of course even if the modern world should not be as much waste and squander as it is in the west, the whole World still needs to be modern!)
Cecil please do your research on Buddhism first before making a Generalization fallacy.
Some religions may not be theistic, you are assuming they are.
We are ATheists, not ADeists.
Some Buddhism theologies yes go along those lines you suggest but you cannot put everybody in the same basket.
Religion is about Mind control true but in the past it was also used for knowledge and the preservation of knowledge.
Then people used it to control the masses.
So religions need to be analysed individually and then make judgments accordingly.
Generalizing is usually a bad idea.
The four truths:
http://reluctant-messenger.com/images/noble200x314.gif
For most of your claims, I agree with you if they are applied to theistic religions else one cannot generalize.
Have a read about sexism and Buddhism:
http://buddhism.about.com/od/becomingabuddhist/a/sexism.htm
And no I am not a Buddhist :P
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