HEY Armin,
I am Che, i am also an atheist like you.My only question to you does Islamic religion allow its followers to be an atheist ?
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While I'm not intimately familiar with Islam: I would assume being the follower of a religion that involves a deity and being an atheist are mutually exclusive.
Not necessarily. It can depend on how grey the line is between the religion and culture. There are, for instance, secular Jews.
I am under the impression (I could be wrong) that secular Jews are people of Jewish heritage, but are not practitioners of Judaism. They might celebrate the traditional Jewish holidays, just like I sometimes do Christmas stuff; but they reject the religious component.
However, to me it seems; Chetan de Zosya asked about followers of Islam, not secular people who live in cultures dominated by Islam.
Islam is a religion, not an ethnicity.
No it does not, the definition of an Atheist means the lack of belief in a theistic god.
Allah is a theistic god that requires that you believe in him to be its follower.
Thus no it is impossible.
Apart from that in parts of the Quran it says to kill Infidels who do not believe in Allah.
The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.
Hi Jeff. Actually, I lost the link to our last debate on morality of atheist. You had raised some interesting points and I couldn't post my responses because i lot the thread. I am new to this site, and i didn't know how to trace that argument. I tried all possibilities in the search field, and couldn't find the link. I would be interested to pursue our conversation on that topic.
As to this point you have raised about Quran, if only you had read verse 2:190, then the context would have been clear. It explains who the "them" mentioned here are. It is referring to those people who come to fight you.
you miseed the part where it says:
"And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone."
until there is not disbelief, not until they stop fighting you.
So no your answer does not excuse the killing of people that disbelief.
If you notice the translation you provided, the part that talks about disbelief and worship is put within brackets. This means this is not directly there in the Quranic text, and its only the interpretation of the translator. I would like to know which translation this is? Some of the commonly accepted translations like Yusuf Ali's, translates the word Fitnah as 'Persecution." Therefore, Muslims are commanded to "And fight them until there is no more persecution..." Hope that's clear.
No it is not clear
Fitnah = disbelief makes much more sens then persecution
Ibn al-Atheer said: “Fitnah: trial or test… The word is often used to describe tests in which something disliked is eliminated. Later it was also often used in the sense of sin, kufr (disbelief), fighting, burning, removing and diverting.”
http://islamqa.info/en/22899
In that context it does not make much sens to make it mean persecution since after he says
"and worship is for Allah alone."
Which implies that the previous text must be related to worshiping different gods or not worshiping.
Not to killing whoever persecutes you.
There is no way you can square this circle.
Jeff, you missed the preceeding verse
2:190. Fight in combat, in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.
2:191. And kill (in combat) them wherever you overtake them and turn them out from where they turned you out (in Makkah), and the "fitnah" (terrorism waged against the believers - in this case) is worse than killing (in mortal combat). And do not combat them at the Holy Mosque (in Makkah) unless they engage in combat against you there. But, if they combat against you, then fight back in mortal combat (killing them if necessary if they are killing you). Such is the payback for these disbelievers.
2:192. And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
2:193. Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah (terrorism, agression and oppression) and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors (terrorists).
It is clear from the context that these verses are discussing a defensive war, when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith.
In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back -- but even then Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up.
Even in these circumstances, Muslim are only to fight directly against those who are attacking them, not innocent people or non-combatants
how convenient to change the meaning of a word how you like it even when it doesn't really fit.
It is hopeless debating with people like you since you do not use your head to think but what you want the text to say.
You say…“how convenient to change the meaning of a word how you like it even when it doesn't really fit.”
Ohh..!!! really..???? did I change it or you ?????What an absurd claim..!!!
You quoted 2:191-193"And kill them wherever you find them..."
The obvious question is, "Kill who"?
To answer this question, one should read the verse before and after verse 2:191.
Quran 2:190
"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limit.
The above verse mentions fighting as a means of self defence (i.e with those who fight you) and the verse after 2:191 is:
Quran 2:192
"But if they cease, Allah is oft forgiving, Most Merciful"
These verses were revealed at time when the Muslims had been expelled from their homes on account of their faith. They endured more than ten years of persecution and eventually had to flee to a safe land.
I clarified the misconception and you are saying me that I changed it..!! you are quoting a verse without even reading the preceeding verse
what you are so dishonestly omitting is that he says
"But if they cease, Allah is oft forgiving, Most Merciful"
BEFORE.
It means it was meant for the sentence BEFORE it, not AFTER it.
Then the next sentence CANNOT be just a repetition of the previous meaning like you want it to be.
Which is why you just dodged my valid point of the last part of the sentence in question:
"In that context it does not make much sens to make it mean persecution since after he says
"and worship is for Allah alone."
Which implies that the previous text must be related to worshiping different gods or not worshiping.
Not to killing whoever persecutes you.
There is no way you can square this circle."
In your interpretation (which I am kind enough to accept (for now) in the first sentence) he could have meant persecuted but in the second he clearly does not mean persecuted because it would be a repetition and the sentence would not make sens anymore with the ending of "and worship is for Allah alone.".
You completely omitted from replying or even using anything regarding this in your reply because you are dishonest and dishonest people piss me off and thus I just quit the discussion.
People like you that are so desperate to show they are right in their belief CANNOT be objective in their assessment about a piece of text.
They are biased and cannot be reasoned with.
This forces them to be dishonest and insult others intelligence with their lies and exaggerations just to have it their way.
People like you are simply not worth my time, so have fun having your last say but you will not convince anybody with it.
“You completely omitted from replying or even using anything regarding this in your reply because you are dishonest and dishonest people piss me off and thus I just quit the discussion.”
I omitted just becoz I did not understand properly what you wanna say exactly. I thought of clarifying that u missed the preceded verse (2:190)
Now coming to {2:193} Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is for God. If they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.
The subject of this verse is fighting religious persecution so that people who choose Islam will not be persecuted and here is the brief commentary
[This verses was revealed after the happening at Hudaybiyyah at a time when the Holy Prophet (saw) decided, in accordance with the condition agreed upon in the Peace Treaty of Hudaybiyyah, to embark on a journey to Makkah to perform the qada’ of ‘Umrah along with his Companions, something he was stopped from doing a year before by the disbelievers of Makkah. The noble Companions, on the eve of this projected journey, had started to worry about the disbelievers who could not be trusted upon in a peace treaty. If they chose to be aggressive, as they did a year before, what option are they going to take? Thereupon, the words used in the present verse gave them the permission to meet the challenge of their aggression and kill them where they find them. And if they could, it was permissible for them to drive the disbelievers out from where they had driven the believers out.
Since Muslims, during their entire Makkan period, were made to stay away from fighting against the disbelievers and were repeatedly asked to forego and forgive, so much so, that the noble Companions were, before the revelation of this verse, under the impression that killing disbelievers was bad, and prohibited. It was to remove this misconception that it was said: “And Fitnah is more severe than to kill,” that is, it is true that to kill someone is a terribly evil act, but more terrible and severe is what the disbelievers of Makkah have done by insisting on their kufr and by stopping Muslims from fulfilling their religious obligations, and from performing Hajj and ‘Umrah. It is to avoid this greater evil that killing them has been permitted. The word, Fitnah in the verse (not translated for want of a perfect equivalent in English) inescapably means kufr and shirk and to prevent Muslims from fulfilling their religious obligations of ‘ibadah.]
2:193— WORSHIP FOR ALLAH MEANS THAT IDOLATERS OF MAKKAH WERE PREVENTING FROM PRACTICING THEIR FAITH. so in this case we can fight with them for our right.
It is clear from the context that these verses are discussing a defensive war, when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith. In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back -- but even then
Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up.
The Quran has repeatedly made it clear that faith is voluntary. Some verses that teach that unambiguously are,
{18:29} And say, “The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills – let him believe; and whoever wills – let him disbelieve.”
{10:99} And had your Lord willed [it], those in the earth would have believed – all of them entirely. Is it you then who compels people to be believers?
I am a Muslim and i condemn all forms of violence against humans.
[ 33:48 ] And do not obey the disbelievers and the hypocrites but do not harm them, and rely upon Allah . And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
U have a misconception about that verse..hope I clarified now better..if u wanna quit then it’s ok..
“You completely omitted from replying or even using anything regarding this in your reply because you are dishonest and dishonest people piss me off and thus I just quit the discussion.”
I omitted just becoz I did not understand properly what you wanna say exactly. I thought of clarifying that u missed the preceded verse (2:190)
Now coming to {2:193} Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is for God. If they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.
The subject of this verse is fighting religious persecution so that people who choose Islam will not be persecuted and here is the brief commentary
[This verses was revealed after the happening at Hudaybiyyah at a time when the Holy Prophet (saw) decided, in accordance with the condition agreed upon in the Peace Treaty of Hudaybiyyah, to embark on a journey to Makkah to perform the qada’ of ‘Umrah along with his Companions, something he was stopped from doing a year before by the disbelievers of Makkah. The noble Companions, on the eve of this projected journey, had started to worry about the disbelievers who could not be trusted upon in a peace treaty. If they chose to be aggressive, as they did a year before, what option are they going to take? Thereupon, the words used in the present verse gave them the permission to meet the challenge of their aggression and kill them where they find them. And if they could, it was permissible for them to drive the disbelievers out from where they had driven the believers out.
Since Muslims, during their entire Makkan period, were made to stay away from fighting against the disbelievers and were repeatedly asked to forego and forgive, so much so, that the noble Companions were, before the revelation of this verse, under the impression that killing disbelievers was bad, and prohibited. It was to remove this misconception that it was said: “And Fitnah is more severe than to kill,” that is, it is true that to kill someone is a terribly evil act, but more terrible and severe is what the disbelievers of Makkah have done by insisting on their kufr and by stopping Muslims from fulfilling their religious obligations, and from performing Hajj and ‘Umrah. It is to avoid this greater evil that killing them has been permitted. The word, Fitnah in the verse (not translated for want of a perfect equivalent in English) inescapably means kufr and shirk and to prevent Muslims from fulfilling their religious obligations of ‘ibadah.]
2:193— WORSHIP FOR ALLAH MEANS THAT IDOLATERS OF MAKKAH WERE PREVENTING FROM PRACTICING THEIR FAITH. so in this case we can fight with them for our right.
It is clear from the context that these verses are discussing a defensive war, when a Muslim community is attacked without reason, oppressed and prevented from practicing their faith. In these circumstances, permission is given to fight back -- but even then
Muslims are instructed not to transgress limits, and to cease fighting as soon as the attacker gives up.
The Quran has repeatedly made it clear that faith is voluntary. Some verses that teach that unambiguously are,
{18:29} And say, “The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills – let him believe; and whoever wills – let him disbelieve.”
{10:99} And had your Lord willed [it], those in the earth would have believed – all of them entirely. Is it you then who compels people to be believers?
I am a Muslim and i condemn all forms of violence against humans.
[ 33:48 ] And do not obey the disbelievers and the hypocrites but do not harm them, and rely upon Allah . And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
U have a misconception about that verse..hope I clarified now better..if u wanna quit then it’s ok..
Here orders in Quran are against those who fight against Islam. while we are not fighting against any religious here we are just free thinkers. I am muslim but free thinker confusing about existence of God.
This question is like asking whether one can be tall and short at the same time. They are mutually exclusive concepts. Not possible. If you are an atheist why bother about a religion at all?
I mean i am confusing about existence of God. Here are my questions check it then you shall come to know what i am looking. Check my questions in this link http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/armin-navabi/help-please-i-am-musl...
By definition, one who is an atheist is not a follower of Islam