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Darkkwolf
Something you may not have understood is that many profess to be a Christian, but they simply come in unaware. Someone who has truly been saved, never leaves. Have you not read those who continue till the end are they that are saved. They can continue because they really are.
I'm glad you think I'm weak, for then I know I'm someone God can use. I don't need to be someone who feels they need to be the wisest in the room.
Maybe you've read but didn't believe these verses.
1 Corinthians 1:26-28 KJV
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called : [27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; [28] And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea , and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1 Corinthians 3:18-19 KJV
Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. [19] For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
"Something you may not have understood is that many profess to be a Christian, but they simply come in unaware. Someone who has truly been saved, never leaves. Have you not read those who continue till the end are they that are saved. They can continue because they really are."
That's the common logical fallacy called "The no true Scotsman" fallacy.
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/
DarkkWolfe:
When you do something stupid, as we all do from time to time, and you're full of regret and embarrassment, you can say "but at least I'm not a Christian."
@Algebe roflmao, except at the same time that makes me sad since I can't even talk to most of my family about this stuff. Sigh.
@Chuck
Ok. I'm going to try one last time.
You asked for evidence of the truth of evolution, yet as "proof" of the validity of your viewpoint you continue to refer to a book which must be taken on faith.
Here's what the word evidence means:
the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
Here's what faith means:
1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
Furthermore, you ask for evidence. As though evidence would actually convince you of anything. Please refer to the attachment from a prominent creationist website (answersingenesis.org).
As you can see, biblical inerrancy trumps evidence of any sort. So no matter what evidence you are presented with, no matter if a dinosaur evolved into a bird while sitting in your lap (which evolution does not propose and would never allow), you would still believe your scripture was correct.
You would further congratulate yourself on the strength of your faith in the face of temptation from evil.
Do you see why this discussion can never make real progress? Until you can accept that you are not open to evidence and change your willingness to honestly look at facts, nothing we say would ever convince you.
Likewise, as long as you refuse to accept our assertion that we honestly are open to evidence and new information proving the existence of a divine creator, you will simply continue to repeat the lies and fallacies that have already been disproven by brighter minds than mine.
Please understand, I was indoctrinated from birth into the belief in a loving, caring god (despite the rather grim scriptural picture). There are days I sill feel naked without faith. Exposed to harsh and unforgiving reality without the buffer of an imagined loving god and a belief in eternity. Conversely, I now also feel the thrill of life on the edge, without the ability to rely on eternity to fix all the crap I should have fixed in life.
Unfortunately, my intense desire to believe that my spirit will go on forever in bliss simply doesn't agree with the only available facts we have. And until new evidence is presented, I refuse to waste any more of the ONLY time I'll ever have trying to relate to a god that can't or won't show any objective sign of his existence.
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
Bravo, Dark! Bravo!!!
"You deny both by faith"
I don't deny anything. I don't believe in the existence of your god for the same reason I don't believe in the existence of unicorns.
THE VERY SAME REASON.
I don't believe in your god for the same reason that YOU don't believe in Zeus, Osiris, Vishnu or Thor.
THE EXACT SAME REASON.
So, tell me, Chuck: According to your "logic"...why do you deny the existence of Vishnu? Where is your evidence that he doesn't exist? If you would give a damn about evidence, you would already know that there is no evidence for the existence of the god you believe in. So why are you asking me for evidence to prove your god doesn't exist? you don't care about evidence, because you believe in something without possessing any evidence and you disbelieve in something else even though you have no evidence that it doesn't exist. The truth is, you simply don't care about evidence and your questions are rhetorical questions. You don't care about an answer, either way. You're just here to preach. Nothing more, nothing less. Typical religious nutjob. Just another street corner preacher.
Some call it hypocritical. I just call it dumb.
Blah blah blah, is all I hear from you that there is no God. But I have repeatedly asked you to show me indisputable evidence that evolution is true on a macro level, yet not one of you can!
If there is no God then evolution is the only other option, and there should be all kinds of indisputable evidence. There is no evidence that can't be easily explained in a sensible way that backs up the existence of God. Yet since nature has hidden so much it is very hard for any of you to explain it without putting in imaginary missing links to fill in the gaps. It's really quite funny that you claim I have imaginary things I believe in lol.
" But I have repeatedly asked you to show me indisputable evidence that evolution is true on a macro level,"
>>Do you see any dinosaurs out there?
"If there is no God then evolution is the only other option, "
>>No it isn't, you're using a common logical fallacy called argumentum ad ignorantiam.
"There is no evidence that can't be easily explained in a sensible way that backs up the existence of God."
>>Not according to science, and scientific facts are determined by science , not subjective religious beliefs. Also evolution has nothing to do with atheism, it just happens to destroy some obviously erroneous passages in the bible, but so much of it is demonstrably erroneous guff it's hardly relevant to my atheism that evolution does this. The clincher here however is that even if science falsified evolution tomorrow, I'd still be an atheist because no one has demonstrated proper evidence for any deity, and creationist would still be nothing more superstitious flimflam as no one can demonstrate any evidence to support it.
"Yet since nature has hidden so much it is very hard for any of you to explain it without putting in imaginary missing links to fill in the gaps."
>>Please tell me this is windup?
"It's really quite funny that you claim I have imaginary things I believe in lol."
>>I don't think it's funny, can you demonstrate any evidence for the existence of a deity?
"Blah blah blah, is all I hear"
Sure, put your fingers in your ears and go "blah blah blah"...because you have no interest in a debate. You're just here to preach, just as I expected. Thanks for the confirmation.
"But I have repeatedly asked you to show me indisputable evidence that evolution is true on a macro level"
First of all, like others here have said already, evolution has NOTHING to do with atheism, or theism. Furthermore, there is already mountains of evidence for evolution out there. You just have to look it up. Get your lazy creationist ass up and go to the next museum, to check out the fossibls by yourself, instead of making yourself look like a complete idiot by asking random strangers in the internet to explain the world to you.
Also, disproving evolution won't help you in any way to prove the existence of your god.
Stop asking rhetorical questions and do your own research, before criticizing things you don't even understand. Discoveries in anthropology, embryology, comparative anatomy, species distribution, etc. etc. etc. pp. all show the same connection. Multiple scientific departments have discovered evidence that all fits perfectly in the big picture of evolution, just like Darwin predicted. There is more evidence for evolution than there is for gravity. It's one of the best researched topics in all of science.
As for your question about evidence...since I'm a nice atheist, I will point you in the right direction. Just recently there has been a report of scientists who observed and documented the evolution of Galapagos finches. Do you even read the newspaper? Of course not, because you think the mainstream media is just all fake news, because they want to hide the truth of God, because they hate God or something. Right? Yeah, thought so.
So, you will just claim that this is fake: http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-42103058
The related scientific journal is linked in that article. If you disagree with it, then write your own journal and submit it under academic standards at OMICS, ERIC, AAAS or any other institution for peer-review. Let's see how your ideas hold up to scientific inquiry, shall we? After all, you could become rich and famous for disproving evolution. You could even earn a Nobel Price.
But that's not gonna happen, because you're just full of shit. Just another street corner preacher.
@Chuck
"Let me start by saying I am an ex-atheist/evolutionist"
What is it exactly you think evolution has to do with the question of the existence of god?
I'm not questioning the existence of God!
The Atheist's are making that claim. My question is if there is no God, how did we get here? If there is no God then evolution is the only other explanation for the universe, and life. The problem for the Atheist is there is no evidence for evolution in nature. There is only thoughts about it. They don't get that there is no order in an explosion as in a big bang theory. Explosions do not cause order. And it can't create life!!!!
@Chuck
I didn't ask you about the existence of god. I asked you what you think evolution has to do with the existence of god. What is it, exactly, you think evolution claims?
And I think we better settle that before you wander over to the Big Bang Theory. You're flitting from science to science like a drunk at a wine tasting.
Evolution has nothing to do with the existence of God because evolution as a reason for anything existing is false.
Evolutionists claim evolution is the path on which everything came to be.
@Chuck
" Evolutionists claim evolution is the path on which everything came to be."
Ah no. Nope. No, they most definitely DO NOT. Not even close. Where on earth did you get that from?
evolution
ˌiːvəˈluːʃ(ə)n,ˈɛvəluːʃ(ə)n/Submit
noun
1.
the process by which different kinds of living organism are believed to have developed from earlier forms of living organisms during the history of the earth.
synonyms: Darwinism, natural selection
"early ecologists were not interested in evolution"
2.
the gradual development of something.
"the forms of written languages undergo constant evolution"
synonyms: development, advancement, growth, rise, progress, progression, expansion, extension, unfolding;
Let's look at it again, shall we?
"...different kinds of living organisms...from earlier forms of living organisms"
Mmm. Nothing there even close to " the path on which everything came to be", is there?
Evolution is about life springing from life, not about life springing from a jar of peanut butter.
Evolution HAS NOTHING TO DO with the first emergence of life, so it certainly has nothing to do with the Meaning of Life, The Universe and Everything, does it? It never claimed to, either.
Perhaps you'd like to go away and come back with another argument for the existence of god that's actually...well...relevant? You could try the cosmological argument. You could try the objective morality argument. You could even follow the examples of many leading theist apologists and incorporate the fact of evolution into the teleological argument. Or you could follow the current fashion in theist apologetics that gratuitous evil doesn't even exist- but be aware you won't like where the logic leads you - and neither will they when it dawns on them.
But first , I strongly recommend you go learn what evolution actually IS.
You know what? I just made a New Year's resolution. The next time a theist proclaims god exists and evolution is wrong, I'll ignore the irrelevancy. It's like arguing apples are apples because oranges aren't, ffs!
Someone reassure me this ignorance isn't coming out of schools, please.
Sushisnake
That is fine with me, let's stay on that subject of the definition of evolution.
You brought up the vestigial organs in the whale, so explain this to me. I keep asking for someone to give me proof yet none of you do.
Give it your best shot and show me that this is due to evolution.
No Chuck. Firstly, I didn't bring up the vestigial organs in the whale, and secondly - most importantly- I said evolution BY DEFINITION has nothing to do with the existence or otherwise of god. It has never claimed to have anything to say about the existence of god. I am not interested in discussing evolution with you because evolution has nothing to do with the existence or otherwise of god, or the beginning of life or the universe. It's completely irrelevant.
Now. Do you want to discuss the existence or non existence of god? Or do you want to keep banging the drum about evolution for some peculiar reason best known to yourself?
Chuck "Evolution has nothing to do with the existence of God because evolution as a reason for anything existing is false.
Evolutionists claim evolution is the path on which everything came to be."
Evolution has nothing to do with god because there is no evidence for god, but only evidence for evolution. You have also created yet another straw man argument there, as nothing in evolution is claimed to be a reason for anything existing, it only explains why there is diversity in life and how it happened. Your last sentence is simply false, and your endless use of these straw man arguments very telling. Evolutionists are simply people who accept the scientific fact of evolution, and the scientific theory that explains it. The theory explain how and why the diversity of life exists, not how life originated.
How old do you believe the universe is?
How old do you believe the universe is?
How old do you believe the universe is?
How old do you believe the universe is?
How old do you believe the universe is?
This question isn't going away...
@Chuck: "there is no evidence for evolution in nature."
Are we living on the same planet? There is evidence in the fossil record, in DNA, in the development of drug-resistant bacteria, in vestigial organs in whales, etc. Go to New Zealand and see how, in a isolated environment with no native land mammals, birds evolved to fill the evolutionary niches occupied elsewhere by rabbits, cattle, etc. In the absence of mammalian predators, they have become flightless. The kiwi, for example, lives in burrows like a rabbit.
You could study paleontology, genetics, biology and various other disciplines, but if all that's too hard for you, just close your mind and say god did it. And next time you talk to god, ask him how the kiwis and kangaroos got to the Ark, and how they got home after the flood.
Let's start with the vestigial organs in the whales. How about you educate me on this and then we will go on to the next one ok.
Just Google it, whales were once land dwelling mammals and had hind legs, they still have them but they are vestigial. Try and think what that fact means, and try using an open mind.
Sheldon I believe you were one of the people posting comments not to far back in this forum when I explained what those bones in the whales are used for. Yet no one responded to it. Maybe you will this time.
Do a little research into the anatomy of a whale and you will see that those bones are used for sexual activity and for their ability to, in a word use the bathroom. So tell me why would nature remove whatever it was that the muscles for those abilities were attached to, and replace them with the bones they used for legs? Why not just keep whatever was there and get rid of the legs bones? I'll guarantee you the whale wouldn't like it if a veterinarian removed those bones. He would get quite bloated not being able to relieve himself.
I've heard of claims that man kinds tailbone is vestigial, though it is used for the same purpose as those bones in the whale. Are you willing to have yours removed? I know someone who is willing to pay $100,000.00 to anyone who is willing to have the procedure done.
I already know that the vestigial legs now serve a different purpose, so what? It is a fact that organs and limbs have different uses over time as species evolve. What has this to do with you having no proper evidence for a deity or creationism beyond logically fallacious appeals to ignorance?
How old do you believe the universe is?
"I've heard of claims that man kinds tailbone is vestigial, though it is used for the same purpose as those bones in the whale. Are you willing to have yours removed? I know someone who is willing to pay $100,000.00 to anyone who is willing to have the procedure done."
Could you show a post of mine claiming the human coccyx can be removed without ill effect? You do love your straw man arguments don't you. It is indeed the vestigial remnant of a tail, this does not mean it now has no purpose, merely that it does not serve the same purpose now we have evolved to no longer have tails.
You do know that scientists have used selective breeding in a laboratory in place of natural selection to produce an entirely new species? They used a species of fruit fly which has a vastly accelerated cycle of reproduction and produced an entirely new species of fruit fly. Species change over time, this is a fact, whether you like it or not.
How old do you believe the universe is?
Where is your evidence that those bones were once legs and something else was in place of them?
It's so nice that you expect me to give you an answer in which I've expressed that I can't because God has to show you the truth. But yet you can't give me any proof of your claims either. All they are is claims, after all it takes to long to see it happening. How convenient for you and the other believers.
So your telling me that a walking whale decided it wanted to swim in the ocean. And so it began to evolve over thousands of years by each generation changing a little at a time from walking on the land to swimming. I wonder at which point within the time period of all this happening that they actually left the land. Did they have a whale tale before they went in? How much of a problem would all this cause over this extremely long period of time? How many of them went thru this period together? All changing at the same time or only a few? Did they fall prey to their predators easier? Did the first ones that entered the water die because they couldn't swim well. We're there not other large carnivores in the water at that time? If so wouldn't that have hindered their progress into the water. Did the first one that was born with some noticeable changes still attract others of the opposite sex, or did they have to force the other into mating?
Do you have any idea of how many other questions could be asked? Unless this process happens to many at the same time, it's doubtful a species would survivewith all the challenges. Then you have to ask for this process to occur there should be thousands of fossils of at least most of the missing links. After all thousands or possibly millions of years for this to take place. Are you really that naive, not only in the lineage of the whale, but of every kind of creature out there come on really?
Yes Sheldon I believe in a young earth and the universe was all created in the same week.
Because God is all powerful and spoke it into existence!!!
@Chuck: "We're there not other large carnivores in the water at that time? If so wouldn't that have hindered their progress into the water."
If you want to see an example of another mammalian species transitioning from a land-based to an aquatic lifestyle, look at the hippopotamus. Their DNA shows that their closest relatives are the cetaceans, but they are still mainly land-based. Now tell me why an intelligent designer would have put webbed feet on an animal like that?
Hard to believe someone in the modern world would take an Iron Age fairytale so seriously.
@Chuck
"So your telling me that a walking whale decided it wanted to swim in the ocean?"
Nope. But I can understand why you thought we might be, what with the talking snake, donkey and unicorns you're used to.
I'm not making claims about evolution, I'm repeating factual scientific evidence. I really don't care if you choose to live your life denying scientific facts because they contradict archaic creation myths, that's your call, you asked me and I answered. I accept evolution because I am aware of the weight of evidence science demands, and the rigorous and constant way it treats all scientific claims and ideas. Though if it were falsified tomorrow by the same process I'd accept that, I'd have no choice, as unlike you i don't make subjective choices using faith, I follow where the evidence demands. I of course remain an atheist because no evidence has been demonstrated for the existence of a deity, and humans axiomatically create fictional deities.
"Yes Sheldon I believe in a young earth and the universe was all created in the same week.
Because God is all powerful and spoke it into existence!!!"
I asked how old you believe the universe is?
How did god "speak" it into existence?
What did god use to "speak" it into existence?
What evidence have you for these bald assertions?
@Chuck: "those bones are used for sexual activity and for their ability to, in a word use the bathroom"
That's interesting. Lots of animals use organs for multiple purposes. The human voicebox has a component called a glottis that's used in speech. For example, you partially close the glottis to make voiced consonants (g, b, v, etc.) and open it to make unvoiced consonants (k, p, f, etc.). You also use the glottis to unpop your ears on a plane by holding your nose and blowing at the same time (the Valsalva maneuver). But the most interesting use is to create downward pressure for defecation (using the bathroom for sensitive souls). That can also raise your blood pressure to dangerous levels, so watch out. Nobody wants to be found dead on the throne like the King of Rock and Roll.
Does any of this sound like the work of an intelligent designer to you?
@Chuck: "Let's start with the vestigial organs in the whales."
How about lungs? Why would an "intelligent designer" create marine animals that need to breathe air into lungs? Doesn't that suggest to you that maybe whales' ancestors lived on land? Did you know that whales drown sometimes? Then there are the hip bones. Do fish have hip bones? Whales don't walk any more, so the legs have atrophied, but the hip bones are still there. You can see a similar process in flightless birds. The kiwi has vestigial wings. Why would an intelligent designer put hips in fish or wings in a flightless bird?
"...kangaroos got home after the flood."
Angels on jet skis, Algebe. A flock of 'em. I want to know how our First People's culture manages to be 45,000 years old in a 6,000 year old earth? Do you think god put them in a parallel universe to protect them, then brought them back? Perhaps they are the real Chosen People and the Jews got it waaay wrong. Indulged in a little wishful thinking. So did the Christians and Muslims.
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