We have all been in the situation where we are conversing with a deeply religious person, and then the classic "how could the universe have started without a God" comes up. I usually answer back with, how did that God get here? If everything needs to be created, then why is there a special case for theists? They always come back with "but God is outside of our universe, and is not bound by space and time". It's always a super circular argument. No one is ever able to convince the other party. For me, I do not know exactly how the universe came into existence, whether there was a creator behind it or not I can not fully say. However, telling me that there is no other way the universe could have started isn't going to convince me that they are correct. Me telling them that a creator needs a creator according to their logic doesn't change their minds, so we are back at the bottom. Then, some will go back and tell me that all the information is in the bible. I come back with the fact that they cannot be sure how much of the bible is actually correct, if it is correct at all. Have any of you ever been in this situation, and how do you usually end the conversation?
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Alex, I will pick: "You Can't Fix Stupid" for $400
Damn, MCD! You win! I can't top that one. LMAO
@Ratburn: "but God is outside of our universe, and is not bound by space and time".
The best response to that is "how do you know?" Keep asking them where they got that information. I don't think it's in the Bible. There's certainly no basis in science for it. Also ask them to describe what this realm outside time and space is like. They actually have no concept of what they're saying. It's just empty words.
Another argument you can try: God is unchanging, eternal, outside of time, right? So how come something changed to make god want to create a universe. First there was god plus nothing. Then there was god plus universe. Isn't that a big change?
The torah explains why god wanted to have fellowship with people. being god he could do anything that pleases him!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is not limited like your making him out to be, Because of your finite mind. You don`t know Saint Aquinas argument that stated back in the 13th century. OR Aristotle or saint Anselm. What atheist doesn`t know the arguments like you?
Wow, all those exclamations Now I am convinced!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@ AG
QUIT YOUR FUCKING PROSELYTIZING!
@Agnostic believer: "being god he could do anything that pleases him!"
Doing, being pleased are not possible for an unchanging perfect being. Doing is the result of change in the doer. I have an itch so I scratch.
Being pleased implies a state in which god was not pleased or less pleased. "God wanted fellowship with people" LOL. How can a perfect being want anything? And why should I impressed by what's written in old tribal manuscripts of dubious provenance?
Like every human, including me of course, Saint Aquinas, Saint Anselm, and Aristotle also had limited minds. They used logic based on their experience of day-to-day reality to try to argue god into existence. All of them rely on unproven and fallacious premises about prime movers and imperishable substances.
you can`t compare with those people. God could and has done whatever pleases himself. Your limited here in your reasoning this out. You aren`t a worshipper of God nor are you a follower of the life that he expects so your sounding kind of foolish to try to explain gods attributes. you have a carnal mind As The apostle Paul states in Romans that people who don`t follow God cannot know God or his attributes.
yeah but agnostic believer, can God do everything?
agnostic believer,
When those 100 pound hailstones start falling on your head you will be cursing God like everyone else.
@AG
THERE IS NO FUCKING GOD!
@Agnostic Believer: "Your limited here in your reasoning this out. "
And you're limited in not reasoning it out. I'll ask you again. How can a perfect unchanging being do anything or be pleased about anything?
And by the way, you know nothing about my "carnal mind". That sounds like an ad hominen attack to me, and you were complaining about those just a few minutes ago.
"People who don`t follow God cannot know God or his attributes." Is that supposed to be a substitute for reasoned argument? To that I'd reply that people who follow god cannot know god or his attributes either. Nobody can. According to the label on the can, god's eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. You can't really understand a single one of those concepts.
Holy fuuuuck... *facepalm* he's at it again.
Don't feed the trolls people. ;0)
@Ratburn Re: Exclamation points
Little side note here for the new guy.
Notice AB/DC's excessive use of exclamation points to prove his statements are correct? A weee word of advice: DO NOT try that method to make things true. I had to find out the hard way that shit doesn't work. Made the statement, "I can fly like Superman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Cost me six weeks in a full leg cast. Granted, it is possible I didn't use enough exclamation points, but I am wary about trying again. Will definitely use a safety line if I do, though.