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Speaking to believers the Bible says, "You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you" -Romans 2:22. Its almost as if God is saying Christians are the biggest obstacle for people.
So put it this way, God doesn't look at labels, He looks at people. The Bible basically claims we are all atheists, very few truly believe, and even less live as if they did. "When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?” - Luke 18:8. The answer is probably not.
The problem is that the Christian narrative goes much deeper than Salvation, its about putting an end to evil and sin, death and disaster. We all have the choice to do good or do evil, to show love or selfishness. The problem is that most people choose evil and selfishness. For example, we may not have killed anyone physically, but we may have done so with our words. That's why repentance is a huge part of the Gospel. Its rescuing people from the mindset of evil, and calling them to look higher. Telling you about God doesn't damn you if you don't believe. But telling you about God might save you, if you've been living a bad life.
How does having evidence that God exists affect this? It doesn't. Like I said further back, the Devil has seen God, and the Devil believes God exists, and I doubt he'll be in Heaven.
Hmm so no one really knows what your god's requirements are to get into heaven? Other than a highly subjective "be good, don't do evil?" Show love etc?
Even most christians are unlikely to get into heaven?
What kind of "might save you" are we talking about? 1%? Less than? Don't know?
All seems kind of like compelling arguments to party hard and live life to the fullest, cause the rest of eternity is going to very likely suck because we don't even know what exactly the rules are to get into heaven, What chance have we? We could be good and devout, but that is also likely to not get you in. Maybe if I lived like a monk? quite the "ask" w/o good evidence of heaven or god.
I don't know how you got this from what I've written. Getting into heaven is not about requirements and rules. That's like asking if the rules written at a swimming pool can save you once you're in the pool drowning. They can't, only a lifeguard can save you. Those rules and requirements were meant to keep you from drowning in the first place had you followed them. But you didn't, none of us did.
This concept is literally one of the things that makes me side with Christianity and not another. Because its human nature to think we can atone for our own sins, that if we work hard enough, follow the right rules, make the right prayers, that we can save ourselves.
I honestly can't relate to your question, because I don't care if I go to heaven or hell. I care about trying to do the right thing, and following what I believe to be true. The rest is God's problem, not mine.
Hey I can applaud that. Do what you think is right, and not worried about heaven or hell as a motivating factor.
Kind of like me really. I do what I feel is right, and heaven/hell does not motivate me one way or another.
I just feel like I don't need a religion or a book to tell me how to do what is right. "Treat others like how you would like to be treated," works pretty well for me. Saves a lot of time and energy and effort too.
Why not carefully investigate the reasoning behind why people choose to be atheist? You can still be doing the right thing, and follow what you believe is true, being an atheist. You are not worried about the afterlife, what is there to lose?
But keep in mind I'm Christian because its what makes the most sense to me. Atheism is just a label. Labels are good for organizing things, but they don't mean anything. If there's a part of me that's atheist, then I'm atheists whether I call myself that or not. However, the label that best describes me is Christian. Throwing that label off and calling myself atheist wouldn't change that fact.
Why not continue to investigate what makes the most sense? Perhaps what makes the most sense can change. If someone offered new compelling evidence for their god, I would consider it, if the evidence stood up to scrutiny I would change my position.I would be both terrifying yet exhilarating. The idea of gods "plan" some sort of afterlife, sounds very nice. It would be like being handed a million bucks, very nice in theory, but to take such a nice sounding idea w/o suspicion to motives behind it seems very foolish to me I would investigate it thoroughly before just accepting a million bucks.
Infact theirs this nigerian prince that has millions of dollars he is prepared to give you, if you just give him your bank routing numbers...
Likewise
Well I don`t believe in sin nor your bible or any damn religion you espouse to. WE have nothing to be concerned about here sin or no sin, Why don`t you give it a rest you and your type of moral Christianity. Your particular God is Amoral to say the least.
With all due respect sir, I do believe you may have dissociative identity disorder. Like, I'm not even saying this to be funny.
John 14:6, Acts 4:12, 1 Timothy 2:5, just to name a few. Romans 10:9 clearly shows that the person must believe in Jesus to be saved.
Freefromgod,
Is Yeshua Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies?
"If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
Is this your concern? The rules of logic don't support your claim that one must believe in Jesus to be saved. What we have here is "If A then B." It doesn't follow that, "If B, then A". It doesn't say, "Only if you declare with your mouth ..."
I really hope this helps.
The majority of Christians interpret the new testament to teach that you must believe in Jesus to be saved, and there are dozens of verses to support this. I do t think the verse you quoted means that all a person has to do is behave well and he or she will go to heaven. In fact, Ephesians 2:8-9 and many other verses say good behavior is not enough.
This is what I tried explaining earlier. Nobody can save themselves. That's foundational, my works, my good deeds, walking on glass, none of that saves a person. Only God can save a person. But that's also why religion and church can't save you. Being Christian doesn't save you. Being Buddhist doesn't damn you.
The topic of salvation goes beyond steeples and cathedrals build by man.
According to the old testament, yes, Dio. What's the point?
The point is that if Yeshua is Yahweh = the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies = then he doesn't give a shit about the Gentiles. Remember, the golden cube is called New Jerusalem, which should tell you that Gentiles won't be welcomed. It also has twelve gates, one gate for each one of the twelve tribes of Israel. There's no gate for the Gentiles. And on Judgment Day each of the Apostles will be given on the the tribes to judge. Now I suppose some Gentiles could get in to be slaves to the chosen ones for all eternity. Sounds like fun.
John6, if believing in Jesus doesn't save you, but only god saves you, then where is the supposed freewiil of christian believers? How exactly do Christians become saved? I know what the majority of Christians think and what the bible says, what do you say, though?
"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and tremble." - James 2:19
Believing in Jesus and God is important, but a lot of people who believe aren't gonna be there. Free Will comes in because you do have the choice to accept or reject salvation. Its a free gift but its not a forced gift. Even EMTs aren't allowed to do CPR on a person if they don't want to be saved.
" Even EMTs aren't allowed to do CPR on a person if they don't want to be saved."
Not necessarily. It depends on the municipality. It also frequently depends on whether there is, for example, an indication that the individual is suicidal.
True. I was thinking more in lines of a DNR order.
John6, maybe I'm not at all intelligent, but I did not see an answer to exactly how people are saved? From your past posts it sounded like you believe anyone can be saved regardless of which religion they are. Can you elaborate?
The original intent of this thread was to see if anyone had a reasonable argument for why their god is the right one. I dont believe such an argument exists, but I could be wrong. Also, I wanted to show that choosing a religion is really just a gamble, and as such how do religions justify the dire consequences of not choosing theirs (supposed consequences).
I'll give you an analogy, but keep in mind its just an analogy. Suppose you to a bank, and steal a substantial amount of money. On your way out, you get caught. Can you save yourself at this point? Can you promise to pay the money back, and not go to jail? Can you promise to pay back twice as much and not go to jail? Even if you promise never to steal again, you still have to go to jail.
When you ask how people can save themselves, its really the same thing. We can't, it just doesn't work that way. "When you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty" Luke 17:10. People think living a good life makes them any better, but that's like going to your boss and expecting a reward for just doing what he hired you to do.
Salvation is literally not up to us. That's why Jesus is the only way. And when I say Jesus I'm not talking about Christianity. God doesn't belong to Christianity anymore than He belonged to the Jews. As far as I know, an entirely new religion can rise up, and leave Christians behind. This is why Christians talk about Salvation through Faith. Faith just means trust, and trust is the only thing we can do, cause the rest is not up to us.
For a good proof for which God to choose, see thread topic "proof for the Torah"
OK, but a person has to choose Jesus, right? Why should I choose Jesus over Krishna? How would I KNOW I was making the right choice?
Maybe I'm still not getting your point, John6. You wrote that Jesus is the only way. How do I know that?
You're trying to bring the conversation back to which is the real God. That's fine, but I was actually responding to something specific you were saying, about damnation and how its a gamble and how none of that makes sense to you.
I'm basically saying that it doesn't make sense to me either, and don't forget I said making sense is a prerequisite for me. The fact that I see Christianity teaching a different narrative, a narrative that does make sense to me, makes me choose it over others.
Moving away from that and into what your OP was about, I guess I just need to first know why you think there is any ambiguity or confusion between religions? Its literally like confusing sports together. Some religions don't even have deities, and others wouldn't consider themselves religions at all in the way Christianity considers itself a religion.
Atheist.
Definition: Does not believe in god(s).
Atheist can believe in religions all they want and still be an atheist. As long as they do not believe in the commonly accepted definition of god, they can believe in what ever else they want and still be an atheist.
I believe in the (small) possibility of some sort of greater "entity" but I am still very much atheist, and not agnostic.
I am currently watching the TV series "Vikings". Their Gods apparently have children, fight battles, wounded and bleed and got killed as well, awesome. Than their creatures who were killed in battle go to Valhalla, and they fight again up there as their feast?
I will try to find some more suitable God / Gods for your choosing, just pray for me thanks.
My confusion is that religions seem to have basically equal claims as to which god or belief system is the right one. Yet many of the major religions also teach that if you're not on their side there will be dire consequences. Apparently it is of eternal importance to make the right choice. Yet how is a sincere "seeker" going to make a rational decision as to what to believe? Thats the part that makes no sense to me. I no longer believe in ant god or gods, nor wish to. I started this thread to see how some theists solve this problem, and if they did, does their solution make sense. So far, I haven't heard any way to solve the problem.
That`s because there is no solution there is no way to solve the problem its all heresay Depending on where you live has a great deal to which religion you will choose. I agree with you saying there is many religions that state there the right ones. That`s why they have followers. freefromgod you will never get a satisfying answer here.
Now for the serious bit.
Have you ever thought as why some people believe in God or inherently believers? Even when they are reasonably educated, financially secure, aware of the atheist argument, and reasonably versed in his/her belief? Not only that, they also live in the place where the culture of belief in their surrounding is alien for them.
A true believer is willing to die for his/her belief, not just confess. Osama bin laden inherited 250 million dollars sometime in the early 90's, he used them all to advanced what he believed in, and he died in his belief. Right belief or wrong belief is just matter of onlookers opinion.
Any person can boast his/her belief as the right one, but as soon as spending the money involved in it they all wet their pants. Belief in God in is not in word, it is life action.
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