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I will post this here given the multitude of replies to my original post.
Greetings, I thank you for your replies and keeping the discussion at a civilized tone.. With the exception of one case, whom I will reply to at the end.
Original comment from Nyarlathotep I replied to: “Which makes sense; the first appearance of the Shroud of Turin in history is from 1357.”
In my reply to Nyarlathotep I have demonstrated using some historical evidence, that the claim of the existence of the Shroud beyond 1357. With evidence. Again here is one of the sources I used..
Eye witness Robert de Clari (1170-1216), Chapter 92 Church of St. Mary of Blachernae.
"But among the rest, there was also another of the minsters, which was called the Church of my Lady Saint Mary of Blachernae, within which was the shroud wherein Our Lord was wrapped. And on every Friday that shroud did raise itself upright, so that the form of Our Lord could clearly be seen. And none knows - neither Greek nor Frank - what became of that shroud when the city was taken."
I did not use any canonical or non-canonical (apocrypha) gospels or acts, even though I did allude to them. Furthermore I did not use more earlier sources that allude to or affirm the existence of such a relic, and they are plenty to list. If you are not satisfied with these historical sources I have an other one.. This is a description of the relic in a sermon from August 16th 944 AD. The day after the relic arrived from Edessa.
Excerpt from the sermon of the Archdeacon of the Hagia Sophia, Gregory Referendarius. Rediscovered in the Vatican Archives in 2004 by Mark Guscin.. and I quote.
“This reflection, however, let everyone be inspired with the explanation, has been imprinted only by the sweat from the face of the originator of life, falling like drops of blood, and by the finger of God. For these are the beauties that have made up the true imprint of Christ, since after the drops fell, it was embellished by drops from his own side. Both are highly instructive, blood and water there, here sweat and image. Oh equality of happenings, since both have their origin in the same person. The source of living water can be seen and it gives us water, showing us that the origin of the image made by sweat is in fact of the same nature as the origin of that which makes the liquid flow from the side. This is just like a spring pouring out fresh water as it were from two vessels, which water the tree of life and divide it into two streams, recording the same God and man, one marvelously producing something praiseworthy and superhuman, the other in bringing about a defined likeness of a man, declaring with clear words with which colors the image and likeness should be adorned. And for the prototype to be transferred to the likeness, he does this himself with the sweat of the human form he deigned to bear, and as befits the divinity he decreed that the intellectual image in us, the one we had breathed into us by the first life giving visitation of the spirit as a good gift, should not be formed from another source, just as he did not form his own image from anywhere else, but rather from a human nature, as it were from the sweat of the form he had taken on, with exactly the right colors. And what is this nature? Purity, calmness, rejection of all evil and whatever else belongs to this class of things, through which similarity to the divinity is formed. Indeed, an image not formed by such things is not like the prototype, and is called something else, not an image.”
The existence of a Shroud prior to 1357 is undoubted, as the surviving historical evidence proves. Now you might want to argue that history is not really history, certain events are just fairy tales made up by “Christian writers”, or even that the manuscripts are forgeries or historians are lying based on some conspiracy to prop up religion. That is your belief and opinion.. as religion is the belief and opinion of others. There are those who believe the earth is flat.. everyone has an opinion, but do you have any proof to back up your claims? I offered my proof of historical existence of the Shroud prior to the 1350ies.
Sapporo..
Forgeries, replicas, and copies have always existed in human history. The study of history is constantly evolving with the discovery of new information, there are thousands of manuscripts that are hidden in archives and libraries, and not everything has been translated yet. New manuscripts are constantly being rediscovered. The Apocalypse of Peter is a great example of this, portions of the work was discovered in a grave in 1887 and an other version in 1910. Prior to that we only had a reference that such a work existed. Asking me to demonstrate an unbroken chain of provenance is beyond ridiculous and not rational. Time, ruling regimes, warfare, man and nature has destroyed many artifacts and works, and yet we are not sure what might be discovered in the future either, that could well prove an unbroken chain of provenance. The study of history and archaeology is all about filling gaps. For an atheist like yourself who advocates for “reason”, your demand is very unreasonable.. However since you have made a reguest I have one myself.. Can you demonstrate that there is more than one shroud? Can you demonstrate with evidence that the Shroud at Turin is not the same as those mentioned in earlier historical sources? .. You can't. However with the sources I provided, I show that there was a shroud in Constantinople, that was stolen by the Fourth Crusade, during the sack of Constantinople.. Way before any such a relic showed up in Western Europe. It's the same way most of the manuscripts, works of art, relics and literature came to medieval Western Europe.. That prompted the renaissance.. Prior to that Western Europe was truly underdeveloped and medieval. “Out of the East.. light.”
P.s. I am sure the Byzantines would have given the Crusaders a receipt of authenticity for the stolen Shroud.. Had they known Atheists wouldn't believe in the year 2018.
Cognostic..
I did provide historical evidence of the existence of a Shroud before 1389. Which is the letter of Bishop Pierre D'Arcis to Antipope Clement VII, where he claims the Shroud at Lirey as a forgery.
"Eventually, after diligent inquiry and examination, he discovered how the said cloth had been cunningly painted, the truth being attested by the artist who had painted it, to wit, that it was a work of human skill and not miraculously wrought or bestowed."
The first mention of the Shroud at Lirey is from 1353-1357, at least 32 years before it was supposedly made, even so Bishop Pierre does not bother to name the artist. Don't you think that an artist with exceptional skill would have been offered several exceptional commissions? Perhaps some commoner trying to make an impression? They were not very well educated back then in late medieval Western Europe to produce such highly skilled work. Pierres letter was the first to describe the shroud with some accuracy, however not naming the “wonder” artist who supposedly painted it, puts serious doubt in his story. Because lets face it 1355 Europe and particularly France was very backward compared to 1450 Florence or Venice for that matter.
Regarding the rest of your comment, I do agree with you, you need to prove it. Prove that there were forgeries circulating in the Byzantine Empire mentioning different Shrouds, at different locations, and also prove your claim that they were widely prevalent and in circulation at the time, as they are today. Perhaps you have some evidence, since you speak with such certainty and confidence of forgeries circulating in the Byzantine Empire. Perhaps you have studied the history of the Byzantine Empire and can shed light with some confidence. There was no shroud in Western Europe prior to the Sack of Constantinople in 1204 AD. But I would like to see your proof on multiple shrouds and such forgeries in the Byzantine Empire. You claim so, might have to prove it as well.. I proved using primary sources, that there was a shroud, with the image of Christ in Constantinople, from 944-1204. Your turn, I guess to back up your claims with facts and evidence.
The bottom line is.. and I will do what many Atheist love to do.. Use Caps Locks.. CAN ANY OF YOU PROVE THAT THERE ARE MULTIPLE SHROUDS? OR THE EXISTENCE OF MULTIPLE SHROUDS IN THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE?!
Sheldon
A little piece from Sheldon's verbal diarrhea..: “Another drive by religious cretin, with a ludicrously low bar for credulity in risible fairy tales, posts a tirade of unevidenced verbiage about an asinine myth, then claps himself on the back, then *IMMEDIATELY fucks off and is never seen again.”
Oh well, Sheldon.. I regret that I did not sit all day and night waiting for your reply. Do not make the mistake to think that by attempting insult you reinforce your point of view. On the contrary, you make yourself look weak and a moron, the likes of which are employed at Walmart or McDonald's hires on minimum pay. Believe me, I too can use insulting, degrading and humiliating tones.. better than you. I do have a prior history of such behavior, that merited bans on social media giants and public forums.. In the past. My reputation is even worse in person. So Sheldon, instead of arguing that it would have been better had your mother swallowed you, instead.. I will argue that my mental capacity and maturity is certainly at least a decade older than yours.. and guess what, I win that argument.
P.s. Had I met Sheldon before, I would have created a username like this.. "Unfortunately Sheldon's mom didn't swallow".
@UneducatedFu-... Er-uh... UneducatedAtheist Re: "Believe me, I too can use insulting, degrading and humiliating tones.. better than you. I do have a prior history of such behavior, that merited bans on social media giants and public forums.. In the past. My reputation is even worse in person."
LMAO..... Wow, dude! YOU are a real WINNER! Strolling in here the way you did believing we have never seen your type before.... *shaking head in amusement*... Awwww... How cute. Goochie-goochie goo, wittle snookie wookums. Ya know, I would call you an amateur, but I would feel bad insulting amateurs in such a fashion. Nevertheless, it is nice of you to volunteer to be the next mouse in this den of lions. Always fun to have a new toy to play with. However, based on your initial posts, I can tell we may tire of you rather quickly. Simply not much of a challenge as far as I can see. Still, we take amusement where we can find it. Personally, I am rather sick and twisted like that at times, but amusement is amusement, nonetheless.... *yaaaaaaawwwwnnnn......*... Anyway, beddie-bye time for me, but I'll be checking back in tomorrow at some point. Sweet dreams, you darling little fellow.... *smooch*...
Edit to add: Oh! Almost forgot! Hey, since you are so easily convinced of such nonsense as that shroud, I have a fantastic offer for you. I happen to have THE pair of underwear worn by THE Roman guard who poked Jesus in the ribs as Jesus was hanging on the cross. And even better, it was the pair of underwear the guard was wearing on THE day he did the poking. I'll make you a great deal on them, and even write you out an official looking history of how they came into my possession. It would be a great piece of history to share with your congregation. Toodles.
.. Er-uh... Goochie-goochie goo, wittle snookie wookums.
"I can tell we may tire of you rather quickly."
Yup, I agree.. I am told being anally abused without a condom or lubrication, gets tiresome pretty quick.
"den of lions".. Laughs!
Laughs
@UneducatedAtheists the onus is on you to prove that the Shroud of Turin has an unbroken chain of provenance to the time of Jesus. If you do this, you will be able to prove that the Shroud dates from the time he supposedly lived. But you would still need to prove it is a burial cloth, and the burial cloth of Jesus.
As it is, the cloth has been dated to the 14th century, and the proportions of the figure on the Shroud are not anatomically possible.
Yeah when I get to examine the Shroud myself, I will write you a letter.. but you will have to convert to Christianity and be baptized when proven wrong. Laughs!
You remember what I asked you myself?
"Can you demonstrate that there is more than one shroud? Can you demonstrate with evidence that the Shroud at Turin is not the same as those mentioned in earlier historical sources?"
Yeah I wasn't holding my breath..
Sadly you're another theist who is utterly clueless as to what represents objective evidence. Mainly because like most theists you've already decided to believe the superstition you've been indoctrinated with, and set a risible low threshold for belief using the usual selection bias we've seen so often.
Anyone who gives this risible myth credence is delusional. There isn't a shred of objective evidence for anything supernatural here, and I don't care if you have an affidavit signed by Mary, it's still just an unevidenced anecdotal claim for a mythical unexplained magic event.
Get over it.
"P.s. Had I met Sheldon before, I would have created a username like this.. "Unfortunately Sheldon's mom didn't swallow"."
Catchy, I love it when their faux piety evaporates. However I am still finding my way with the american vernacular, so are you saying your mother does swallow?
Never mind, I've had a couple of dozen private messages confirming the answer.
If it's an ad hominem exchange you want Bullwinkle, trust me you are out of your depth.
"Robert may be one of the few documented witnesses to the Shroud of Turin before 1358. He reports (1203) that the cloth was in Constantinople, in the church of Blachernae: "Where there was the Shroud in which our Lord had been wrapped, which every Friday raised itself upright so one could see the figure of our Lord on it."[3]
"The historians Madden and Queller describe this part of Robert's account as a mistake: Robert had actually seen or heard of the sudarium, the handkerchief of Saint Veronica (which also purportedly contained the image of Jesus), and confused it with the grave cloth (sindon).[4]
"As there is no mention of this "shroud" in any other source, the historian Andrea Nicolotti suggests that Robert’s account is quite a confused description of the famous miracle that occurred every Friday in the church of Blachernae: the so-called “habitual miracle”, that consisted in the prodigious elevation of a cloth before an icon of the Virgin.[5]"
Its just a quote from Wikipedia, but I am only a reformed baboon.
@ Obviously you missed the point. THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF SHROUD STORIES. Verify the one you are talking about is the same shroud as the Shroud of Turin. No one cares about a date unless you can prove your date in accordance with the death of your Jesus who may not have even existed. "The Shroud of Turin was created to deceive. It was manufactured at a time, in western Europe especially, when relics meant pilgrimage and pilgrimage meant money. The competition for both, among rival cities and towns, was intense. And stealing and forgery were both part of the business." It was also a time when the material remains of Jesus' Passion were very much in vogue, when St. Louis would build Ste. Chapelle solely to enshrine the Crown of Thorns (which had recently been stolen from Constantinople).
https://www.shroud.com/bar.htm#article
Asserting a date is not EVIDENCE.
Prove you can date your shroud to the time of Jesus
Prove it belonged to Jesus and not someone else.
Prove Jesus was wrapped in it,
Follow it from hand to hand from the death of Jesus until now or cite DNA evidence demonstrating the body of Christ and the shroud have the same DNA./ (Good luck on that, there is no blood on the shroud, vermilion is not blood.
Let's pretend the shroud is real.. It does not prove Jesus was real. The shroud could belong to anyone no matter how old it is. Even if it belonged to Jesus, it does not prove there was a resurrection or that Jesus had magical powers. It certainly does not prove Jesus ever existed or that he was god in the flesh. The Shroud is essentially useless.
I can tell you with 99.9% confidence, I did not miss the point. I came to this forum to specifically reply to a person who inaccurately claimed the history of the Shroud prior to 1350 is non-existent. I provided evidence for that. I am still waiting for your evidence however, claiming that there are multiple shrouds. You see, the way I see it is, you fell in the trap of thinking I care if you believe, if the Shroud is real or not. I don't care what you believe. I don't care if you don't accept Christianity.. Not my problem. It's what statements you can prove, and you have not backed up your earlier bold claims. Obviously I am a little "anal" when it comes to history, which might give away clues about me.. If one is smart enough to do the math. Sure, there are are about a dozen stories on the Shroud, if you include reproductions and different versions, a couple of hundred stories. Multiple stories on the same Shroud, does not equate multiple Shrouds or multiple locations. There were never, multiple competing Shrouds at different locations to merit claims of forgeries circulating out there. A false claim, which you asserted. Unless you can prove me wrong.
However I do agree with you on this, relics was, is, and will be big business. It promotes religious tourism, boosts the economy of many areas, and fills the coffers, creates the opportunity for artists to thrive and create the art that decorates Cathedrals. Material remains of the Passion of the Christ are still very much in vogue, or I guess you have never been to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem.. or any other Christian Holy place. Let aside the other religions out there.
Asserting a date IS evidence, to debunk false claims with regard to history. Providing proof especially from a primary source, is solidifying that claim.. that the previous person was wrong in their assumptions. You want me to prove that the Shroud is from the time of Jesus.. Well hold on while I hop over to Turin, acquire a special license and test it myself.. Laughs! You got some group of people who tested it and claim to have found that it was from the late middle ages, and you got an other group of people who tested it and claim that the previous group was wrong because it tested a patch that was sown in as part of repair.. And these people bicker with each other, just like Ronaldo fans vs Messi fans. Both sides claim to provide evidence, both sides open websites and write articles on their findings.. and you want me to prove something to you, as if somehow my entire credibility is at stake? Laughable.
Besides.. What if the Shroud of Turin is fake? Would that prove anything to assert Atheism over Christianity? Absolutely not. What if the Shroud of Turin is indeed real, and it's the one stolen from Constantinople? Would you become a Christian and Atheism would collapse?! Absolutely not. But I care about more than bringing you back to the straight path of our Lord Jesus Christ, is when people write about something, that they know what they are writing about.. and not making themselves look like fools to more seasoned eyes. I cannot bring you to Christianity, aside from the fact I am not a theologian (I do know a lot of factual information on the religion), I don't care to labor and spend countless of hours arguing with you to win you over. I don't get extra "brownie points" in Paradise for arguing with Atheists online and winning a conversion. That religion would be Islam, they love converts and conversions. If you wish to believe in Jesus Christ and when your mindset and heart is ready to believe in his words, and follow his teachings, you will come running yourself. If not.. Believe me, none of us care.. Except for Christ.. But even he gives room for you to freely choose. Though as a Christian, I can tell you I am quite happy where I am. Having seen and experienced things, of a massive difference, to your life style and philosophy. I can tell you with absolute certainty.. It's good to be a Christian. And of course without a shadow of a doubt, I believe that Jesus Christ is risen.. and I do believe that Shroud is his, and ought to be returned either to the Patriarch of Constantinople or to the Patriarch of Jerusalem.. where it belongs. Not in the hands of the heretical and schismatic Roman Catholics, who obviously desecrate the relic. Besides, do you know many names of people that were crucified in Jerusalem and whom people claim to have Resurrected?! Nope, you don't. You couldn't toss me one name, not even by pure trolling. Hell, those scientists that claimed it's a forgery can't even reproduce it themselves. I have seen some attempts and laughed pretty hard, as they don't even come close.. Not to mention the negative image. So.. yeah, they cannot faithfully reproduce the forgery with modern technology, they claim some illiterate Frank created it, at a time when the hundred years war was ravaging France, at a time when 80% of the Frankish population couldn't read nor write, at a time when they burned Joan of Arc at the stake.. as a witch. You people got jokes! Besides like I keep repeating.. most of you don't know history, neither the conditions of Medieval Western Europe.
Say what you want, but I proved what I came to say. Time for you atheists to start proving claims. I'm a pay for play institution, offer up something from my many questions to get some answers.
@ UA
Try reading the Pardoners Tale...The contemporary evidence for the sale of indulgences and the visiting of shrines containing items from the true cross, the shroud, nails of christ, roman spears yadda yadda..
You try and change the argument by saying that "I came to this forum to specifically reply to a person who inaccurately claimed the history of the Shroud prior to 1350 is non-existent when your OP header is quite clear your reasons for for writing...and in error.
Regarding evidence for the other shrouds...they are all mentioned in medieval documents...shrouds at Milan, Lodz, Nice, Aix-la-Chapelle and Besançon, among others. Lets not forget the facecloth in Spain....
So time for you to prove your OP...that the shroud you revere is evidence for the resurrection, crucifixion and burial of the jesus figure described in the gospels,
Pay and display.
"Regarding evidence for the other shrouds...they are all mentioned in medieval documents...shrouds at Milan, Lodz, Nice, Aix-la-Chapelle and Besançon, among others."
Since you have evidence of other shrouds, perhaps you could toss me a few sources as in names of people writing on it, codex numbers, and or quotes.. etc.. Prove your claim, with evidence and not mere a vague regurgitation of what you read online, on some website. Thanks in advance.
"Lets not forget the facecloth in Spain...."
I am very aware of the facecloth in Spain.. What about it? It's one of the 22 looted relics the Frankish Latin Emperor of Constantinople (Baldwin II) sent in shipments to France. To finance his Latin (Roman Catholic) state against the Empire of Nicaea.. A series of conflicts which he lost, along with Constantinople on July 25th 1261. What of it? What does the Mandylion have anything to do with the Syndonium? Is that what you are claiming? That they are related or perhaps the same object? The Mandylion was stored at Church of the Theotokos of Pharos, not St. Mary at the Blachernae, unlike the Shroud. The Mandylion as it's name indicates.. handkerchief.. was not involved in any way what so ever in the burial of Jesus. Though it did contain the image of the face of Christ only.. hence the confusion among people.
"You try and change the argument by saying that "I came to this forum to specifically reply to a person who inaccurately claimed the history of the Shroud prior to 1350 is non-existent when your OP header is quite clear your reasons for for writing...and in error."
My OP header? I assure you, I did not initiate this thread. Are you confused about that as well? But yes all my posts, and what I have been writing all this time is specifically for this thing, prior evidence of the Shroud.
Jesus in the New Testament specifically told his disciples not to tell anyone about the miracles he had done, as he supposedly wanted people to follow him for the things he said and for his death on the cross.
Can you give your sources regarding: "Sources mention and describe it as back as the 2nd century AD"?
@UA
Oh like you have evidenced your claims? The ones you just read on some website? Please give me cutations and evidence and I will reciprocate ...and the shroud housed in Lodz I have seen with mine two eyes. Citation enough for you? It is of course a copy....but many theists like yourself go there to venerate it.
If you do not know the Besancon Shroud then you know fuck all about the alleged histories of the Turin Shroud. Do some reading you arrogant jerk. I gave you the clues now you go open your sad fucking eyes.
And try the Nun's Priest's Tale after you have read the Pardoners. Interesting insight into medieval church practices. God knows you need some self reflection.
Bravo, he breezes in here hurling abuse, then gets all fucking precious when someone points and laughs had his risible gullible superstitious guff.
The provenance of the other fakes is no more a compelling argument for this nonsense than the provenance of the original fake. You can demonstrate no evidence for anything supernatural, QED. Just like every other gullible fool who comes in here making these risible grandiose claims.
'Nobody in this sub gave me a convincing reason why the Shroud is not evidence of the resurrection of Jesus'
You mean nobody proved a negative? You don't say? Here let me tell you how it actually works.
You have to prove it is what it is claimed to be first and foremost. By which I mean you have to prove that it is in fact the burial shroud of Jesus.
Why do you have to do that?
Because holding up and saying 'prove it's not' is just burden of proof shifting. It's not up to us to prove anything, you're the one making a claim, you have to prove it.
Looking back, there seems to be some confusion among you. Let me help you understand better.
I did not initiate this thread, I found it yesterday in a google search and opened an account to answer to one person about what I keep talking about. Evidence of the Shrouds existence before 1350. I proved my point, with the exception of Cognostic, who held a discussion, the rest ask the same thing over and over. You ask me to prove something, that you asked the OP not me.. and you keep repeating yourselves, thinking I am the OP. I am not the OP. Having past dealings with Atheists, I can tell you this.. You ask for proof, upon proof.. yet you make no attempt to offer any proof yourselves for your beliefs and point of views. Half of you taunt and provoke, the other half regurgitates the same arguments without offering proof themselves. You are not Helen of Troy, the whole world does not revolve around you. In a discussion, you exchange points and ideas. The discussion flows, agreements or disagreements.. Some of you cannot hold a normal discussion, without regurgitating the same over and over, demanding proof and avoiding offering proof yourselves to back up your statements.. Many of which are ridiculous or blatantly wrong. Yes, history is a science, hence I can prove you are wrong. It's not a belief system, it's not an ideology. It has facts and evidence. I proved what I came here to say. Your questions on proof are directed to the wrong person.. Those are my thoughts for now.
If the bible mentions an object e.g. such as the cross Jesus was allegedly crucified on, and then centuries later, there are scattered mentions of people claiming to have that cross...it does not mean that they in fact have that cross. It can only be said that it is an account of a time when people were capable of venerating objects of supposed religious significance.
edit: typo
In the case of the True Cross that can very well be true, as the Cross is not one piece but many fragments were taken off. This happened after the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius defeating the Sassanian Persians, who invaded the Empire and took the True Cross from it's resting place in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in 614. In 629 the True Cross was returned to Jerusalem in 629. Historians (modern and past) claim multiple small fragments were taken off, but others claim, the entire Cross was taken apart and the pieces scattered.. As to avoid the entire piece from ever falling again into the hands of infidels. The piece that was lost at the Battle of Hattin, was not the entire Cross but a fragment, put into a wooden cross and covered. There is some truth in your first part of the reply.. Some pieces may be original pieces of the Cross, others cannot be. A lot of things are also done to divert attention. Proving the authenticity of a relic in Christianity, requires the performance of miracles by that relic.. if it fails that test, it is not real.. But that is dwelling deeper into Christianity, than most Atheists can handle. However, I don't believe that you have been over to Europe or the Middle East to see with your very own eyes, that people still venerate objects of religious significance.. Exactly as they worshiped them in the middle ages.
Atheists lack a belief in the existence of gods. That does not mean that they would necessarily believe a relic to be false.
I do not dispute that religious people still venerate relics - I was merely pointing out that any historical account referring to such relics must be understood in that context.
edit:typo
That is fine with me, I have absolutely no problem with your belief on this matter. In fact, I partially accept it. As I do accept there are forgeries and claims of originals.. Either deliberately done, or by believing in it due to it being passed down to later generations. I never denied that from the beginning. The world would be really dull if we all thought the same, wouldn't it?
The real issue is whether or not a person believes the supernatural claims associated with the object.
Non-Christians do not believe in the New Testament accounts of Jesus' life, and are not going to be more inclined to believe in the supernatural claims they make because of relics that are claimed to date from that time.
It's true. I have a piece of the cross myself, I even have a certificate of authenticity from the seller, lovely chap. I can let you have it with the certificate for $150000. No true believer would turn that down.
I also have a used condom Jesus used on Mary Magdalene, I can throw that in for an extra $5? No certificate of authenticity sadly, so you get a bargain price.
@UneducatedAtheistsIn: 629 the True Cross was returned to Jerusalem
That's not the start of the story. The Empress Helena (mother of Constantine the Great) visited the Holy Land around 328 in search of the cross, and surprise, surprise, found not just the cross but also the nails, and Jesus' tunic. Do you really believe any of this stuff?
There are bits of the cross, nails, the INRI plaque, and other supposed relics all over the placed. I've seen one of several so-called "Holy Lances" in Vienna.
I never said that was the start of the story. I merely offered the two prevalent explanations on why there are so many pieces of the True Cross.. the event I described with Emperor Heraclius is totally unrelated to the discovery of the True Cross by the mother of Emperor Constantine the Great. And yes, I absolutely believe St. Helena's discovery of the cross, the account, everything.
"However, I don't believe that you have been over to Europe or the Middle East to see with your very own eyes, that people still venerate objects of religious significance.. Exactly as they worshiped them in the middle ages."
Proving absolutely nothing about the validity of the belief. Also worshipped has two p's in it. I'm not going to miss this moron at all.
History isn't a science, and whilst atheists undoubtedly hold beliefs, atheism isn't one of them, and only a moron who can't use a fucking dictionary would not know this.
You have demonstrated not one shred of evidence for anything supernatural here, as is the case with all the other apologists who've made the same risible claims about this faked piece of cloth they worship.
No one has asked for proof, it's generally theists who use the word proof as they are so woefully ill informed they don't understand what constitutes objective evidence, or that the word proof is subjective.
The last part of your post is too stupid to warrant a response, and I'm starting to think you are as well.
"Those are my thoughts for now."
No those are your blinkered arrogant ignorant ravings, you've posted nothing that comes close to indicating cogent thought here.
Laughs! It takes someone really challenged to come up with a statement like this.
"And whilst atheists undoubtedly hold beliefs, atheism isn't one of them, and only a moron who can't use a fucking dictionary would not know this."
Hey moron, the word atheist is purely a Greek word.. άθεος.. Now let me teach your something that you probably didn't know. A in Greek is an affix that denotes denial, and theos.. Θεός.. is God. Someone who lacks belief in God. Hence Atheism is a belief, by the very original definition. What do you all have in common in this forum? A lack of belief in God(s). Might as well call yourselves a primitive God less religion, or syndicate.. since you hate the world religion so much. But what does any of that have to do with my posts.. Absolutely nothing, as always Sheldon is as irrelevant as his barbarian ancestors. Pretends to be smart and relevant, defines his entire worldview and belief in a lack of belief on a word my ancestors created.. Then lectures me on dictionaries, as if his dirty fucking barbarian, low IQ, shit eating ancestors, learned how to read and write before the enlightenment.. Rich!
Do you believe that our dirty fucking barbarian, low IQ, shit eating ancestors were made in the image of god?
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