A Religious Encyclopaedia (Vol. I, p. 613): "The days of creation were creative days, stages in the process, but not days of twenty-four hours each." - Edited by P. Schaff, 1894.
In a modern dictionary a day is defined as a period of twenty-four hours as a unit of time, reckoned from one midnight to the next, corresponding to a rotation of the earth on its axis. Also a particular period of the past; an era.
The Seventh Day Of Rest Continues Today
Hebrews 4:1-10 (KJV) - Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
The Hebrew word yohm translated day is used like this in the Bible.
1. The period of light, daylight. Proverbs 4:18.
2. The 24-hour period, day and night. - Genesis 7:17.
3. Any period of time characterized by certain events which may be time in general; a long time; an entire period under consideration; a particular season or time of any extraordinary event. (William Wilson's "Old Testament Word Studies." Some example of these are listed below.
a. Summer and winter. Passing seasons. Zechariah 14:8.
b. A "day" as being many days. Ezekiel 38:14, 16 (Compare Proverbs 25:13 and Genesis 30:14).
c. A thousand years or a watch in the night consisting of four hours. Psalm 90:4 (Compare 2 Peter 3:8, 10).
d. The "day" of salvation spanning thousand of years. Isaiah 49:8.
e. Judgment "Day" lasting many years. Matthew 10:15 / 11"22-24.
f. A mans lifetime being a day. Noah's day and Lot's day.
g. The division of that "day" as in terms such as "in the morning or dawn of his life," and "in the evening or sunset of his life." Luke 17:26, 28. The Jerusalem Bible.
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This is the same old argument. If the text does not mean a day in that part of Genesis, then it shouldn't be translated into a day; yet that is how it is translated by modern translators. Which implies:
1) modern translators don't know what fuck they are doing
2) modern translators are involved in a conspiracy
Which is it (or some other explanation I missed)?
Anyway this is why I dismiss all arguments based on 'translation from Hebrew'; we are told it is the word of god, then in the very next breath the believers start trying to change it.
Nyarlathotep,
It isn't changing it, did you read the Encyclopedia of Religion reference? It is changing what you traditionally thought it meant, and you dismiss the arguments because its easier for you to do that than change what you believe.
Think about it. Judgment day, is not a day long. Moses' day, was not a day long.
The encyclopedia of religion is, therefore, a book of factual material and indisputable?
Now I know you're not too sharp.
Pitar The Self Proclaimed God Emperor Of All Wisdom: The encyclopedia of religion is, therefore, a book of factual material and indisputable?
Now I know you're not too sharp.
Pathway Machine: Wow, that was an impressive refutation. How come atheists are so stupid that way? They think that if they are a smart ass, and simply dismiss any challenge to their rigid and moronic beliefs, then they can keep on feeling that warm and fuzzy false sense of intellectual superiority?
Evolution is rife with it. The downfall of true science. The Museum Of History is the temple of the quasi intellectual elite and it's full of lies.
@ Pathway Machine.....
or Raymond ..... or Ray........ or Raymond Sheen..... or Daystar...
Nice display of semantic gynastics ...... just a little wobble on the dismount .
So ,so much effort expended in a fruitless attempt to re-define the word "day".
Or Earthling . . . Earthling IV . . . Dr. Bill Egan . . . David Henson . . . DLH . . . Theoretical Skeptic . . . Greasus Chrysler . . .
The real name is David Henson, you can reach me at 1-317-223-6552. What's your name and number, coward?
You know that this is a violation. you cannot ask someone to post private information about themselves. It is a childish act.
Wow a day could mean anything I guess. So using that as the measuring stick to define the bible anything could mean anything. Like eyewitness accounts could mean the hearsay it really is. It just makes the bible even more subjective that it already is. 19th century so-called experts redefining the bible so it fits into what the world was in the 19th century. Just like today when bullshit artist creationist redefine things and use pseudo-science to justify things that are so obviously false.
mykckob: Wow a day could mean anything I guess.
PM: No. A day could mean the daylight hours, like we say, or the 24 hour day, like we say, or any period of time in the past or given period within a narrative, an era, like we and the dictionary say. It isn't difficult.
Look it's simple and YOU are the one not getting it. The bible says god took seven days to do ....whatever. Millennials later someone comes along and redefines day so it fits a narrative. You don't see a problem with that?
I understand the use of "day" in the English language. "Back in the day..." "In my day..." etc...so on and so forth.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1
In Genesis the use of day is explicit. A day is a day, not an era, or an arbitrary period of time. It is only much later when creationist were trying to combat the flaw in the story that they redefined "day" to mean what they wanted.
It's the fact that the definition was changed and re-suited. Now you come along and defend this redefinition, as if it was always meant to be that way. As far as I can determine the definition of a "day" was changed as late as the Scopes trials around 1925 by William Jennings Bryant, because Clarence Darrow had trapped him in examination. Maybe you're right, that it was redefined in 1849. I couldn't find any evidence to support that claim.
At any rate you and no one can just redefine the term "day" and make it anything you want.
I am quite sure that 200+ years ago when people spoke of a day they most assuredly meant a 24 hour period. The infallible bible would have certainly referred to a "time" and not a day, if it meant a time instead of meaning a day. Or is the bible wrong?
Any of you guys read that dictionary definition where day means a particular period of the past or an era? Consider any of the scriptures where its used accordingly? Consider that the seventh day continued in King David's day (Psalm 95:11) and in Paul's day, thousands of years later, and continues to this day? I got more reasons for you coming, just a little busy today.
This is a case of indoctrination, very difficult to dissuade.
Claiming that your god is so incompetent to use a word that could mean many things does not make your case more credible.
You just ADD to the list of attributes he has:
Unbelievably Incompetent in communication.
Which unfortunately for you, doesn't make it more believable but more impossible.
Jeff: Claiming that your god is so incompetent to use a word that could mean many things does not make your case more credible.
You just ADD to the list of attributes he has:
Unbelievably Incompetent.
Which unfortunately for you, doesn't make it more believable but more impossible.
PM: Jeff . . . he used it the way the Hebrew language used the term which is the same way we use the corresponding term in modern English. The only thing preventing you from grasping such a simple thing is that you've always thought of it one way instead of the way it meant.
Remember this has no significant bearing on anything because at Genesis 1:1 the Hebrew perfect state was used, which means the heavens and earth were already complete. The days of creation followed some time later, after the heavens and earth were complete.
"he used it the way the Hebrew language used the term"
I am sorry, you keep claiming he is god, but when it comes to your judgment of him you keep treating him like a flawed human.
You ignore his attributes completely..
Can you at least try to understand what a theist god means for a change?
Try to put yourself in the position of an omniscient being, and see if you could do things better.
If you know how badly would the word "period" be translated as day for 2000+ years, (the bible never translated it as period,)
would you at least try to be precise?
I defiantly would if I was omniscient.
That just means that I am much more competent then god in communicating.
When people do not understand you, don't you try to be more precise?
I am also pretty sure that any human on earth right now has more than enough common sens to arrive at my same conclusion if he was omniscient.
Your god fails miserably at having basic common sens.
Incompetent is the best thing I could say to describe such a god.
The worst thing, is that he is doing it on purpose to create confusion and division among people trying to decipher his very loose terms.
1000+ versions of Christianity seem to confirm this hypothesis.
(I do not think this but it is infinitely more likely then what you are proposing)
@Jeff,
You are the one adding to his list of attributes. Show me in the Bible where Jehovah God is omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient.
He isn't those things as prescribed by religiosity. He isn't in the Bible, and the Bible is the source of information on the subject.
And when I try to teach you the Bible, you dismiss it out of your own willful ignorance in the guise of his alleged incompetent communication skills. There's no basis for that.
If what I'm saying is wrong. Show me. From the source.
Are you actually saying that the theistic god is not:
omnipresent?
Omniscient?
Omnipotent?
Loving?
which one of those? or all?
I can link after you give me your definition of your god.
But since you are claiming that a theistic god exist, you cannot blame me if i took the standard definition and it does not match yours.
"If what I'm saying is wrong. Show me. From the source."
I will but first, tell me the definition of your god please and we can proceed from there.
Jeff: Are you actually saying that the theistic god is not:
omnipresent?
PM: That's correct, he is not, according to the Bible. He has a fixed position in Heaven, and he is said to be in various places at various times, not all places at all times. If you go to Hell (Hebrew Sheol) his is there in the sense that he keeps his eye on it, but he isn't everywhere all at once.
Jeff: Omniscient?
PM: In a sense, but not in the religious sense. He doesn't know what you are doing or thinking at all times. He didn't know, for example, if the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were behaving as bad as the righteous people surrounding them were telling him in prayer, so he sent his angels to see. He didn't know immediately that Adam had taken of the fruit. He didn't know immediately that Cain Killed Abel. There are other examples.
Jeff: Omnipotent?
PM: Again, no, not in the religious sense. Can God do anything? God can't lie. He can do whatever he needs to do within the limits of his sense of justice, laws, principles etc.
Think of the term omnivorous, does it mean that an omnivorous animal can eat everything? Like, space and time, or nuclear submarines?
Jeff: Loving?
PM: Well, of course he is. Though sometimes that means he has to do some unfortunate things to protect his creation.
Jeff: But since you are claiming that a theistic god exist, you cannot blame me if i took the standard definition and it does not match yours.
PM: Don't put your trust in the standard definition or my definition, but rather the Bible definition.
Jeff: I will but first, tell me the definition of your god please and we can proceed from there.
PM: Definition? Could you tell me the definition of your mother, brother, sister, wife or child? Any one of those will do.
so you agree with me that if a god is Omniscient Omnipotent then he must be evil?
Why all the resistance to logic if that is not the description of your god?
So let me get this strait, you do not know the attributes of your god right?
does it matter if I show passages where they claim that god is omniscient, that he can do anything?
I can but i do not think you would be honest about it and try to say that it's the interpretation and what not.
so instead going through a debate on interpretations, I will stick to the things you agree about the nature of god.
"Jeff: Loving?
PM: Well, of course he is."
We are judged by our actions. right?
Find me a single instance where god made an action which is considered loving?
A day means a 24 hour period in the modern era. The purpose of biblical translation is to translate from an old language into a modern language people actually use. The modern translators (who know more about this than you or I ever will) translate those verses to the modern word day. If it didn't mean a 24 hour period, then they wouldn't use the word day. Translation arguments are just an example of special pleading. If you are willing to play that game, you can make anything say anything you want, so it is pointless. If we can't trust the modern translators in this verse (or any other) then we shouldn't trust them at all and just discard the English bible.
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mykckob4 - "Wow a day could mean anything I guess. So using that as the measuring stick to define the bible anything could mean anything. Like eyewitness accounts could mean the hearsay it really is. It just makes the bible even more subjective that it already is."
exactly!
Nyarlathotep,
Alright then, how do you explain these two scriptures. The first where "day" means a few hours, and the second where "day" means all six days combined?
Genesus 1:5a: And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night.
Genesis 2:4: This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.
Pathway Machine - 'The first where "day" means a few hours'
Funny I don't remember reading that in the bible. Oh let me guess, if you translate 'a' as 'b', and 'b' as 'c', then black = white right?
-------------------------------------------------
Pathway Machine - "the second where "day" means all six days combined?"
It seems pretty obvious that is a referee to the first day. Genesis 2:4 is where the retelling of the creation story begins. This is the exact verse where the first boundary between two documents fall. It is funny you would choose a boundary verse...
P.M......
If the original text uses the word "day" but in the sense of ,say "in my fathers day" then surely any competent translator would alter the translation to "in my fathers time" or re-phrase the sentence to reflect its true meaning.....
No... Im pretty sure that when the translators wrote "day"....what they actually meant was "DAY",.
Whatever your 19th century Encyclopedia says.......
watchman,
Perhaps they did, after all traditionally it was thought that the creation took place in 144 hours, six literal days. That doesn't mean anything, really, except that they were imperfect, they didn't know any better. Or maybe they did, Day fits. Just because traditionally you are accustomed to one way doesn't mean it's correct, and you are also limiting the use of the word day as well. So my bet is the translators knew what they were talking about and the Clergy and you . . don't.
Hold on....let me get this straight....
"So my bet is the translators knew what they were talking about "....
So are you saying they knew what they were talking about so by using the word "day" they meant "day(24 hrs)" ...or are you saying by using the word "day"...they meant "something other than day (not 24 hrs)" .... in which case ..in what way did they know what they were talking about ?????
@watchman,
I'll provide this for you again. Maybe you missed it.
In a modern dictionary a day is defined as a period of twenty-four hours as a unit of time, reckoned from one midnight to the next, corresponding to a rotation of the earth on its axis. Also a particular period of the past; an era.
I explained to you that Genesis was explicit and didn't use the word "day" in any connotation that referred to a time or era.
mykckob: I explained to you that Genesis was explicit and didn't use the word "day" in any connotation that referred to a time or era.
PM: You did? You know, stating something and explaining it are not necessarily the same. The creation account is talking about periods or epochs, or eras in which the various stages of creation occurs, as told to Moses' much later.
I specifically provided a link that quoted Genesis verbatim. The context of Genesis does not refer to a time or an era. I didn't just "state it", I provided the direct quote from Genesis. I guess I need a grammar and linguistics professor to explain to you connotation and context.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1
Here's the link again. No epoch or reference to a time or era. No eluding that "day" means anything than "day."
@mykckob,
You should have looked a little harder at Bible Gateway. The Encyclopedia entry for day on Genesis 1.
DAY (יﯴמ֒, H3427; ἡμέρα, G2465). The Bible includes a number of different uses of the word. 1. It often refers to the hours of daylight between dawn and dusk (Gen 1:5; 8:22; Acts 20:31; etc.). In OT times this was divided into morning, noon, and evening (Ps 55:17), or the time of the day might be indicated by the use of such expressions as sunrise, heat of the day, cool of the day, sunset, and the like. The Babylonians reckoned their days from sunrise to sunrise; the Romans, from midnight to midnight; the Greeks and the Jews, from sunset to sunset. The first mention in the Bible of a twelve-hour day is found in John 11:9. The division of the day into twelve-hour periods came from the Babylonians.
2. The concept of a legal or civil day, the period between two successive sun risings, goes back to the creation story (Gen 1:14, 19) and is found throughout the Bible (Luke 9:37; Acts 21:26). The only day of the week to which the Jews gave a name was the Sabbath; they used ordinal numbers for the days, although the day before the Sabbath was often called the day of Preparation (Matt 27:62; Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:31, 42). The night was subdivided into watches—first, middle, and morning. The Romans had four watches. Acts 23:23 shows that the night also was divided into twelve hours.
3. The word often is used in the sense of an indefinite period of time: the whole creative period (Gen 2:4), day of God’s wrath (Job 20:28), day of trouble (Ps 20:1), day of the Lord of hosts (Isa 2:12), day of salvation (2 Cor 6:2) day of Jesus Christ (Phil 1:6).
The pl. is sometimes used in the sense of “time of,” as in the “days of Abraham” (Gen 26:18), the “days of Noah” (Matt 24:37), or of the span of human life, as in “the days of Adam...were eight hundred years” (Gen 5:4), “I will lengthen your days” (1 Kings 3:14).
The eternal God is called “the Ancient of Days” (Dan 7:9, 13).
4. Many times the word is used fig. When Jesus said, “We must work the works of him who sent me, while it is day; night comes, when no one can work” (John 9:4), “day” means the time of opportunity for service. Jesus said that because His disciples saw “the light of this world” as they walked “in the day” (John 11:9), and He Himself claimed to be “the light of the world” (John 8:12). Paul called Christians “sons of light and sons of the day,” contrasting them with those who were “of the night or of darkness” (1 Thess 5:5). When Paul wrote, “the night is far gone, the day is at hand” (Rom 13:12), he meant by “day” the time of eschatological salvation. There will be perpetual day in the final state of perfection (Rev 21:25).
5. There are special days set aside for and belonging in a peculiar sense to Jehovah, such as the Sabbath day (Gen 2:3; Exod 20:8-11), the Passover (Exod 12:14), and the Day of Atonement (Lev 16:29-31). On these days no labor was to be done and special rituals were observed.
6. In both Testaments is frequent mention of “the day of the Lord” and similar terms used to designate it. This is not a particular day, but a period of time at the end of history when God will bring judgment upon godless peoples and vindicate His name (Isa 2:12; 13:9; Ezek 7:7, 8; Matt 24; 25; 2 Thess 2:1-12). After this supernatural intervention of God in history, He will set up His eternal kingdom (Rev 20-22), and all things will be consummated in Christ (Eph 1:10).
7. The phrase, “the last days,” seems to include in its broadest meaning the whole period from the cross to the Second Advent (Acts 2:17; 2 Tim 3:1; Heb 1:2; 2 Peter 3:3, 4).
Bibliography Crem (1892), 275-277; BDB (1952), 398-401; O. Cullmann, Christ and Time (1950); Arndt (1957), 346-348; W. G. Kummel, Promise and Fulfilment (1961); TWNT, II (1964), 243-253.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NIV
All these interpretations does not apply to the "day" that we are talking about imply because the text in question doesn't elude to a different connotation or meaning that "day."
Besides the redefinition of day by creationist was never applied to this part of Genesis until AFTER the creationist discovered that they had a credibility issue. Say far after the 1700's when everyone just assumed that the bible stated that their god created the earth in six days and rested on the seventh.
It's funny how nowadays creationist will apply literal interpretation to the bible unless it doesn't fit with their agendas, then they start going far afield of the text and apply speculation like it is fact.
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