Just trying to get other ideas on this. How long do you think it will take America to be run as a purely secular society at the government level ? I live in a New England state so we have reached that at state level. But federally, the government seems to be very heavily influenced by funtamentalist christianity, unfortunately. Washington seems to forget about any state outside of the bible belt. These religious states even collect more from Washington. At the same time, they whine more. In New Hampshire, we contribute to the federal government than we get back. I am sick of these religious nut cases.
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Who knows? I mean, there's a lot of surgery to be done to arrive at that separation. What will they replace "In God we trust" with on our currency? It's in the details and will take billions to rid the Fed of its umbilical to the supernatural. Judge Scalia's death (SCOTUS) was perceived by the christian self-righteous as a blow to America's morality and ethics in the Judicial branch. That kind of perception is a force to be reckoned with and no simple milk-toast dismissal will work. Those cats seriously believe guidance can only "come from above".
Also, as our good buddy Isaac quips -
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov, Newsweek (21 January 1980)
He stoically and with a secular eye plants one right on the kisser with that observation. It isn't aimed at one party or the other but it certainly thrives on their mutual denial. By that I mean that the secular side needs to get its house in respectable order before they can expect to enter into serious discussions about the separation of church from state. That, and time. Lot's of it.
How could I not have heard that quote from my favorite author before?! I really need to get out more....
It is ironic that the red states get more back from the federal government than they pay. It is not just you NH. Here in CA we ship out more cash to Washington DC than we get back.
When do we go secular? I'm just hoping it doesn't get worse.
No offense to New England, but I am fine with CA succeeding. If OR and WA want to come along that is fine too.
Isn't it ironic that a nation that grew out of a revolution against a god-annointed king and established church has morphed into a god-addled theocracy, while countries that remain under the divine monarchy--the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand--are becoming more and more secular. Perhaps you should apply to rejoin the British Commonwealth.
Our news is filled with stories about a dysfunctional soap opera family inhabiting Buckingham Palace. Every time there's a divorce or scandal in that household, we're all reminded about what an idiot god was for choosing them to rule over us. I predict a huge surge of atheism and the final collapse of the Church of England when the present queen dies and the crown frog turns into King Charles dei gratia.
Unfortunately you can't blame god for Donald, Dubya, Jimmy, Dicky or Jack. You elected them.
Interesting thread started here. I don't spend much time thinking about politics, fundamentalism or that sort of thing. I am certainly not opposed to a secular government. I do think government should be founded on a bed of ethics, morality and intellectual integrity. I find it difficult to want or desire a secular government that is not founded on objective ideals.
Here I will cite a few leaders who lead a secular government that was not founded on objective ideals:
Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,00 people murdered
Jozef Stalin (USSR 1932-39 only) 15,000,000 people murdered
Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000 people murdered
Kim II Sung (North Korea 1948-94) 1.6 million people murdered
Tito (Yugoslavia 1945-1987) 570,000 people murdered
Suharto (Communists 1967-66) 500,000 people murdered
Ante Pavelic (Croatia 1941-45) 359,000 people murdered
Ho Chi Min (Vietnam 1953-56) 200,000 people murdered
Vladimir Ilich Lenin (USSR, 1917-20) 30,000 people murdered
Adolf Hitler (Germany 1939-1945) 12,000,000 people murdered
Just my 2 cents.
@MM12
The secularity of some of those leaders is debatable. Here's a list of leaders who were definitely not secular and still managed to rack up some fairly impressive death and misery scores.
Generalissimo Franco
Richard the Lionheart
Henry VIII
Charlemagne
Louis XIV
Ferdinand III/Isabella I
Charles I (England)
Kaiser Wilhelm ll
Hong Xiuquan (leader of the Taiping Rebellion, younger brother of Jesus)
How about this. These people were assholes.
@MM12
"How about this. These people were assholes."
So the common denominator is arseholes, and the secular/non-secular distinction is irrelevant? That's what I've always thought, too. I wonder why theists keep playing the Hitler/Stalin/Mao card.
I like how you didn't explicitly say "Atheist", as Adolf Hitler was Catholic and I believe Stalin converted to some brand of Catholicism later in life. As for the rest, I'd have to look them up. But your main contenders that you listed were most certainly religious.
@Tieler
I hear that a lot. Yep Hitler was raised a Catholic... but was clearly not. Stalin... was a theist... but separated from that.
Please present evidence that either of these were theist at the time they killed millions of people.
What I would encourage you to do instead is understand why these people placed no value on human life. Closer to home. Ask yourself why you put value on human life. State your answer below.
The old "Atheist Atrocities Fallacy", what a surprise...
Just the facts.
A response to the the fallacy that "atheists are the only ones that value human dignity and freedom" argument.
I'll add. My opinion is just as valid as anyone elses on this thread.
@ MM12,
Do you think there is a difference between someone who is an asshole in the name of their religion, who does asshole acts in the name of their religion and someone who is just an asshole?
And, btw, yes, your opinion is no more nor less valid than anyone else's. However, what you call facts, may not be.
"Just the facts."
Really...? Facts..?
Then these will fit right in..........
Adolf Hitler: Confidence in God
Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1
Adolf Hitler: Fulfilling God's Mission
What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8
Adolf Hitler: Acting According to God's Will
I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2
Adolf Hitler: Doing Justice to God
To do justice to God and our own conscience, we have turned once more to the German Volk.
- Adolf Hitler in speech about the need for a moral regeneration of German, February 10, 1933
Adolf Hitler: When We Appear Before God...
We don't ask the Almighty, 'Lord, make us free!" We want to be active, to work, to work together, so that when the hour comes that we appear before the Lord we can say to him: 'Lord, you see that we have changed.' The German people is no longer a people of dishonor and shame, of self-destructiveness and cowardice. No, Lord, the German people is once more strong in spirit, strong in determination, strong in the willingness to bear every sacrifice. Lord, now bless our battle and our freedom, and therefore our German people and fatherland.
- Adolf Hitler, Prayer, May 1, 1933
Adolf Hitler: Fighting for the Lord's Work
I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work.
- Adolf Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936
“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”
( Adolf Hitler, from John Toland [Pulitzer Prize winner], Adolf Hitler, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507. )
More...?
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/08/23/list-of-hitler-quotes-he-w...
http://ahquotes.tripod.com/
@ miracleman12
- "Just the facts."
I have to say that your view on what is "facts" seems very skewed.
- "A response to the the fallacy that "atheists are the only ones that value human dignity and freedom" argument."
I don't see anyone here claiming that. Could perhaps your view of atheists be biased?
- "I'll add. My opinion is just as valid as anyone elses on this thread."
Sure. I didn't claim that it wasn't, so I don't know where you got that "accusation" from.
Everyone else also have the right to speak up against arguments and opinions, such as your Atheists Atrocities fallacy argument above, or do we not?
Adolph Hitler makes a fascinating study. I knew he was baptized catholic in Austria. Beyond that comes some studying to do. It is said by some that he got into Norse spirituality. As for catholics my experience with them personnaly has been good. I must admit, i am even married to a catholic whose parents were young adults in the Third Reich itself. Life has very many interesting twists and turns.
Hilter was a catholic. Many of the SS were catholic. We know that the belt buckle of nazi german troops said [in German] God With Us.
I have no idea, but the recent election of Mr. T will certainly NOT help