I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed, but religion almost never fully, truly comforts people who go through bad times from what evidence would suggest.
Not really saying atheism is better.... Except that in psychological aspects, it kind of is! Atheists realize that if someone dies, it's a result of biology, or physics working against biology (someone falls from a cliff, for example) and not some deity picking on us. And then there are life's problems.... Poverty, conflict, etc. We realize that we change those things, not some invisible being with infinite powers and whatnot.
Did you lose your new car? Were you paying your bills on time? Logic suggests if you don't, your car gets repossessed.
It's reality, not some man in red pajamas picking on you from the shadows or some 'great deity' who forgot about you, it's just the way things tend to go. There are solutions to problems though, so it's worth investigating solutions rather than talking to a ceiling or crying about how much a god/etc must hate you or blame you for something and take interest in your life.
...Which, considering all things is pretty insignificant. Even without deities, we're only 1/7,500,000,000 lives on the planet considering humans alone. I don't think any deity (if they were real) would have the attention span to punish you about your F-150 debt because you looked at your neighbor's ass one Sunday evening.
For personal loss, people who are highly religious (for example Baptists or Catholics here in the USA) always run to the defense that their religion comforts them, that their god makes them feel better, or loved, and so on and so forth.
From what I have personally witnessed though I'd argue that this is not only untrue, but entirely the opposite of what happens when people depend on religion.
Case #1: A child who lost her mother, deals with homelessness off-and-on, and entirely stays fixed on the fact that she has a mental disorder. Her web pages are filled to the brim with rants about how much god loves her, but otherwise everything she writes is about how depressed, scared, and alone she feels about life... Constant homelessness, missing her deceased mother, etc.
How is this harmful? Her religion tells her that an all-loving, caring Jesus/god combo will get her though life and everything will be peachy. The priests and her religious family will also tell her that her mother is watching over her/in a better place/etc.
Now, how is this harmful? Simple! Telling someone that a loved one is "somewhere else" makes it seem that they're just out of reach. I'd argue that this only increases a person's anxiety, and does nothing to calm it down. Secondly, if this same child was "happy the way god made her" then why does she spend so much time obsessed about how unfair it is to have a disability? In the bible after all, a deaf man complained to the Hebrew god and the same god was infuriated that someone with a disability would dare complain about how they were made.
Case #2: A man who lost his lover. A personal friend of mine, he is obsessed about his girlfriend's death... A devout Catholic, he's certain she's "in purgatory" and that he needs to pray for her. He is also adamant about his god's "plan" and how everything is meant to be a certain way.
This is just ridiculous, because if it was his god's plan, shouldn't he be happy his GF died when she did? Is that not part of the plan? And if he is unhappy, why? If she was a good person, why does he worry about her "purgatory stay", and how come she doesn't get automatic acceptance?
Now, I know what theists would argue: "So not believing in an afterlife, you'd argue it's better just to think that when a loved one is dead, that's it? No soul, no better place to go, just dead meat sacks?"
In short, yes. That's exactly what I'd argue.
Without an afterlife, life itself is dearly precious... It makes a person realize that time with others is precious. My own mother won't live forever, so I know that I should spend time with her and enjoy her company before she's gone.
Secondly, realizing that a person doesn't magically disembody and 'float away' when they die means that there is closure. They're dead. They're not coming back. And you won't see them again which is why a memorial is so important, and remembering the time you spent with them was important.
Also, I find that an afterlife ideology diminishes the value of a person's life. If you know they're not going to a 'heaven' or a 'hell' where people will talk to them, you're more likely to tell their story. More likely to write about them, make a memorial, or to talk about them to other people.
I'm not saying go and tell people they're wrong... Instead I mean to say maybe it's time we begin to ask people why they're so unhappy, when their beliefs say they should be incredibly happy... And maybe people will begin to see how absurd religion really is.
I hope everyone has a good autumn, been a while since I've been on here!
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As a nurse I have witnessed hundreds of people dying in the last 25 years. I do not remember many that were focused on religious matters. I don' t doubt they were religious they were simply dealing with their needs in the here and now. Only one has ever asked me to pray for them. I am led to believe that morphine is a better source of comfort than Jesus.
Good on 'ya! I'm working to become an RN, myself... Good to hear things weren't overdone!
I've run across many medical personnel where I live (MD's included) who wear crucifixes despite the no-necklace hygiene rules for medical facilities... It's silly.
I've actually known many people that have turned to religion when losing loved ones. There was a range of reactions. A couple started hating God. Others became very devote. Though in their devoutness it seemed like they were hiding desperation but what do I know. Your examples seem a wee bit generalized. I personally think it is better to have closure but some people really need that crutch that there is a life after death for their loved ones. It very much depends on the person I think.
There may be some unfair generalization, I'll admit... I'm just basing off of what I've observed among friends personally, as well as people on the street. Though in the future, I should do better about generalizing!
It's definitely more comforting to know biology, age, injury, illness or something else unchangeable was responsible for a death/disability, rather than a divine bestowment, y'know?
Just like a crutch though, it's kind of like drugs... People think something will help when in reality it doesn't solve any problems for them... Even Tylenol, for example... It kills pain, but doesn't heal the injury.
I agree its more like postponing the grieving than anything. Odd thing is, the comfort of heaven for loved ones is one of the few positive qualities I've seen from religion. Yes you don't receive closure and its probably not healthy, but say you lose a child I've seen it help a father so he didn't completely shutdown and he could grieve more at a later time. People do rash things. I worried he might kill himself but religion helped him hang in. Aside from many of religion's bad qualities I can't deny at certain times it must offer a good level of comfort. Now this doesn't work for everyone as I said it may do more harm in some cases. Like you said sometimes people feel like god is punishing you with bad events in your life on purpose if you believe in a grand scheme.
My mother died yesterday at the age of 93. The reality hasn't really sunk in yet. Actually her personality died years ago from severe dementia, but the part of her brain that kept her heart and lungs working lived on. I couldn't do anything for her in those final years except to get her 24-hour care in a specialist nursing home. However, I'm comforted by knowing that all her pain and fear are ended and she is finally at peace. And I'm also comforted by the knowledge that I helped her many times throughout her later years, and I can laugh about some of the crazy things she did before the dementia took her away, even though at the time they caused me a real headache.
If I were a theist, I'd be worried now about whether she was in heaven or hell. I'd also be wondering how she'd cope meeting up with her husbands, since she buried two of them. But most of all I'd be angry and wondering what kind of sick-headed, swinish god would create a disease like dementia to turn people into living vegetables.
I think one of the biggest sources of unhappiness about religion is the cruel and stupid idea that god has a plan and gives people what they deserve. My mother didn't do anything to deserve years of mental and physical decline, ending in a fog of fear and pain with a total loss of memory and personality.
My condolences.
My condolences as well. My grandmother has lung cancer. I don't expect she'll live particularly long. She's taken car of me since I was a teenager. She's more of a mother to me than my real one. I'm not sure what to do myself.
When my mother died a few years ago, she died a bit ahead of time and it was unexpected. I was very very sad, where the worst part was for the fact that she would not get to watch my children grow up, and that they would not have her as a grandmother.
But the fact that I didn't feel any need to deal with any supernatural mystical mumbo jumbo, made it feel a lot less distorted and confusing. There was no worrying or wondering where she going to end up, there was no "purpose" or "reason" for her to die. It was just the unfolding of events in our lives.
You're exactly right, Pragmatic. I don't think I could cope with religious posturing at a time like this. There's no god or satan to blame for my mother's death. It was a combination of events in her brain, combined with the weakness that comes with aging. I'm just glad that she was able to meet her grandchildren, and her great-children, and that they were able to meet her. And she will continue to exist in our memories, and in the stories we share with the younger generation.
This is why I'm happy to be going into medicine, hoping to specialize in geriatrics to learn from the 'best generation' as much as I can!
Once again, sorry for your loss... Be well!
Exactly! But as horrible as it is... We're better for it that we understand it's beyond our control... Life continues.
My father was/is a horrible human being, but I know it's not because of design or 'satanic suggestion', it's because his upbringing was terrible and his own mind scattered.
Makes me value my mom a little more, and like you say unexpected things happen... Never know if/when we'll lose someone!
Oof... Spend some good time with her, and be sure to spend time thinking of things you may want to know about her down the line... If you get the chance, ask her those questions so you'll know!
I wish I had time with my grandfather... He died before I was mature enough to think of better things to ask him about. I'm pretty sad that I didn't get to ask him more about his life... But it's good impetus to encourage other people to ask while they can!
May I too add my condolences ...
Sorry for your loss... My mother is only 67, but she has some serious vascular problems so I'm constantly worried that she's not going to be well for long... I hope you're doing alright!
And I agree, the worst is when people are "punished" for actions (or so theists believe) when others do far worse things and don't get so much as a papercut!
My sympathy
Algebra, my condolences. If my grandchildren care for me half as much as you have cared for your Grammy, I will feel very lucky indeed.
Agreed!
Welcome back NF!
Sorry for your loss, I understand a little of what you say as my mother died from complications of lewy body dementia and it is true that the person you knew and loved died long before their body did. I found reliving the good memories helped a lot.
@Don Logan
It's a cruel way to go. As you say, there are the memories. There are lot of those when someone lives that long.