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Lisa, are you saying that your belief system is that other belief systems “religions” need to be banned. If so are you not holding to the truth of this belief in the same way “religions” do? Are you against freedom of thought?
@AJ777 You are right that I want religion banned. I am all for freedom of thought but religion isn't just thought about, it's acted upon and causes mass problems. Indoctrinating young children being one major problem. I don't have a problem with people believing that the world was created, I have a problem with religion.
@Lisa Williams
What you're saying there is that you'd behave the same way the theists do - you'd ban free speech and punish those who don't agree with you. Atheists shouldn't be doing that, they should be showing the world a better way to live - and complete freedom of thought and expression has to be part of that, or we're just going to make the same mistakes all over again.
Lisa and Keith, can you be more specific in defining what “better” is. What specific religion are we talking about because all of the major religions contain mutually exclusive claims and beliefs. Also, if the religious war objection against specifically Christianity disproves Christianity then it must also call into question Atheism as well, since in the 20th century alone there have been countless millions killed under Atheist regimes examples being Mao Se Tung, Pol Pot, Stalin, Lenin, etc.
Hi, AJ777. The question of Mao, Pot, Stalin, etc. was very recently addressed in another thread:
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/religion-tool-power#co...
These are not examples of Atheist regimes, but of political religion regimes.
@AJ777
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Try reading my other posts. If we atheists aren't careful we're going to make the same mistake as the theists always have. Intolerance and suppression are the evils - not religion per se. If we don't take account of freedom of expression and belief, then the pigs are going to end up indistinguishable from the humans. Try reading George Orwell's Animal Farm.
@Keith Raye I fully understand where you're coming from that we need to be careful and not "make the same mistakes as the theists always have" but I still stand by my opinion that religion should be banned. Perhaps I should make it clear also that when I say religion should be banned, I mean religion being practiced in public e.g. places of worship and religious schools should be banned. It doesn't matter what our morals are when it comes to banning religion - it's inevitable that theists will still exist but they shouldn't be allowed to impose these beliefs on anybody/anything nor demonstrate this belief since religion is evil. I would also like to make it clear that I don't condemn theists for believing that the world was created (in fact, i believe that you don't have to be religious to believe in a creator which, by the way, I do not), I condemn theists for worshippping an evil creator and producing mass divisions in society.
Condemn? I'm sorry, I thought we were trying to avoid theism's pitfalls. To condemn theists is to be no better than the theists that condemn people.
@Discere Condemn has two definitions. The definition i'd be referring to is: express complete disapproval of; censure. This articulates my idea about theists - by openly and voluntarily identifying as a theist, you are stating that you support and worship something evil. I "completely disapprove of" this. I would understand where you're coming from if you thought i was referring to mass genocide but i'm not.
"express complete disapproval of; censure", "........by openly and voluntarily identifying as a theist, you are stating that you support and worship something evil'
Here is my issue:
My best friend of 24 years is a Baptist Christian. I have never condemned him. I would not approve of anyone condemning him, or any members of his congregation (he's a pastor). and would vehemently fight against such a course of action. He has never stated his god to be evil, and as much as it may seem so to me, it would not be right for me, or anyone, to condemn him for that. That, and his congregation and my small meeting group of nearby nonbelievers that I run have even worked together on several occasions to promote acceptance of the LGBTQ community in our area, as well as on several other issues. Yes, I know - theists and non believers working together - wild idea
And one more thing. Going back to this:
"that you support and worship something evil"
A: How can that which does not exist be considered evil?
B: Being a moral nihilist, the words good and evil have little to no relevance or meaning to me.
And when I said condemn before, I meant exactly what you just said. Thence, doing that would make you no better than theists that do it, regardless of how "necessary" you may find it.
@Discere You are entitled to your own view that theists shouldn't be condemned and I don't have a problem with that. I also believe that theists and atheists can work together in most aspects but their views regarding religion definitely clash and can/have caused huge problems, for example, killing solely in the name of religion.
The religious scriptures themselves exist and the descriptions given in these 'holy books' to the supposed creator illustrate a sadistic, torturous and dictatorial God - theists are not only believing these Gods to be true, they're actually praising them.
Also, when you claim to be a "moral nihilist", you had already stated that you believe your friend's God to be evil: "He has never stated his God to be evil, and as much as it may seem so to me" so clearly the concept of 'good' and 'evil' does have a lot of relevance to you.
@Lisa Williams
If you're saying that the teaching of religion as though it were truth - especially when taught in schools - should be banned, then I wholeheartedly agree with you. But if you're saying that religion should be banned period, then I say that's suppressing freedom of thought and choice. And anyway, there's no way you would ever achieve that goal. If history has ever taught us anything, it's that you can't kill an idea.
@Keith Raye Yes, I wholeheartedly believe that the teaching of religion in schools as though it were true should be banned. I also believe that religion should be banned as a whole (which I know you disagree with) but I am also realistic in the sense that I know religion will probably remain with humanity for as long as the human race exists. It's illegal to murder a human in our society but it doesn't mean that murders don't occur - I'd be very silly if I thought so.
Keith, why are intolerance and oppression evil? Angie, it seems like you are saying that Atheism is a religion?
No, not at all! Please, don't put words in my hand that I didn't write... I said those regimes had political religions, therefore, they cannot be considered as atheist regimes.
As I told you, please, read the thread I linked and you'll get more info.
P.S. Keith, why are intolerance and oppression evil? Are you serious???
(edited)
@AJ777
If you had ever been subjected to either of those, you wouldn't have to ask such a bloody stupid question!
But I'll define 'better' for you. 'Better' would be a world in which freedom of choice and expression are not suppressed, a world where women are not subjugated and sidelined, where true equality is upheld as a right. A world where people are not punished for being different. A world in which people don't constantly try to 'convert' others to bolster and their own egos and insecurities. A world in which people try to be less greedy and ambitious at the expense of others.
Keith, I think you may have missed the point of my question. Sorry I wasn’t more clear. How do you justify any moral law, or conduct, or right from wrong in an atheistic worldview? How do you determine what is good or evil? Is it purely opinion? Shouldn’t we be intolerant of evil and isn’t it our duty to be oppressive towards immoral behavior such as child abuse.
@AJ777 Are you claiming that religion is the reason why we can differentiate good from bad? I think it's totally inaccurate to state that moral law can't exist in an "atheistic worldview" and using child abuse as an example is absurd - genital mutilation of baby boys is done solely in the name of religion. If the human race would have been so barbaric without religion, then how are we here right now? Surely we would have killed each other off before religious scriptures were written by men. Even many theists accept that immoral events have occurred in the name of religion.
Lisa, maybe it would help if you defined what you think religion is. I’m not saying that an atheist can’t act morally without God. I am saying that without God we can’t justify our beliefs about what is right or wrong. Why is your opinion right and another’s wrong?
@AJ777 I believe that religion is based entirely on the foundations of a religious scripture. Each and every scripture claims that humanity is inferior but the God described in the scriptures is superior, therefore, we should all worship it and restrict our life choices. Religion, therefore, is the belief that one should abide their life by a religious scripture.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "without God we can't justify our beliefs about what is right or wrong" - how does God justify them? The last time I checked, God thought it was okay to populate the Earth with animals and humans but then drown every single living organism (except from Noah, his close family and some animals) because He realised that he had messed up by creating an 'evil' species - man.
I would argue that my opinion opposes yours in the sense that i disagree with mass divison and the worshipping of an immoral God. You clearly believe that your view is more moral because you are a theist - I beg to differ.
AJ777, you may get the record of mixed cliches in the same thread...
In layman's terms (*), because there must be a dozen of threads on this same topic: Morality does not come from religion. It comes from society. You get your morals from your relatives, friends, school, media, laws, etc.. It changes over time (the difference of humane treatment to minorities are good examples of this), and there are differences among cultures, but not only based on religion.
P.S. And yes, morality is subjective. Mine, yours, and everyone else's. You cherry-pick your moral scale, just as I do.
(*) edited
@Aj777
I'm glad you brought child abuse up because religious institutions, especially the Catholic church, has been responsible for more horrific child abuse than any other cause in history, verbal, physical, emotional and sexual. Say what you like about atheists but WE DON'T DUMP THE BODIES OF DEAD CHILDREN IN CESSPITS.
We don't even know if some of those babies were actually dead when they were dumped. No doubt the forensic pathology reports will tell us eventually.
Lisa and Keith, kind of the same question again. How can theism be evil if it is not true. In an honest atheistic and naturalistic worldview, how can good or evil be anything more than opinion. And why is your opinion that God is evil Lisa more valid or more right than my opinion that God cannot be evil. C.S. Lewis said this “There is no sense in talking of ‘becoming better’ if better means simply ‘what we are becoming’—it is like congratulating yourself on reaching your destination and defining destination as ‘the place you have reached.’”
@AJ777 The actual concept of theism is true since it exists, however, the claims made by theists aren't true. It's the same principle when people claim that homosexuals cause hurricanes - the homophobic people themselves are true but their claims clearly aren't. The ideas of 'good' and 'evil' are solely based on opinion - I claim that the God described by Christianity, for example, is evil because it demands the burning of baby lambs to death (and there are many, many more reasons). You might believe that that is 'good' - perhaps torturing animals satisfies you. I'm sure that it doesn't, I'm just trying to say that the concepts of 'good' and 'evil' are founded on opinion.
So why is your opinion that religion and God are evil more valid or correct than my opinion that the Christian God must exist because such a thing as good and evil exists. If there is one thing that is always morally wrong then God must exist because in order to have a moral law we need a moral law giver.
@AJ777 If God is the "moral law giver", then why does morality have such a large spectrum? If God made man in his image, then surely we would all have the same views on morality. Adam and Eve ate from the same 'fruit of knowledge' hence giving them the same ideas of 'good' and 'evil' yet what can be deemed moral in one society e.g. lashing people as punishment or officially stating that women are half the value of men - is not deemed moral in another society.
It's untrue its creed, their evil means of control are very real, evil meant as what harms others.
God is evil the same way the Joker is: as characters, both are genocidal and sadists.
@AJ777
Your mention of C S Lewis is very apt. Alice In Wonderland couldn't be farther from reality than your 'reasoning'. Theism is evil precisely BECAUSE it's not true but taught - especially to children - as though it were truth.
@AJ777
Let me ask you a simple question. Is immorality evil?
Angie I’m not sure what you meant in the first paragraph of your post. However, harming others is not always evil. Unjustified harm is perhaps what you are referring to. If a criminal was unjustly beating you, you might be happy to see a police officer cause harm to that criminal in order to get him to stop causing you harm. Keith, C.S. Lewis wrote the chronicles or narnia, not Alice in wonderland. He was an atheist who later in life became a Christian partly through the influence of J.R.R Tolkien. My view of evil is that it is not a tangible thing, but rather a lack of good. So an immoral act is evil or lacking good. The question Keith is how do you justify your beliefs about what is good and what is evil without a moral authority?
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