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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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"It is a word salad that lacks substance and is in no way compelling."
Please explain to me if i said anything illogical or impossible to comprehend that would make you say that. Is it not logical to say that we do not see "stuff" popping into existence, because the physics of this universe don't allow it? Your answer to that question is the proof in of itself.
I will say this one last time: pony up the proof. Without it you are wasting my time. Without it, I will ignore you and suspect many others will as well.
Tim - "physics of this universe don't allow it"
who told you that? lol
Sorry let me clarify.....the physics of this universe don't allow incredibly complex objects(iphones, cars, etc.) to spontaneously pop into existence.
I'm so god damn tired of the "something had to make the Universe" argument. Here's the truth as far as science and human logic can put.
The universe, indeed all that is material, began at the Big Bang. If you choose to make up a fantasy story about immaterial and nonexistent beings who existed non-existently before and after the start of existence... You're either a fiction writer, a liar, a follower of an afore mentioned liar taught to be desperate for reasons to exist to the point of gullibility, or possibly mentally ill.
You're an atheist, which is someone who claims there is no god, which means they claim they know EVERYTHING. You're in no place to be calling me false unless you have all the wisdom.
I lack belief in the claim that gawwd exist. That is the extent of atheism. No amount of strawmaning my position on the claim you accept as truth, will paint that as anything other than this. I have no burden of proof as I make no claim on the existence of gawwd, I can't since you theist have yet to demonstrate that there is anything for me to make a claim on. So demonstrate your gawwd exist or expect me to go on about my life until you do.
Given that person B endorses position A.
step 1: redefine A to be so narrow that no rational person could hold that position, we'll call this position A'
step 2: then dishonestly swap the definitions of A and A'
step 3: claim that Person B must be irrational for endorsing position A
Tim
You have previously been informed that you are making a fool of yourself:
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheists-what-ifwe-all...
Perhaps you should start taking advice instead of giving it?
You have not even bothered to learn the definition of atheism, before starting to aggressively rant about subjects that are way more complex than the mere definition of a word, in an atheist forum.
- "You're an atheist, which is someone who claims there is no god, which means they claim they know EVERYTHING."
This has to be one of the funniest and single most ironic statements I have ever heard. You are actually "strawmanning" yourself...
Not only do you misunderstand the basic definition of the word "atheist", but you continue to deduce that atheists claims to know everything. This is normaly the exact opposite of the atheistic position, that instead expresses skepticism.
If there is a system for determining the level of ignorance per letter that can be squeezed into one sentence, I'm certain that you will have reached an extremely high score.
Ignorance is a great recipe for comedy, especially when it's combined arrogance, contempt and anger. But you also add a touch of sad tragedy, as your intention is not at all to be funny.
Oh boy, i just love it when atheists think that science supports their beliefs, or lack therof.
You are quite correct when you say that the big bang was the beginning of our universe, although i would add to your statement that it wasnt just all that is material which was created, but also time and space themselves.
Here, though, is where our conclusions on the origins of the universe differ. You may be tired of hearing the "something had to make the universe" argument, but that is because you don't understand that logically, and scientifically, and indeed philosophically, it is a valid argument. The universe, all creation, demands an explanation.
I'll demomstrate with three points.
1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause
2. The universe began to exist
3. Therefore, the universe had a cause
My conclusion, given the first two premises, will be true if both premises are also true.
The first premise, everything that begins to exist has a cause, is scientific fact. It is the law of causality, irrefutable and undeniable. Things don't begin to exist without being caused.
The second premise, the universe began to exist, is also unassailable scientific fact, as you know. It is confirmed by the cosmic background radiation, general relativity, the second law of thermodynamics, and plain observation of an accelerated expansion of the cosmos.
So the conclusion logically and necessarily follows that the universe had a cause. So all you atheists tell me, what could possibly have caused this universe?
So, I suppose you would also say that your god never began to exist, it always was, so is off the hook from your item #1.
Sigh...
If this is the case, please provide verifiable, testable, undeniable, measurable proof of that.
Both of those premises might be false, so the conclusion might be false also.
Everything that begins to exist does *not* have a cause: a sufficiently energetic photon (energy) *randomly* transitions to matter/anti-matter pairs. There is no cause, and in case you think that's esoteric, such conversions have routine in high-energy physics experiments for more than half a century, and there are decaying potassium-40 atoms in your body right now that exhibit exactly this effect, complete with the astonishing degree of randomness as they decay.
Also, why is the universe required to begin to exist? It's an open question whether time (as we experience it) predates the origin of our universe, and you can't have a beginning without time existing first.
Therefore, your premises both being logically flawed, your conclusion is wrong on both counts.
We do not determine design by determining complexity, but by contrast to nature. Nature is full of incredibly complex things that naturally occur, we can see them happening in real time, so we know they aren't intentionally designed by an extra-dimensional wizard. Strangely, what most people call "complexity" really boils down to patterns, which easily occur via natural processes. If we rendered all of the vertices of a snowflake, then multiplied that by the number of flakes in a snowstorm, that snowstorm would easily become the most "complex" thing on the planet. Yet we know they happen naturally, so we DON'T infer magical creation from it, just the awesome majesty of nature itself. So, no, the complexity argument simply doesn't cut it here. We know better.
Even worse, we will most likely not take your claims of supernatural beings doing stuff seriously, until such a time that you can demonstrate that said supernatural being exists to do anything at all. You arguments, quite suspiciously, could just as easily be used to support transcendent pixies.
I list nine "reasons for skepticism" in this short free ebook: http://www.dandana.us/atheism/ --
I read your book, thanks. As a person who already doesn't believe theistic claims I am not your target audience, but it's always nice to read the work of others who share many of my views. I would like to have seen more references for the facts you used, but that doesn't detract from how well it reads. My only real complaint content-wise is that I would like to have seen #10 under "Political implications of atheism" expanded upon; you wrote more than ten times as much about #11 (animal rights) which is nice and all but doesn't carry nearly the weight that #10 does. Well, in my opinion, which is worth as much as you want to give it.
What really tears it for me is this: there are 10^80 (or so) elementary particles in the universe, all of which interact through electromagnetism and gravity with every single other particle in the universe. That gives something like 10^(10^82) interactions, and that's not including quantum mechanical effects -- a number so large that just representing it would require more digits than there are particles in our universe. All of which would have to be micromanaged by any non-desitic god(s). Not only that, but chaos theory, quantum mechanics, and turbulence theory collude to make our universe profoundly non-deterministic, which means that any god(s) would also have to exist outside of time, adding yet another layer of unimaginable complexity to their existence.
In short, the god hypothesis promulgated by every mainstream god-based religion is patently absurd: god(s) cannot be omniscient, omnipotent, or even directing the universe.
("non-deistic")
You are thinking about this backwards. A smart person does not need a list of reasons to NOT believe something. You should need reasons TO believe something. You are starting from a dangerous precedent: "I will believe it until it is disproven." Scientifically backwards. And dangerous!
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