Question about hell, I fear hell

58 posts / 0 new

Tue, 10/25/2016 - 16:20

(Reply to #31) #32

chimp3

Showing mercy by roasting all those that don't believe but allowing pedophiles who do believe into paradise. How mercifully twisted!

Tue, 10/25/2016 - 16:27

(Reply to #32) #33

bigbill

if your alluding to priest

if your alluding to priest and pastors or other christian workers as long as they repent they get another chance in this lifetime.if you willfully live out your life without Jesus then you are making your own fate.Jesus says i knock at the door of your heart if you let me enter then you are saved.He will never force you against your will.He is to loving for that to happen.

Tue, 10/25/2016 - 16:34

(Reply to #33) #34

chimp3

Your fantasy is simply that.

Your fantasy is simply that. A fantasy. Not an original one either!

Tue, 10/25/2016 - 16:35

(Reply to #34) #35

pork232

If he really is that loving

If he really is that loving than he should let everyone enter, even those who are not Christian, because human beings are human beings and not perfect to begin with

Tue, 10/25/2016 - 18:41

(Reply to #35) #36

algebe

@Skeptical

@Skeptical
"as long as they repent they get another chance in this lifetime"

And does your merciful god also give another chance to their victims? The ones I've seen have suffered profound pyschological harm. Many have killed themselves, so I guess they went straight to hell, didn't they?

Tue, 11/01/2016 - 22:59

(Reply to #36) #37

Dave Matson

Algebe,

Isn't it weird how this Christian god draws a hard-and-fast line in the sand? Where is the logic? There is absolutely no reason why God could not have arranged things so that wrongdoers moved through a succession of worlds where they would improve by suffering and ultimately be worthy of heaven. Funny, that God would give the worst of criminals plenty of opportunities in this world to rate a heavenly reward but slam the door with finality in the next world so that many good people who didn't pass his strange test were forever condemned. This doctrine of God's has "human vengeance" written all over it! Do what their priests say or be damned forever! A real god who is benevolent would not be slamming doors with finality. It's a knee-jerk human idea.

Mon, 10/31/2016 - 21:47

(Reply to #37) #38

an_order_of_mag...

@sc

(an order of magnitude looking into his heart)...Vena Cava ... Semilunar Valve ... Left Atrium...Damn it!...Left Ventricle...Pulmonary Artery...maybe here...Right Ventricle...no not there...Pulmonary Vein...Right Atrium...God damn it! Where the fuck is the door to my heart?! I knew I should have paid more attention in biology!

Mon, 10/31/2016 - 01:54

(Reply to #38) #39

Kataclismic

This dude?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2776194/Jesus-never-exist...

You might want to reconsider if you actually look at the lack of evidence for his existence.

Tue, 11/01/2016 - 01:16

(Reply to #39) #40

Dave Matson

skeptical christian,

Being that you put a lot of faith in what Jesus supposedly said, you will definitely want to read "The Five Gospels: What Did Jesus Really Say?" The book is the conclusion of a study some years ago by a large number of sympathetic (but serious) Bible scholars who made up the Jesus Seminar. Being scholars, and knowing their subject well, they understood something you have yet to learn, that a lot of words got put into Jesus' mouth that don't belong there! They began with a very optimistic viewpoint, namely that Jesus really did exist and that it is possible to dig past accumulated garbage to retrieve his actual words in the Gospels. (We atheists, and other Bible scholars, are not nearly so optimistic.) The point of the Jesus Seminar was to search for the authentic words of Jesus, passages they felt existed and could be identified by scholarly study.

In "The Five Gospels" the conclusion of the Jesus Seminar is registered in colors, the result of a vote by the participating scholars. Red verses mean that, in their learned opinion, Jesus undoubtedly said as much or something very similar. Pink verses meant that Jesus might have said something like it. Gray (looking more like blue-gray in my copy!) meant that the words were not something that Jesus would have actually said although the ideas would have been reasonably close to his own. Black meant that the passage or perspective was not Jesus' and belongs to a later or a different tradition.

Thus, you can read through the four gospels as well as the Gospel of Thomas (seen by many scholars as preserving early, authentic material) and see for yourself how sympathetic (but not naive) scholars rate the various sayings of Jesus and why. Along the way you can learn a whole lot of stuff that you were never taught in Sunday School! (Atheists can learn a lot too in understanding how the authenticity of Gospel verses are judged!) The Jesus Seminar analyzed the words attributed to Jesus at a depth that does not exist in your naive approach. Of course, you will have to pull your head out of the sand. That's a necessary step in learning any new thing.

Keep in mind that the Jesus Seminar assumes that Jesus really existed. Starting from that point, they wanted to get passed the accumulated garbage that represents later doctrines and editing. They wanted the real Jesus which should be of some interest to you. Short of burying yourself in self-delusions, as some sects do, this is as good as it gets for the Jesus-believer.

Tue, 11/01/2016 - 04:15

(Reply to #40) #41

Teresa1964

Indeed! Just as people of the

Indeed! Just as people of the Eckankar faith put their trust in Eck because of what they read in the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad.

So what are you skeptical of?

Tue, 11/01/2016 - 23:30

(Reply to #41) #42

Dave Matson

Tee Celeste,

What am I skeptical of? I am an atheist, so I don't buy into the Christian religion which includes its divine Jesus. Some versions of the man Jesus do fit in with the times as demonstrated by several Jesus-like characters known to historians. Jesus, the man who might have existed, was almost certainly a Jew who was not trying to start a formal movement or a church, and those who followed him would have been a rather insignificant group by the usual standards.

I also reject the supernatural world since I view the natural world as all.

Wed, 11/02/2016 - 10:30

(Reply to #42) #43

Teresa1964

Apologies, I was addressing

Apologies, I was addressing Skeptical Christian. He believes in the Bible hook, line and sinker so I don't get where the "skeptical" comes in.

Fri, 11/25/2016 - 17:54

(Reply to #43) #44

MCDennis

Why? What is the

Why? What is the justification for this faith you profess?

And, about a lot of validity in ''his'' words. Like: Give no thought for tomorrow. Don't you think that this is some really really bad advice???.

Tue, 10/25/2016 - 17:02

#45

bigbill

Jesus died for humanity not

Jesus died for humanity not mohammad not budah not kristna jesus took apon humanitys sins so it rightfully is that he is the only way.That`s why jews converted to christ in the early church period.They knew deep down in side that he was the way.Read Acts chapter 4 verse 12. the apostle peter is stating this fact,also the book of hebrews tells that Jesus is the great high priest.Jesus loves humanity and is very patient with humanity up to this point.

Tue, 10/25/2016 - 18:04

(Reply to #45) #46

CyberLN

"Jesus died for humanity...".

So, SC, according to your story, why was a human sacrifice necessary? Why the brutality? Could the goal have been reached in some other way? A more peaceful way?

Tue, 10/25/2016 - 22:05

(Reply to #46) #47

ThePragmatic

@ "skeptical" christian

"Jesus died for humanity..."

What of those who never believed in Jesus, simply because they were never told about Christianity?

Tue, 11/01/2016 - 02:07

(Reply to #47) #48

Dave Matson

skeptical christian,

I suspect that, assuming Jesus ever existed, his death was unexpected and that the Gospels were written mainly to "explain" how such a thing could have happened. It sounds like a case of being given lemons, so make lemonade! The messiah was supposed to be the point man in overthrowing the Roman occupation, not a Roman victim. But reality has a mind of its own and the faithful had to come up with a way to justify this unexpected turn of events.

Fri, 11/25/2016 - 18:05

(Reply to #48) #49

MCDennis

The resurrection is NOT

The resurrection is NOT limited to christianity. There are many religions and gods that died and were reborn to ''save'' mankind. Jesus is just another in a long line of deities that were supposed to have resurrected. I assume you knew that. So, which of the other resurrected saviors do you worship along with jesus? FYI, here is a link to 10 others to get you started: http://listverse.com/2013/03/30/10-resurrected-religious-figures/

Tue, 10/25/2016 - 18:21

#50

pork232

@Skeptical Christian actually

@Skeptical Christian actually, if you look at history there have been many stories of religious figures being born on December 25th to a virgin mother and dying to forgive sins, not to mention return from the dead. Look up Horus, who was talked about thousands of years before the birth of the Jesus was mentioned in the bible. Look up the Epic of Gligamesh too, an exact copy of the bible's legendary Noah's Ark. Wait a miniute... How can these stories be copying the bible if they were written before the time at which the bible was written? I guess that clears up the question of who was copying whom.

Tue, 11/01/2016 - 02:42

#51

Dave Matson

pork222,

The Pragmatic wisely notes that it takes some time (maybe a few years) for your brain to fully overthrow this nonsense about hell. That hell is total nonsense is a no-brainer to many of us (for a lot of reasons) but there was a time when we were more naive and had to wrestle with it as well, when it seemed real and threatening. Knowledge is the slayer of such demons, and if you pursue the excellent material that can be found in skeptical books and on the Internet (as you seem to be doing) then you will soon enough be out of the gloomy shadows of irrational fear and into the warm sunshine of reason.

On Near Death Experience, I recall some excellent articles in Skeptic magazine. Maybe you could locate the issue on the Internet. Back issues of Skeptic can easily be purchased.

Tue, 11/01/2016 - 03:53

#52

Teresa1964

Pork 222,

I really empathize with you -- I was there for 30 years myself. I know the concept is so terrifying, even if there is just a small chance, it does not work to compare it to Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

One thing that might help is a bit of a history lesson about hell. You will find that what you fear is actually a very new belief in Christianity.

I am an athiest, but first I was a Protestant, and then for the next 18 years I was an Orthodox Christian. Orthodox Christian theology and dogma are unchanged since the 3rd Century.

(The Catholics broke off in 1054 to make changes, and the Protestants broke off from the Catholics in the 1400s to make more changes. So if you think of it like a game of "Telephone," the Orthodox are closest to the original speaker.)

The picture is a 5th Century icon of Jesus releasing people from hell. They believe he did this after he was crucified, and literally "defeated hell." To many Orthodox this means hell does not exist anymore. And almost none believe it exists PHYSICALLY. They never did.

They also believe that Christ died "for all mankind," not only for Christians. Instead of hell being a place, it is a state one is in when surrounded by God's love. Those who are loving will find it heavenly, and those full of hate will find it hellish, but both are experiencing the same thing.

(A lot of people say that much of Orthodox theology is not in the Bible. Well, that's because it took almost 1,000 years for the Bible to be assembled and the Orthodox were around the whole time. It's like saying Columbus never came to America because we don't have a videotape of him.)

You will also notice in the picture there are no flames. Some icons have flames (which are symbolic) but most do not. Our visions today actually come from the poem "Dante's Inferno" in the 1400s, not from the church at all. The Catholics exaggerated and newer Christian denominations have exaggerated it more.

One last important point: Judaism has no theology of hell, and never did. Hell was first mentioned by Jesus.

The Jews were God's chosen people and he spoke with them regularly and gave them the laws ... but he never mentioned hell to them. Weird, huh? Was he keeping a secret?

Then Jesus comes with the Good News -- that if people believe in him they can escape hell. But if no one was afraid of hell before that, it doesn't seem like very good news!
------------------

Of course, as an athiest, I don't believe anymore in theology. But if you are a Christian struggling with certain things, it is helpful to know it's not what the early Christians believed.

I know it will take more than this to allay your fears, but I hope it helps. I wish I would have known all this decades ago!

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Wed, 11/02/2016 - 13:49

(Reply to #52) #53

watchman

@Tee Celeste ...

@Tee Celeste ...
Just a quick question .......

"One last important point: Judaism has no theology of hell, and never did. Hell was first mentioned by Jesus."

"Judaism has no theology of hell, and never did." ....... true enough....

But..."Hell was first mentioned by Jesus.".......

Sorry but I have to ask.....do you have any evidence for this......for Jesus mentioning Hell......chapter and verse ,perhaps..??

Sat, 11/05/2016 - 01:12

(Reply to #53) #54

Teresa1964

@watchman

Some relaxing evening reading for you.

http://blog.adw.org/2013/05/jesus-who-loves-you-warned-of-hell-a-catalog...

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Sat, 11/05/2016 - 01:13

(Reply to #54) #55

Teresa1964

@watchman

Some relaxing evening reading for you.

http://blog.adw.org/2013/05/jesus-who-loves-you-warned-of-hell-a-catalog...

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Sat, 11/05/2016 - 01:13

(Reply to #55) #56

Teresa1964

@watchman

Some relaxing evening reading for you.

http://blog.adw.org/2013/05/jesus-who-loves-you-warned-of-hell-a-catalog...

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Sun, 11/06/2016 - 03:50

#57

watchman

Sorry for delay in replying..

Sorry for delay in replying.........(its my busy time of year)

Any way.........the concept (indeed the word ),HELL is a conceit introduced by early translators......there is NO mention of either the concept or the word in the earliest versions of the bible.

lets take Matthew 5:29......although it is the same for any of the supposed quotes mentioning hell......

Latin Vulgate....

link: http://vulgate.org/nt/gospel/matthew_5.htm

"29 quod si oculus tuus dexter scandalizat te erue eum et proice abs te expedit enim tibi ut pereat unum membrorum tuorum quam totum corpus tuum mittatur in gehennam"

Translated as.....

And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than thy whole body be cast into hell.

Note...the final word translated as HELL is not ,in the latin form "INFERNUM" (the latin for hell)...the final word is "gehennam" (the latinised version of GEHENNA.....

The same is true if you use the early Greek Bilble......
link:
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm

or indeed the Aramaic Peshitta Bible
link:
http://www.peshitta.org/

Gehenna ?......
is a small valley in Jerusalem and the Jewish and Christian analogue of hell. The terms are derived from a place outside ancient Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom (Hebrew: גֵיא בֶן־הִנֹּם or גיא בן-הינום, Gai Ben-Hinnom). The Valley of Hinnom is the modern name for the valley surrounding Jerusalem's Old City, including Mount Zion, from the west and south. It meets and merges with the Kidron Valley, the other principal valley around the Old City, near the southeastern corner of the city.

In the Hebrew Bible, Gehenna was initially where some of the kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire.[1] Thereafter it was deemed to be cursed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

The aspects of punishment only attached after the repeat use of HELL as the normal" translation.
Hell originated in Nordic religions as both a realm and a deity.......

link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

So...pedantic ,I know.........but Jesus said Gehenna ,Sheol ,fiery place or furnace...but never HELL. so not sure how we are supposed to understand exactly what Jesus meant by his use of these words /phrases....

but of course followers of the Abrahamic faiths get told exactly what to think on any given subject at any given time...

Fri, 11/25/2016 - 17:49

#58

MCDennis

You're afraid of hell?

You're afraid of hell? Seriously. Which hell specifically? The Norse hell. The muslim hell. The catholic hell. The protestant version of hell. Billy Graham's version of hell.

The problem is that you likely ignore every other version of hell than whatever theology you were raised with. Stop worrying about one unless you worry about every version of hell

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