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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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@Joshb: "When is Christianity a works based faith?" When you are a Catholic?
What does that have to do with anything? I never made the assertion that Christianity was work based. Obviously some Christian sects are and others are not. There are 30,000 different Christian sects are we to dissect the lot? I have neither the time or the interest. Why don't you stay on topic and stop trying to divert.
@ Cog
All I was saying is that we are saved not by our completed purpose, but by faith alone and you said that was horseshit. Wondering why you think that?
Joshb: And all I said it that you are saved from a fucking situation your GOD put you in in the first place. No Christian God - NO HELL. It's just that frigging easy. My purpose is not to avoid hell or get to heaven. I have better things to do and worry about in my life.
I never said anything at all about "faith alone." Those words never came out of my keyboard. You are lying once again and trying to divert from the topic. This only makes you look like a dishonest ass.
re: FAITH: Since you mention faith and asserted, "I said it was horseshit." Now that we know you are a liar and I never said anything of the sort in any post above. I will now confirm "FAITH IS HORSESHIT." There is no position a person can not hold on faith. Mormons have faith. Buddhists have faith. Muslims have faith. If faith were a reliable path to truth we would all have the same faith. Faith is what flies theists into buildings. Faith is what persecutes homosexuals and burns witches. I can hold any position to be true based on faith. FAITH IS HORSESHIT. Now how about getting back on topic.
@ Cog
I beg of you to stop committing red herring and ad hominem fallacies! Haha
Heres what was written:
me -"God will allow people to perish if they don't believe in Him, not whether they accomplish their purpose."
you -One of the longest strings of horseshit I have seen on the site this week.
I--not you-- I was talking about salvation through faith. You were the one that called it horseshit. I simply wanted to know why you thought that.
Now, every religion has "faith." However, no religion except Christianity ONLY requires faith for salvation. I am not using faith as proof of Christianity, simply that faith is what is required for salvation FOR Christianity. Stop trying to refute something I never said haha.
@Josh Re: "However, no religion except Christianity ONLY requires faith for salvation."
...*face palm*.... Oh-dear-lord.... Ahem!... Uh, you DO realize, I hope, that depends entirely on which particular sect/denomination of the Christian faith an individual follows? It is incredibly curious to me how we atheists seem to know more about your religion than YOU do. Hmmmm.... *scratching chin*...
@ Tin Man
Ain't that the truth brother! Amen!
RED HERRING??? How can I possibly avoid an ad hominem when you post utter and complete ignorant.
"ONE OF THE LONGEST STRINGS OF HORSESHIT I HAVE SEEN THIS WEEK." Is not an ad hominem attack "YOU MORON" is an ad hominem attack. Calling the idiotic bullshit you wrote 'HORSE SHIT' is about the garbage you are producing. If I had called you a "FUCKING MORON" for producing the garbage that you produced, then that would be an ad-hominem attack. The fact that you do not recognize the difference is not my problem.
Calling "Salvation through faith" HORSESHIT is also NOT AN AD-HOMINEM ATTACK, NOR IS IT FALLACIOUS. Faith is not a path to any kind of truth. There is no position that can not be held on faith. If this is your standard of truth, every religion on the planet is as equally true as your own. THIS IS AN EXTREMELY IGNORANT POSITION TO HOLD. (NOTE: Not an ad hominem attack. The position is ignorant. I did not call you an ignorant fucktard.
Faith is useless. It leads no-place. And you have obviously not read your bible. What did Jesus say when he was asked about salvation? What were the exact words of Jesus according to your bible? Do you even know?
@ Cog
I never said faith was the path to truth... I said faith is the path to salvation in the Christian religion.
John 5:24 "...whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life"
John 6:40 "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."
John 6:47 "Very truly I tell you the one who believes has eternal life."
Now, James 2:24 says "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone"
Contradiction? Nah
The whole point of having faith is to act through it, not to just have intellectual faith. Faith is the BASIS for salvation, but I think that if a person truly believes in Christ, good works are inevitable. Faith without works is dead because it wouldn't be true faith.
@Joshb: " I said faith is the path to salvation in the Christian religion."
And how do you know that? "faith" Faith is not a path to truth. Why must you continually write utterly ignorant posts. Please demonstrate Christian Salvation without "faith."
He he he he he he ...... A classic job of Cherry Picking Scripture to make is say what you want to say. What did Jesus say, when he was specifically asked, "What must I do to have eternal life?" (Hint: Another obvious biblical contradiction responsible for half the Christian population asserting the other half is not following scripture.)
@ Cog
"Please demonstrate Christian salvation without 'faith'"
You can't... that's what Christianity is.
Once again, faith is not a path to truth - its the path to salvation. The verses I quoted are straight from Jesus' mouth.
Regarding Jesus and the young rich man asking about eternal life, Jesus used that opportunity to show how people cannot reach salvation through works. Jesus says keep all of the commandments, which the man has apparently kept, but then Jesus says "If you would be perfect" sell everything and give to the poor. I hope we agree that nobody is perfect. Therefore nobody can reach eternal life by being perfect since that is what is required by salvation through works. Jesus is simply pointing out that the commandments must be followed, but nobody can follow them perfectly, resulting in salvation through faith.
@Josh: "You can't... that's what Christianity is." Then you just proved my point. Would you stop writing utter and complete nonsense and FOLLOW THE LOGIC.
YOU SAID. "Faith is not a path to truth, it is a path to salvation."
I ASKED YOU: "How do you know that?"
THE ONLY POSSIBLE RESPONSE YOU HAVE IS "FAITH." (The bible says so? How do you know? "faith God says so? How do you know? "Faith." Everything - like you said, is based on faith. ]
SO YOUR ANSWER IS "FAITH."
AND WE END UP WITH - "FAITH IS NOT A PATH TO TRUTH. The assertion that faith leads to salvation is based on faith and therefore not logical and not a truth claim of any kind. It can be rejected. "Faith leads you to salvation" can not be demonstrated without evoking "faith" and "faith" can not lead you to a truth claim.
NICE WAY TO BEND AND WRIGGLE WHAT JESUS ACTUALLY SAID INTO YOUR OWN INTERPRETATION.
Selling everything is a work, giving it to the poor is a work, following the commandments is a work. JESUS SAYS NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT HAVING FAITH. NOTHING.
Matt. 19:16-22, “And behold, one came to Him and said, “Teacher, what GOOD THING SHALL I DO (WORKS) that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but IF YOU WISH TO ENTER INTO LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.” 18 He said to Him, “WHICH ONES?” AND JESUS SAID, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BARE FALSE WITNESS ; 19 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (WORKS); and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF (WORKS)” 20 The young man said to Him, “ALL THESE THINGS I HAVE KEPT, AM I STILL LACKING?” 21 JESUS SAID to him, “IF YOU WISH TO BE COMPLETE, GO AND SELL YOUR POSSESSIONS (WORKS) AND GIVE TO THE POOR (WORKS) AND COME FOLLOW ME.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieved; for he was one who owned much property.” (The parallel passage is found in Mark 10:17-22 and Luke 18:18-23, listed at end of article).
Jesus NEVER mentions have faith or believe. Why? (I know, do you?)
@ Cog
Ah Cog... I love you man but you're completely missing the point here.
Salvation is completely possible by following every commandment and doing every good work, but only if you're perfect at it. You can't mess up once. Jesus certainly says salvation is possible through works but the problem is we are not even close to perfect at doing them. Does the man sell all of his possessions and give to the poor? No. That is the whole message of Bible - recognizing that we are imperfect and therefore cannot reach salvation on our own. That is where the grace of God comes into the picture.
The assertion that salvation is based on faith is proven from the very words of Jesus. I have no "faith" in the assertion if he actually said it, and is the Son of God. However, I do have faith in God. If I could "prove" faith leads to salvation, it wouldn't be faith in the first place, it would be fact. You are making a category mistake by asking for proof for faith.
@ Well Josh, let's keep it simple then...
how about contemporary proof or evidence for the jesus figure you claim existed?
Edit: relevant quote added.
@Josh : Jesus certainly says salvation is possible through works but the problem is we are not even close to perfect at doing them.
You just conceded. We can reach salvation on our own through works and so says HALF THE FRIGGING CHRISTIAN POPULATION. A couple of examples for you.....
Roman Catholic - Salvation is received by virtue of the sacrament of Baptism. It may be lost by mortal sin and may be regained by Penance. CE
HERE IS AN ARTICLE FOR YOU:
Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint?
https://www.gotquestions.org/salvation-by-works.html
Deny it all you like but accosting to the article, my assertion that half the Christians disagree with you was being generous. You are actually in the minority.
@ Cog
Cog you just committed the "bandwagon" fallacy. Just because the majority of Christians believe salvation through works does not make it true.
In YOUR article it says:
"Because salvation by works appeals to man’s sinful nature, it forms the basis of almost every religion except for biblical Christianity. Proverbs 14:12 tells us that “there is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.” Salvation by works seems right to men, which is why it is the predominantly held viewpoint. That is exactly why biblical Christianity is so different from all other religions—it is the only religion that teaches salvation is a gift of God and not of works. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8–9)."
You might want to proof read your articles before sending them.
Re: Josh - "Just because the majority of Christians believe salvation through works does not make it true."
...*radio song interrupted by emergency tone*... *beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep-beep-beep*.... *radio announcer voice*.... "We interrupt this program to bring you this breaking news bulletin. A large Irony Meter factory exploded today shortly after the above statement was posted on a well-known atheist debate site. Film at 11. We now return you to the regularly scheduled program, still in progress."... *radio music resumes playing*... "...the man of my dreams
And then meeting his beautiful wife
And isn't it ironic, don't you think?
A little too ironic, and yeah I really do think
It's like rain on your wedding day
It's a free ride when you've..."
@Josh: No, I stated an actual statistical fact. At no point did I assert it was true. I don't believe any of this shit. I don't believe your shit any more than I believe their shit. I am not arguing for the right way to interpret your stupid book. I am pointing out that your friends in Christ DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU. As far as I am concerned you are all full of shit. Your argument does not hold water with me and it certainly does not hold water with your fellow believers. THAT IS A FACT!
You really do not know your fallacies very well do you?
THE ONLY PART OF THE ARTICLE I NEED: "which is why it is the predominantly held viewpoint" I am not indicating right or wrong, only disagreement, and therefore no reason at all to validate your claims. Your issue is with your fellow believers, not me.
@ Cog
If you haven't been asserting it is true, why have you been saying "We can reach salvation on our own through works" and pointing to passages to prove me "wrong"? I am telling you that you are wrong, and yet you keep arguing for that position. So, my impression is that you are asserting that statement is true and yet your own article argues against that.
There is a difference between proving something true and pointing out that your fellow Christians, the majority, do not agree with you. Do you know the third way a person can be saved and go to heaven "WITHOUT" being a Christian? It's in your bible!
@ Cog
Yeah I get that it just sounded like you were arguing for salvation through works which is not true, regardless of how many Christians believe otherwise. The whole point of this conversation is to clarify the message of Jesus and the Bible as a whole which I hope prompts you to look at Christianity differently. I truly want the best for you which is why I am repeatedly trying to make myself and Jesus' message clear.
And are you talking about baptism when youre talking about this third (really just one) way to salvation?
Josh: No, not baptism, just various Christian interpretations of scripture. You do realize that there are 30 thousand Christian sects and the reason they are sects is because they have interpreted the bible differently than the general population. THE POINT IS -- There is no ability at all to clarify anything scriptural. The bible is not a book.; It is a collection of books, written over thousands of years, by hundreds of authors - each with their own agenda and own version of Jesus.
One way to salvation --- Ha ha ha ha ha ha.... "according to you." Please prove the assertion.
@ Cog
Do we really want to go into Biblical reliability? We have approximately 6,000 manuscripts for the New Testament alone - the most manuscripts of any ancient book... next highest is Homer's Illiad at 600. The fact that the Bible contains 66 books, written over thousands of years by 40 authors and still contains the same message should actually point to scriptural consistency. Not following the author's "own agenda" logic..
Re: Josh - "The fact that the Bible contains 66 books, written over thousands of years by 40 authors and still contains the same message should actually point to scriptural consistency."
For what it's worth, I find it difficult to believe anybody could be this dense unless it is being done on purpose simply for the sake of being an annoying ass. Because if a person is genuinely and naturally this ignorant, then I am totally baffled as to how such a person manages to function on a daily basis.... *scratching head in wonderment*...
@ Josh
And NOT ONE fragment can be dated before 125CE. Your point was?
@Josh
Yo! You do realize "salvation" is a COMPLETELY unproven human made concept right?
It is like hoping if you are faithful enough you will get a billion dollars tomorrow... because you were faithful (whatever "faithful" means it is so subjective!)
Would you worship me and be "faithful" to me if I promised you a billion dollars after you die?
Why not?
What is the difference in rejecting my promise but not the promise of people talking/writing about their god idea? Who benefits from your "faith" right here and now in the real world you are currently living in? Do you think this god idea people told you about or.. maybe the people that told you about the god idea?
@JOSH! "Yeah I get that it just sounded like you were arguing for salvation through works which is not true" HALF THE CHRISTIANS OUT THERE DISAGREE WITH YOU. I HAVE CLEARLY SHOWN YOU THAT. YOUR POSITION IS NOT CORRECT. READ THE FRIGGING ARTICLE!!!
OR YOU COULD JUST ACT LIKE AN IGNORANT FOOL AND MINDLESSLY BABBLE THE "NO TRUE SCOTSMAN FALLACY."
In any case, I do not give a shit. You are the one uttering complete nonsense. Your issue is with your fellow Christians and not with me. When you people get your religion organized, get back to us.
And I repeat, by your own definition, Hitler is in heaven.
Does this include the ones that endorse slavery, or the one that says unruly children should be taken to the edge of town and stoned to death?
What about Jesus asserting all slaves should obey their masters, even the cruel ones, do you think that's a path to your imaginary afterlife as well?
@Joshb
"All I was saying is that we are saved not by our completed purpose, but by faith alone "
Therefore Hitler is in heaven while Anne Frank is in hell.
I have a MAJOR problem with that, and you don't?
Holy fuck, what an evil and perverted faith-based position.
@ David
Woah woah hold on. Very confused on how we got from faith alone to Hitler in heaven. I hope you understand when I say "faith alone" I'm meaning faith in Christ.
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