I have seen a number of replies by christians that try and defend the indefensible by simply saying...."They are not real christians."
Pretty convenient excuse if you ask me. Was Pope Julius II not a real christian? Was Charlemagne not a real christian? Were all the conquistadors not true christians? Are all the skinheads not real christians? All of them committed homicides in the name of jesus!
The fact is the only requirement to being a true christian is to accept jesus as your lord and savior. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Who gets to decide who a real christian is anyway?
Although I have renounced religion especially christianity and I don't believe in a god, I by definition am a true christian. I fulfilled every requirement. I was baptized. I was confirmed. I am able to by church law able to receive communion. So if I go on a murdering rampage and do it in the name of the lord jesus, I am still by definition a true christian. No one gets to define an individual although it's done all the time. Christians love to catagorize people to segregate them to impose prejudices against them and they do so in the name of jesus. Even the term "atheist" is not appropriate and is just a label. An atheist is just a person that is acting perfectly normal in regards to deciding if they have enough evidence to believe a myth or not. It is the believer that is acting in an unnatural way. To blindly believe and even lead one's life based on something that has no basis in fact and is completely baseless is unnatural. They should bear the brunt of being labeled not those that just don't believe their myth. But I digress. To say someone is not a true christian because they don't act in a way that YOU don't accept is arrogant and condescending. Hitler was a christian. Actually, Stalin was a christian as well. Charles Manson was a christian. All but one mass murderer in US history were christians. David Koresh was a christian.
Let me clarify, I am in no way a christian. That is my choice, but by definition, I am a christian as I met every requirement to be a christian. Only I and I alone can decide if I am a christian or not and I am not! No one has the right to tell me any different.
Take Islam. Millions are being killed simply because one group of muslims believe that mohammed was the last prophet and another group believes that blood relatives of mohammed have the right to rule over islam. That's it. That is what the whole fucking fight is over. People screaming about who are and who are not true muslims. No christian sect has the right to declare that another sect is not christian or that an individual is not a true christian, but of course, it makes it really hard for christians who happen to by their demographic commit more crimes than any other segment of society!
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mykcob4,
Paul, who wrote the book, says that a true Christian is one who follows his gospel.
Galatians 1:8-9 (NKJV) = "8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."
@ Diotrephes
Paul only wrote some of his stuff ( authorship of the entire Philippics open to dispute) and in those verses you quote he was referring only to his own version of the "gospel"
If that is the point you were were making then we agree.
He did not write or edit the whole lot of texts that made up the gospels. Most of them were distributed, edited and added to to suit local conditions and beliefs. The synoptic gospels seem to be all from one source , just attributed to and edited by different authors. John and Thomas are the oddities. The Apocrypha are another kettle of fish.
(edited for simple spellcheck error)
Old man shouts ...,
IMO the Apocrypha, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastics are the best books in the Bible. The rest can be tossed.
It's a common logical fallacy, it's called The No True Scotsman Fallacy.
"The no true scotsman fallacy is a way of reinterpreting evidence in order to prevent the refutation of one's position. Proposed counter-examples to a theory are dismissed as irrelevant solely because they are counter-examples, but purportedly because they are not what the theory is about."
@Sheldon
Did not know the name. Now I do, thanks. I will use it in the future. Sure seems like a common one around here.
Maybe the problem is true Christianity is not understood.
"True christianity" is in the eye of the beholder.
Therefore that statement that it is not understood is meaningless.
"Maybe the problem is true Christianity is not understood."
Then how do you know it's true? That sounds like a fallacious appeal to authority.
@AJ777
Which Christianity? Estimates on how many Christian denominations exist run from 21,000 to 40,00 plus. Overall, Christianity can be clumped into six major belief and practice systems. Independents, Protestants, “Marginals”, Orthodox, Roman Catholics and Anglicans.
Even back in the first century AD, three major practices emerged, Jewish Christianity, Pauline Christianity, and Gnostic Christianity.
Yes, true Christianity can not be understood because even Christians can not agree on how to bend the knee.
And I don't even want to get too deep into the simple fact that many claim to follow the bible completely, yet in practice they cherry-pick the passages they feel comfortable with.
Myk, I don’t understand.
You wrote, “The fact is the only requirement to being a true christian is to accept jesus as your lord and savior.”
But then you wrote, “ I have renounced religion especially christianity and I don't believe in a god,.”
And, “I by definition am a true christian.”
That sounds like you do not, in fact, accept jesus as your lord and savior. If you don’t then how are you a true xtian?
@CyberLN
Under the doctrine of the Anglican (king's church)(Episcopal) When one is confirmed they are forever a christian no matter what they do afterward.
Officially the church sees me as christian although personally, I am not. That is just fact. The only way I can be seen otherwise by the church is to be excommunicated which is very hard to do.
Actually, that is the case with all trinitarian religions...officially.
Now some may refute this but I have researched this extensively by confirming it through the Archbishop of the Episcopal Chruch and the Dean of Divinity of Harvard University Dr. David N. Hempton. According to my research, I would have to petition to be excommunicated and it is a long process. My confirmation is a legal and binding contract between my soul and god. It allows me the right of communion. Even though I refute this and renounce it, it apparently isn't up to me.
Fascinating.
@Cyber
The way I discovered this was I was about 17 when Father Law(that was his real name) called me into his office over what he called a "troubling situation". I went and he said that I have been heard stating that I don't believe in god. I said that is true that I am no longer a christian. He said it isn't that easy, you were confirmed. From that point, I have been learning more and more that it is almost impossible to deny your faith official to the church. Dr. Hempton was a big help. At one point I asked him if I ever would be successful in denying my faith to the church. He responded by saying "does it matter?" So I quit trying. At this point, it only means that if I don't specifically declare in a will of how to dispose of my remains that any person left in charge of that detail can have me buried with the full religious ceremony on church grounds!
All very interesting. I think “does it matter” is a brilliant question. You might want to apply it to what happens with your remains as well. Who the hell cares where your body decomposes, you won’t be using it anymore.
@CyberLN
Oh but I do. I have donated as much as I could to science and the rest is to be cremated and strewn across the Ozarks.
Also, I am against embalming. I understand it protects against disease, but it is a poison and it also preserves the body for no good reason. Why have a body remain around intact for decades? I also don't believe in cemeteries. What a colossal waste of land.
mykcob4,
"Also, I am against embalming."
Embalming is part of the ancient Egyptian funeral rites. The idea was to preserve the body intact until Judgment Day. And the practice of burying the corpse facing East is so that it will see Jesus when he returns at dawn. There's a lot of superstitious shit involved when it comes to funerals.
My wife and I have pre-paid cremations. I don't know who will see about roasting me if I survive her. I'm hoping for a good burn. The idea of being buried doesn't appeal to me at all.
I have also been confirmed into an Anglican church. Not sure I really believed it even then. I've told my wife it is my intention to leave my remains to medical science, if she wants to mark the occasion of my death she can throw a party for the children and grandchildren. I am growing to detest funerals more and more as I get older.
mykcob4,
"Even though I refute this and renounce it, it apparently isn't up to me."
That sounds so Islamic and Mafia.
Is it logical to state that someone who doesn’t believe god exists is a Christian based on their external actions? If I go to a country music festival, does that mean I enjoy country music? If I eat macaroni and cheese, does that mean that it’s my favorite?
@AJ777
1) I thought you were gone.
2) The logistics is what I am talking about, not some amateur interpretation that YOU bring to the table.
futile questions...
NEXT..!!!
"Is it logical to state that someone who doesn’t believe god exists is a Christian based on their external actions? "
Christianity is not remotely logical, that's a given.
The catholic church has only excommunicated one high ranking Nazis, just one. It was Joseph Goebbels, and he was excommunicated for marrying a divorced protestant. How's that for logic.
@AJ777: Is it logical to state that someone who doesn’t believe god exists is a Christian based on their external actions?
Judging from organizations like the Clergy Project, I'm sure there are a lot of people who outwardly act like Christians without inwardly believing in it, especially among religious professionals.
What percentage of Christian church members do you think are true believers? Which is the true Christian church?
Mykcob4, you seem to be implying that external appearances are what make someone a true believer of a set of beliefs. Amateur, as opposed to your professional interpretation? If I’m, wrong, explain why?
@AJ777
I didn't "imply" anything. I stated a fact. You do your OWN fucking research. The church does not accept that I am no longer a christian, and won't ever. It has nothing to do with appearance. It's not "my" interpretation.
@mykcob4,
That strikes me as an awkward way to define a "Christian." Is there any reason why that particular definition should be accepted and not another? You seem to be saying that in the eyes of this particular church you remain a Christian, a point that can't be faulted. One can't argue with a definition. But I suspect that most of us would include present belief in Jesus as a necessary condition for our applying that term. It would be a case of pulling out the phrase book and making the appropriate translation between the two uses of "Christian."
mykcob4,
"The church does not accept that I am no longer a christian, and won't ever."
According to the Yeshua character our asses are toast.
John 15:6(TLB) = "If anyone separates from me, he is thrown away like a useless branch, withers, and is gathered into a pile with all the others and burned."
According to the fairy tale Yeshua made that threat after he had told his disciples that they had to become cannibals if they wanted eternal life (John chapter 6). They said to hell with that and most of them took up a new hobby. Only the hardcore cultists stayed.
What church are you referring to? What would you suggest I research?
@AJ777
Wow, dude. You really should take some Gas-X or something. That lower-intestinal problem you appear to be having is apparently having adverse effects on your reading comprehension skills. Myk explained his situations perfectly well to Cyber in a clear and concise manner even a fifth-grader could understand. If the Gas-X doesn't work for you though, I strongly suggest you get checked by a doctor. Getting a little concerned about you, big guy. You are looking really uncomfortable.
"uncomfortable."
tell me about it T-man
i guess the word is dazed and confused.
can't even answer a straight question.
and he replied this:
"This is the same forum I remember."
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