Hi, guys.
Basically, i faced a really stressful day yesterday concerning work, relationships etc, i tried to relax a bit at home talking to my father about music and stuff, we watched some funny Eurovision videos but soon enough the subject went straight on to God, faith, spirits, demons, etc and after almost 2 hours of discussion i decided to leave because i was pretty disturbed by the things i heard.
First of all, let me contextualize everything for you guys: I was born and raised as a Jehovah's Witness in a most entirely Jehovah's Witness family, at age 11 i was already thinking about reaching higher posts in the congregation, but quickly i found internet, which helped me to start questioning my own faith, realizing that, til that day, i was spending my life believing in something just for the sake of doing it, i deeply feared God when i was even younger (around age 6) and i remember of watching tons of horror movies but i just couldn't read the Apocalypse book because it was so damn brutal, so... wrong. "Something is wrong" i remember of asking "why God will punish so severely people that don't follow him if He's good?" and i usually didn't get any conclusive answer.
But that was a long time ago. Now, after years being an atheist, i suddenly found myself fragile and fearful again because my father always tell me stories about demonic possessions, he even claims to have seen some of these and, fuck, he's my father, i don't exactly believe him but i can't simply say that he's nuts and lying to me, im an adult after all and i think he's a good person, maybe he saw what he said, and that caught me thinking a lot about something that always haunted me as an atheist: demonic possessions, i know that atheists generally say that we can't really trust our minds and that most famous cases regarding that kind of supernatural stuff can usually be explained rationally.
But, even though i believe in those explanations, i still think that there's something wrong, and as i said before i find myself quite often fearing what the Bible depicts as "evil". Here in Brazil we have influence of african religions, we have Candomble and Umbanda, and usually what happens in the "terreiros" of Umbanda is refered as demonic, people doing things totally out of the human capacity and stuff.
What can i say to my father and other people who claims to have seen these horrible things?
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It isn’t exactly the same, but I suffer from some undiagnosed mental disorder, it causes me great fear and paranoia, as well as hallucinations sometimes while smoking marijuana. I don’t talk much about it, but every day I struggle with some sort of devil or demon attacking me making me uncomfortable, fearful, and anxious. I know and understand it’s all in my head, mental disorder, but that doesn’t stop the fear deep in my brain. All I can do is use rationality to keep a handle on it and I’ve come to terms with the fact that I’ll struggle with this for life probably. It’s disheartening and scary, but I know deep down that logic, rationality, and skepticism will keep me sane. You have a choice to believe in superstition brought on by tricks to the brain, emotional response, or shock/fear response. The brain is known to have delusions, hallucinations, and respond to optical or auditory illusions. This happens even in normal brains when under stress. Hold onto your skeptical mind, don’t buy into demons or ghosts or what have you, all are just physical events that tricked the brain or events the brain simply created to fill gaps of understanding. Treasure facts, dispose of wasteful superstion. It will just get in the way of living in the real world.
Hi BrendaMarzipan,
I can relate to what you are going through. I am also Brazilian, but I live in the Netherlands. I became atheist about a year ago. I was a evangelical christian for over 13 years. I attended all sorts of churchs in Brazil such as baptists, assembly of god, neo-pentecostal, and so on.
I had personal experience seeing "demon possessed" people. Once, a pastor went to my house to pray for my mom and she started shaking and spoke out loud "I AM GOING TO KILL HEEER". Also, my church promoted Jesus camps (in Portuguese it would be "encontro com Deus") where you are taken 3 days to a separate place to be indoctrinated. During these camps we would see demon-possessed people. They would do all the possible creepy things such as yelling, laughing in a sinister voice, fall to the floor, sneak in the floor like a snake, and etc. I used to believe all those things were real demons possessing people.
Now that I am skeptical, I no longer believe in such things. I lean on natural explanation. I came to the conclusion that, at least in Brazil, demon possessions are:
1) people with some mental illness
As our friend Chicken mentioned above, he also suffer from mental disorder. If he were not skeptical and attended one of those Jesus camps, he would very likely manifest symptoms of a "demon possessed" person.
2) people very subjective
I noticed that during demon possession sessions, usually there is some kind of music playing in the background and you have the pastor yelling suggestive things such as "demon, I know you are there, show yourself now!". Some people are very weak to these kind of things.
I believe my mom was subjective to the pastor's suggestions as he grabbed her head and was pushing it back and forth yelling to the demon get the hell out of her body. I think that due to these things she said what she said as if there was a demon in her body.
I also believe some people are unconsciously hypnotized. I am not claiming that pastors do it intentionally (some might do), but that's what happens. See this hypnotist showing exactly the same things you see in Brazilian churches https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c38nbEIdAfE.
3) people are paid to make it out
Bear in mind that some people will make it for money. Specially in Brazil. You probably watched demon possessed people being interviewed on TV by Edir Macedo (leader of the "Igreja Universal do Reino de Deus). Yes, there is people who are paid to make that shit out.
Finally, I'd like to suggest you a practical think. I believe your father is a good person. Knowing the Jehovah Witness religion, and knowing how the cast family members for apostasy, if your father hasn't cast you for no longer believing, I can assume he loves you above his religious beliefs. Anyway, what I was going to suggest you is to practice your skepticism by asking people (and yourself) a simple question "HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?".
If someone come to you and say that they saw a demon possession, you simply ask "HOW DO YOU KNOW IT WAS A DEMON?". Usually, those demon manifestations are not testable. Meaning, it is a personal experience that there is no way to check and also is solely based on the person's conclusion of what happened. Start asking people how they know those things, and you'll be shocked that usually they took these conclusions out of their asses, or because someone told them so, or because they watched something similar in a Holiwood movie and decided it was a demon.
Seek information. Look for scientific explanations. Remember, people in the past believed that convulsion, deafness, mental illness, and a lot of diseases were caused by demon possession. As science progressed, nobody believe these bullshit anymore.
I agree with Oten. Ask them what makes them think that you are demon-possessed. These “demon possessions” that you are describing might probably just be some mental condition that your family has misconstrued as some satanic woo. Throughout history, this mistake has been made all too often.
Demons don’t exist, but mental conditions do.
I can't really think of anything other than to say that you don't believe God to be unjust (that you don't believe in god is of secondary importance here perhaps).
The fifty-million dollar Question? Why must you say anything to them at all? Do you like it when they try to convert you? Don't try to convert the, If they ask you a question, front it with, "I will answer you as honestly as I can but if you get angry I will not talk to you about it any more." If you plan on talking to the religious you should familiarize yourself with the most common logical fallacies and understand that it is the person making a claim that has the burden of proof. If a person is supposedly possessed, how do you know it is not just them thinking they are possessed and then acting possessed or an actual possession? When people have been taught these things and around these things their entire life, they are easy to imagine as real. Knowledge is power. Don't think about those people out there. Work on yourself and those people will not matter as much.
@BrendaMarzipan
Your subject is interesting ... I was looking for the explanation for those stuff .. The best scientific explanation I found it called " The power of suggestion " It's a psychological term .. Our brains is really strong and powerful , The term explain the experiment when we tell someone that you have a devil inside you If he gonna believe in it then he gonna do such a terrible things - that's one of the reasons why I don't like religions cause it makes people believe in such a bad things - cause the idea that there is someone inside you and you can't control yourself that's the idea he got stuck with it .. And you gonna see such a subconscious reactions he gonna make it whatever is words or actions all of it were in his subconscious thing ... The power of suggestion is really important I recommend to you to read it and educate yourself with it ... Hope that was helpful , Love you .
It has nothing to do with suggestion. Group thinking in innate in the human species. Alone in the wild a human being is nothing more than a walking hamburger. We are not fast, we do not have claws, we do not have fangs or teath that poison or rip, we do not have the size or strength of predictors, what we have is an innate condition to bond with other human beings. Look at some research on "Group Think."
At one time there were 6 other species of human beings. We are what is left. It is believed that the other species went extinct specifically because of their lack of ability to bond with one another. Our species had superior communication, empathy and creativity. These attributes have been bread into us through evolution. Any member of a tribe that was unable to follow rules, get along with others, or respect the rules of the tribe were ejected from the tribe of killed. Only those humans with the ability to bond survived,
Tribes are held together by common rules, morals and beliefs. These are learned and passed on and change with time and the growth of the population as well as environmental factors, Even today, those members of society that lack the ability to bond. who steal or harm others are killed or locked away. They do not get to breed. All you have done is discovered the mythology of the tribe that you have belonged to and now you are looking for another place to belong. Human beings are social animals. Even those humans we excommunicate from our society form sub cultures with rules and a system of justice in the prisons we send them to.
Your parents, friends, and fellow Muslims belong to a tribe (A group). Leave them alone. They are happy where they are and do not want to leave the group. Work on yourself so that when you are asked you can have an intelligent discussion with them. Knowledge is power.
Well said @Cognostic ....
That's actually right I also think about it , Most of our reactions is more natural than we think .. You went deep with the structure of how people think what you call it "Group think " ... I just tried in the pervious comment to give an explanation of the psychic people there especially when he said
" But, even though i believe in those explanations, i still think that there's something wrong, and as i said before i find myself quite often fearing what the Bible depicts as "evil". "
So I think he still afraid of those because he didn't understand the psychic situation that some people suffer from it ... Maybe that's also has an affect by the "Group think " that you were talking about , Of course the tribe you're in has an influence on each person and some people are weak you can call them a victims of the society , that when the negative things in the society going in them .. That's one of the reasons that I'm with globalization and universalism thinking because when you look to the others you can free yourself you can know each one of us is a victim of his existence no one choose to be from this specific race , culture or religion ,etc that's gonna help to free your mind , for example why the Christians who think there is devil inside them they're being comfortable when they hear the bible , and Muslims who think there is devil inside them they are being comfortable and calm when they hear the Quran !! Same thing for other religions , why it's working by your religion only ??? And then each one blame that his religion is the true one !!! So I think subconscious has a role to do with this cause I don't think all of the people are lying no it's not some people just have a weak mentality that's it ...
BTW I talked with some of my muslim friends ( who I trust ) and went a debate with them , two of them are being atheists now , It's working honey but it's dangerous :(
Brenda: "What can i say to my father and other people who claims to have seen these horrible things?"
Tell them to give you some of that weed...
All joking aside. Don't say anything. Let them have their delusions. All I have ever done is present my logical arguments against "whatever" and if they still want to believe in their delusion, let them. The only time I may step in and do something is if they start using that delusion in an attempt to delude others. Then that falls under my "do no harm to others" Humanist belief. If necessary, I might even get the "authorities" involved.
Another thing I have done with Baptist Bible Belters when they start drifting the conversation over to their beliefs, I just got up, without any warning, and walked out of them. Two, three, four times of doing that, they got the picture to not talk about their religion. Perhaps this may work on your father. I know it is a harsh thing to do to family, but I have done the same thing with my family. I SHALL just walk out without any warning. A couple has gotten the idea, but most are just ...
rmfr
@Brenda
Do you fear hell?
Do you fear demons?
Both are human constructs, used to control people. What objective evidence have you seen that either are real?
As an Atheist, I live free of the guilt of sin and the fear of Hell.
Obviously i asked the wrong question, probably because of stress and nerves. The thread is not about my parents: its about me.
@Chicken : I know what you mean, i also have mental disorders and take lots of meds, i wouldn't believe if i saw a supposedly paranormal thing because i know i'm susceptible to tactile, auditive and visual hallucinations.
@Oten Oaoj : Nice to see another brazilian here. Just to clarify things: definitely not talking about Edir Macedo's "freak shows", Jehovah's Witnesses usually don't like evangelicals and catholics, actually they kind of hate everything and everyone, fortunately i was never baptized, otherwise my family would be obliged to abandon me or abandon the congregation since it would be classified as apostasy.
@Sapporo : But that's a different subject. I do think God is unjust and i'd never worship him even if he existed for the horrible things he done but there is a exception clause: if God exists, is powerful and acknowledged as bad, there would be no escape from hell apart from joining Him or showing resistance.
@Adonis : Goddamit im a she xD
@xenoview : Yes, i do. I know hell doesn't exist, but i can't help fearing it unconsciously.
Sorry for not answering everything, im pretty sleepy right now.
@Brenda
You sound like you are losing your religion. The first steps to Atheism can be scary. Being an Atheist frees you from religion and superstitist beliefs. You can always post stuff here at AR.
Hello Brenda,
I don't know if this helps but the idea of a person being possessed is another contradiction of the bible. If someone is out of control by being possessed by another entity, then they have in effect lost their free will. This idea of freewill is used by theists to argue for the existence of pain, suffering, crime and why god allows such things in the world! They can't have it both ways.
Lots of good comments have been made on this thread and it's unfortunate that we still live in a highly superstitious world.