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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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The beauty of facts is it makes no difference whether you disagree or not. A fact is a fact. The verse revealed over a 1000 years before Edwin made the "discovery" is a fact
The verse doesn't show what Edwin Hubble discovered, and the clue is in the word discovered. As usual you're taking the typical theist route of starting with belief and then trying to make the evidence fit it. The one word expansion in the quote makes your claim beyond tenuous even if we could take the translation literally, but we all know you have repeatedly claimed that the texts a) can't be taken literally, and b) can't be interpreted properly in English translations. now surprise surprise, when it suits your belief both rules you made are discarded on the spot.
What evidence can you demonstrate that any deity is real we're still waiting????
Subjective interpretations of archaic religious texts won't do it, as no book can validate it's own claims.
Searching for truth (check the X-Files, it might help),
Post Reference
51:47
And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.
SfT, do you understand what the usage of the brackets ([]) mean?
Those brackets are used to "add" text that is not there originally. Thus, 51:47 actually says,
And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are expander.
And by the way, if Islam believes Allah is a single entity and not a trinity, then who is the "we"?
If we is not Allah, then it must be you Muslims. And I definitely do not see you Muslims as being the expanders of the universe.
Are you sure the "We are expander" is actually referring to you "expanding" the influence of Islam?
Enlighten me.
rmfr
@arakish
Too much to type up on my phone so I'll keep it as short as possible.
Why Allah says "We"? Go to YouTube and search that exact question and you'll find your answer. From videos as short as 3 mins all the way to 20 mins.
Whenever translating from any language to another you'll lose meaning so you'll have to add [ ] to get the whole meaning. Arabic is the same if you truly want to learn the exact meaning and why this "and" was added you can learn Arabic.
"Go to YouTube and searc"
So in a thread you've started to imply you have evidence that atheists are ignorant of, your answer to questions is to link YouTube and let atheist do your research for you, and someone else to answer. One wonders why this thread is needed at all, and not for the first time.
"Whenever translating from any language to another you'll lose meaning "
So you're back to the risible idea that an omniscient deity can only communicate effectively as a monoglot. I guess we'll have yo decide for ourselves why you keep ignoring this point, yet keep repeating this absurd claim as if you hadn't noticed the response.
"you can learn Arabic."
An omniscient deitythat can only communicate effectively in Arabic, that's asinine.
@Sheldon
It is not the first time he is employing this tactic. If we had to do our serach ourselves, what the point on debating here?
If he's got anything tangible he's kept it a complete secret since he's been on here. It's the old theist trick, get them talking keep them talking but don't answer specific questions, just keep bring it back around to generalisations about the bible or the koran.
The only thing he's offered that''s unequivocal is his prejudice against transgender people.
SFT here are the questions you keep dodging..
Is it ever moral for 50+ year old man to have sex with a nine year old child?
What is the penalty for apostasy in Islam?
What evidence can you demonstrate to support your belief that a deity exists?
The more he ignores these the more ridiculous his spiel looks.
@ SfT
As Sheldon said. Why do I have to research it? I asked you to enlighten me. Not blow me off.
Reiteration: You have just proven that Allah is NOT omniscient. If it can only speak in Arabic, then it ain't a god by any definition.
rmfr
@arakish
Did not blow you off. It's much easier and quicker to watch a 2-3 mins video because it'll take me longer to type up an answer. If you're not willing to watch such a short video then I'm not interested in talking with you about something you are willing to put 0 effort in to understanding
To quote talynEarth03
If we had to do our search ourselves, what the point on debating here?
And adding, if you ain't willing to put ANY effort at all into explaining it to me, then you are a worthless pile of oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, phosphorus, potassium, sulfur, sodium, chlorine, magnesium, iron, copper, selenium, boron, chromium, cobalt, vanadium, molybdenum, iodine, fluorine, tin, silicon, zinc. (How's that for memory?)
Or as that mineral lifeform in ST:TNG said, "Ugly bag of mostly water."
rmfr
" If you're not willing to watch such a short video then I'm not interested in talking with you about something you are willing to put 0 effort in to understanding"
Then what the fuck did you start this thread for? It's as if you think atheists have never encountered apologetics before and will be bowled over by a 2 min video, or your grandiose claims. You have offered not one shred of evidence in your thread with evidence in the title. You've expended far more energy in your bigoted condemnation of others who don't fit the stereotype your iron age doctrine insists all humans must match. It's hilariously ironic, though I doubt you see it. You'll type small essays espousing hatred and intolerance, but can be bothered to offer anything to support the beliefs that motivate it. Next you'll be whining again that atheists are dismissing your beliefs without knowing what they're about. It's pretty typical get them studying the koran, that'll hook em, but it won't, as the posters here have nearly all shown they have the ability and the motivation to be objective and open minded, and examine all claims on their merits, and the evidence presented to support them.
Forget distractions and word plays!
Let's imagine scientists made extreme effort and finally an objective evidence has been found for the existence of Allah...
For me as an insignificant Homo Sapiens , it's morally wrong to burn terrorists , dictators , bloodthirsty criminals of history in hell for a moment , let alone for eternity ! and as a programmer if i code an application full of bugs and errors , i will punish myself for not being accurate and careful , not my laptop or keyboard or whatever! Human is buggy and biased , far away from perfect , and his will is not even free , why Allah insists that his creation is perfect and we must be punished or rewarded for whatever we do in this imperfect world? Is he zealous?
So having objective evidence of his existence makes my living a constant fear of a dictator. observing me from everywhere..hopefully it was just an imagination...
"When it comes to earth being 13.7 billion year old, as I said before it's irrelevant to Islam."
The threads off to a bad a start if an objective scientific fact is being dismissed irrelevant to your religion. Clearly it's relevance is that this scientific fact conflicts with Islamic creationism, of course as with other religions, some apologists are now trying to rationalise these traditional claims away as they see the relevance. Creationists simply deny scientific facts.
In regards Islam: what is "evidence"?
Like any other religion, if the facts are contrary to dogma, dogma is considered true rather than the facts. This is why you will find it hard to find common ground with me regarding evidence.
@ Sapporo
Islam has a long tradition of "evidence". Whether a rational mind considers it such is another matter, I had a couple of long discussions and several even longer debates about Islamic "evidence" with scholars from both major traditions for the existence of Allah and the truth of Mohammed's revelations. It makes very interesting study . I fear that it is exactly that direction that SfT is taking this thread.
Hate to admit it, but there shall never be any common ground, even if just evidence.
Please realize these reasons are ONLY general in nature. They are taking the "average" so to say since the intelligence level of both Atheists and Theists can run the entire gamut.
Reason: Atheists will never accept the "word" of a theist. Theists will never accept any evidence that contradicts their beliefs.
rmfr
Addenda: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUQtqnmwDt4 (especially the first two minutes).
What evidence can you demonstrate for any deity?
Sheldon Sat, 08/11/2018 - 13:27 "What evidence can you demonstrate for any deity?"
Well SFT has had 3 days and multiple pages and despite being offered unlimited scope for what he considers evidence with this question he has not even pretended he has any evidence, is anyone really surprised?
"Quran states that "Allah created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six days" (7:54). While on the surface this might seem similar to the account related in the Bible, there are some important distinctions.
The verses that mention "six days" use the Arabic word "youm" (day). This word appears several other times in the Quran, each denoting a different measurement of time. In one case, the measure of a day is equated with 50,000 years (70:4), whereas another verse states that "a day in the sight of your Lord is like 1,000 years of your reckoning" (22:47). The word "youm" is thus understood, within the Qur'an, to be a long period of time -- an era or eon. Therefore, Muslims interpret the description of a "six day" creation as six distinct periods or eons. The length of these periods is not precisely defined, nor are the specific developments that took place during each period."
Again the first problem is how irrational an idea it is that an omniscient diety communicates as a monoglot. It also strikes me as irrational that an omniscient deity would communicate in vague riddles that can be interpreted to mean almost anything. Then lastly there is the obvious problem that the text vague or otherwise does not remotely reflect objective facts we have learned about the age of the universe, and the earth, and the fact that all living things evolved. Islamic apologists like apologists from other religions try to piggy back their beliefs on scientific knowledge but it simply doesn't add up.
To add to this, this sort of tactic of quran writers etc works well when books are rare expensive things and the majority of all people can not even read and write, and the only source of information on the subject came directly from the religious organization it self coming from the village religious leader that set him self up to be the ultimate undisputable source of all important relevant information.
In today's world with high literacy rates, books being cheap, and ofcourse the internet, this ancient trick no longer works. Just about everyone can read, nearly unlimited information is available to anyone anywhere. There really is no excuse anymore for anyone that can read and think critically to believe these ancient bronze age tricks of "divine sounding holy books."
And guess what it is changing. Rapidly. Those born of the internet and smartphone age are increasingly in great numbers distancing themselves from the religions their parents practiced, despite programing from a young age from their parents and peers and sunday/sunday school. The atheist standpoint is so compelling that for many younger people not subject to years of intense brainwashing can understand and readily grasp the atheist standpoint as the correct one in a matter of minutes.
If you do not believe me on the decline of religion as a whole, pick any large urban area in western europe or north america on sunday morning. Sure lots of cars in the church parking lots. A whole lot more on the roads or sitting parked at peoples places of residence. Looking at the big picture those "filled" church parking lots are looking like a tiny fraction of overall vehicle traffic in the area. I am always much more concerned about professional sports stadiums traffic then I am for church traffic on Sunday. People in general care more about how their local sports teams are doing then about some "god."
To kind of further follow Sheldon's reasoning (Reference, in case these get separated), why would an omniscient, omnipotent deity even bother with communicating with us insignificant and primitive and barbaric and asinine animals?
rmfr
SFT: Ex-Catholic/ Ex-Sufi Muslim here. Perhaps one way to find common ground would be culturarlly through cuisine if your background is Syrian/ Lebanese or close to?
@Chimp
Heck yeah! I love me some good Lebanese food! Yum!...*drooling*....
Searching for truth
Here is another reason there shall be no common ground on evidence.
Science believes nothing and requires proof of everything.
Faith believes everything and requires proof of nothing.
rmfr
Very good post arakish. It should be obvious why anyone would try and object to the request for objective evidence, and equally obvious why they would rule out science as a valid method for testing their claims. Common ground would require an objective standard, and yet both are ruled out immediately by SFT. He's clearly trying what all theists and apologists try, to build a case for their version of their subjective religious beliefs, but ignoring all requests for evidence, whilst pretending he has evidence that we are somehow unaware of, and yet which he won't simply offer up front.
@ Arakish (so called)
Ok hackers, what have you done with the real Arakish? We know you are hackers cos the real Arakish would have taken at least 300 words to say: "Science believes nothing and requires proof of everything.
Faith believes everything and requires proof of nothing"
I don't know who you are or where you are but you let Arakish go or I get Tin Man on your case....TM..put down that delicious looking meal, yes its an emergency, thats right...over here...listen, Arkish is in trouble I think, maybe Russian hackers or Trumps underpants have escaped, I don't know....thats it, put your food here, I will look after it...yep...bye *stuffs face with deliciousness* Mmmpth Tun Mun? Waht? Grrbbly mmmph mmmph *swallow* Yes...rescue him! GO!
Oh but, dead right whoever posted the above and ten thousand agrees anyway....
@Old Man Re: Arakish
*walks into room savoring a honey-dripped piece of baklava*.... Huh? What's all the fuss?.....*licking fingers*.... Arakish is fine. I just saw him outside.....*goes to window and points toward open field*.... See? There he is.....*turns back toward Old Man*....Yeah, he's just still feeling a little loopy recovering from his field tri-....*looking around confused*....Old man? Hello? Where the hell are you? Hey! Old Ma-...*sudden look of realization*.....*runs down the hallway to kitchen*....Awwww, damn!....*sees Old Man crouched on top of table in a feeding frenzy*......Hey! That's MY baba ghanouj! Put down that falafel!....*Old Man turns and hisses like a rabid cat, then turns back to the food*.... Oh, maaaan! And I was saving that halva for a snack later....*shoulders slumping*.... Aw, c'mon. dude! Could you at least get your foot out of that tray of kibbeth?!?... *throwing hands in air and stomping out of kitchen in disgust*.....*mumbling to self*...I bet he planned this....
@ Old Man and Tin-Man
You guys are just too much. If I keep tearing stitches laughing, I ain't never going to heal from those surgeries...
LOL ROFL LMAO...
By the way, Love ya...
rmfr
If Allah is the same God as the God of Christians and Jews then why is it that the Koran can be understood in just one language?
@David Re: "If Allah is the same God as the God of Christians and Jews then why is it that the Koran can be understood in just one language?"
Because after Allah had his secretary write up (No typwriters or computers back then, remember?) all that nonsense in Arabic, he told her he needed her to write the same thing over again properly translated into Hebrew, English, Greek, Spanish, and a couple of other languages. She quit, right there on the spot. Didn't even give a notice or ask for severance pay. Simply put down her quill, recapped the ink bottle, gathered her personal items from her cubicle, and walked out of the office. Rumor has it she gave Allah the "one-finger goodbye wave" on her way out.
Naturally, Allah attempted to find a replacement secretary, but the temp service he used went out of business. He finally decided, "Ah, the hell with it. I'll just have to rely on those who speak Arabic to spread my good word. And, hey, at least I have Mohammed I can send down there to help them. Piece of cake, right?"
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