I challenge theists to argue that the source of their morality is God. I argue that they are using moral reasoning to explain how the violence , misogyny , and genocide ordained by their God in their ancient scriptures has become a message of peace today. Christians do this when they explain how Jesus taught a more forgiving creed than that commanded in Deuteronomy towards rape victims. Muslims do this when they argue that the days of rape and pillage enacted by Muhammed are over and the struggle today is a spiritual one. If moral reasoning is used to explain away the atrocities of original texts then moral reasoning is a superior method of formulating moral principles.
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Okay. First, though, what is morality? This is what I got.
Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior. A particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society.
Would you agree?
First , lets clarify that I was discussing moral reasoning. Your definition of morality is fine. My definition of moral reasoning would be a process used by an individual to apply his moral principles , make decisions and apply those principles , and try to uphold their moral foundation when challenged by difficult situations or perhaps appealing alternatives to their base beliefs. Reason may lead to change and an admission of ones former flaws. A morality based on scripture does not allow much wiggle room.
@Pathway Machine
Kenny/Donald.T is a troll, just like Nyarlathotep and they should be ignored.
"Okay. First, though, what is morality? This is what I got.
Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior. A particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society.
Would you agree?"
Morality is not just the principles, it is a way of understanding reality.
Mainly the comparison between 2 or more choices that are dependent on CURRENT knowledge and character of the individual to maximize the well-being for everybody.
EG
1)kill or not to kill another human being.
With this level of information, between those 2 choices , Not to kill is the moral choice to maximize the well-being of everyone.
If more information is given:
2)Kill or not to kill a man that if not killed will kill half the human race.
Given this information and those conditions, kill the man is the moral choice to maximize the well-being of everyone.
Thus morality is subjective to knowledge, person and situation.
There are situations where morality is not even resolvable.
3) save 5 people or save another 5 people
There is no moral choice between those 2 options.
Whoever thinks that morality is objective and can be written as fixed rules, does not even understand morality at all.
Jeff: "Kenny/Donald.T is a troll, just like Nyarlathotep and they should be ignored."
Pathway: Trolls are alright, they just get a little grumpy now and then from having to linger in the dark.
Jeff: "Morality is not just the principles, it is a way of understanding reality."
Pathway: I don't feel comfortable with using the term reality in that sentence. Too capable of producing armature eugenics. To me morality and reality are subjective. To me, morality is a set of - principles, will do, or laws, rules that are not so much fixed as a guideline to be used with temperance, mercy, fairness. And when it comes down to it, someone has to have the authority to judge.
For example, your second example, kill or not to kill a man that if not killed will kill half the human race. Apply that, in a sense, to Jehovah who destroyed all but a few to save the whole during the flood.
But the examples you gave sounded reasonable to me.
"But the examples you gave sounded reasonable to me."
It sounded reasonable because it was moral not because god said "do not kill".
God has nothing to do with morality.
"For example, your second example, kill or not to kill a man that if not killed will kill half the human race. Apply that, in a sense, to Jehovah who destroyed all but a few to save the whole during the flood."
I cannot apply that to Jehovah.
Why?
because Jehovah had more then those 2 options.
If I was god and I had no choice but to kill people, I would have just given magical heart attacks to the bad guys.
Spare the life of innocent babies
Spare the lives of innocent animals
Hell preserve historical sites and libraries :)
Well to be honest, I would not even kill anybody, I would just remove the evil in their heart and make them understand the importance of love and understanding.
But I happen to know that everybody that ever existed is a better person then the christian god.
I am sorry for you that you don't know such a fact yet.
Edit:
Don't you find it odd that in the flood god did not respect other people property?
I would be mad if because of some idiot that pissed off god, my house would be underwater.
It is simply unfair.
No matter how irrational these lines of moral reasoning appear I still prefer this to any evil idiocy proscribed in the Old or New Testament , the Koran , or the Baghavad Gita. As long as we humans can continue this dialogue we will have no further need to reference the Great Bog in the Sky.
Chimp: No matter how irrational these lines of moral reasoning appear I still prefer this to any evil idiocy proscribed in the Old or New Testament , the Koran , or the Baghavad Gita. As long as we humans can continue this dialogue we will have no further need to reference the Great Bog in the Sky.
PM: Well, that's the thing about morality, it is subjective. Today, for example, a 32 year old man having sex with a 15 or 16 year old girl is, in most places, pedophilia, but Joseph and Mary in the Bible didn't think that way. Homosexual pedophilia was not considered moral in ancient Israel, but it was quite common in the surrounding nations. They had specific temples where young male prostitutes were kept. The Roman Olympics was a pederast orgy.
Do you realize, though, why the nation of Israel was created? What it's purpose was? To keep this as short as possible and easy for me I'm going to leave out the scriptural references, but if you need those I can supply them on any given point.
Long before the earth and man was created, Jehovah Created his first born, only begotten son. Michael. Michael means "who is like God." He was called only begotten because he was the only thing in the universe that was created exclusively by Jehovah. Everything else that would follow, the heavens, the angels, earth, all it's inhabitants, including man were created by Jehovah through Michael as his mister worker.
The spirit creatures, there are trillions of them, existed some time before the earth was created, and they were created perfect. By perfect I mean like a new born baby, full of potential. As good as was expected by their creator. With free will. So they matured to the point that they knew the wisdom of their Creator, the importance in following his instructions, of doing things his way, of benefiting from his guidance and protection. The matured to the point where they could think for themselves by the time Jehovah created man. That's why the Bible says "Let us make man in our image." He was talking to the archangel Michael, who would later come down as spokesman, or the word, of Jehovah God. Throughout the Bible when angels had contact with men, for example, Lot, Abraham, etc. and especially as Jesus in the form of a man.
In fact mankind was Michael's favorite part of all of the creation. He just took to them for some reason.
Anyway. When Jehovah made man with the help of Michael, in their image, they too were perfect in the same way, and were intended to mature to the point that the spirit creatures already had. In the meantime they were to keep themselves occupied by subduing and filling the earth, so that it all would be a garden or paradise like the small area of Eden was.
Fill and subdue the earth and abstain from touching or eating the fruit of a specific tree, which served as a reminder for them that they needed their creator's guidance and protection. If they didn't do that, they were warned, then all sorts of things would go wrong.
Does any of this make sense? Does it sound like what you are accustomed to, and do you see where its going?
It makes sense as would a fairy tale. a beginning, middle , a plot line. Your creation myth is equivalent to all other creation myths.
Moral reasoning has been the basis of many belief systems that have been created.
My personal moral reasoning is fluid and dynamic. It is based on what the society(environment) accepts at the time with the caveat that I always respect nature and don't go along with the crowd if in my gut I feel the society is morally wrong. For example: Racism. Where I live racism is an institutional standard. I feel that it is morally wrong. I try to do what I think is right at the time..."do the right thing."
Honesty, integrity, compassion, charity, forgiveness, lawfulness, mutual respect, cooperation, consideration, education, fitness ,dutifulness, are all hallmarks that I way in each decision I make.
One hallmark in my personal make up is obedience, BUT I am not obedient to blind faith or peer pressure. In the USMC one of the general orders is to "obey all lawful orders." That means if you have been order to do something illegal or unlawful, you are not obligated to obey and are required not only to not obey it but report the order you have been given to the appropriate authority.
I faced a dilemma on my street that made me very unpopular in my neighborhood. One of my neighbor's teenagers was dealing drugs. Cars were coming in and out of the street at all hours of the day and night to buy drugs. I kept a vigil in front of my house and notified the police every time I witnessed a deal going down. The neighborhood felt I was harassing my neighbor and that it wasn't any of my business. I disagreed and persisted. Eventually the kid was arrested and the parents moved. I had had guns put in my face, my house was vandalized, and was ostracized by many in my neighborhood. To me it didn't matter. I did what I thought was morally right.
Being moral and true to one's self is difficult. As Kennedy once said "and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard,".
I have taken those words to heart in everything I do.
@ mykckob,
The Law of Moses was read to a gathering of all of Israel once they had established themselves. They were read all of the laws and they all chose to accept it. Once the Messiah came those laws were discontinued, though still kept as a guide. A Christian is supposed to follow the laws of the government in the land they live in, unless those laws interfere with God's. For example, mandatory veneration or pledging allegiance to a flag or statue or ruler.
I'm a homosexual, so when I began to study the Bible I had to choose between being a follower of Christ or a practicing homosexual. I chose the former over the latter.
Pathway Machine - "Once the Messiah came those laws were discontinued"
If you look out the left window, you can see any hope of objective morality fading into the distance.
I know the story of Moses. Nuns drilled into my head. It still doesn't mean morality comes from a god. I feel for you and you plight as a homosexual. You were born that way. You should not have to abstain from your nature to appease a myth. That is your choice.
BTW the supreme law of the land is the constitution. Your god does not come before the laws of the constitution. There is no higher power than the constitution.
mykckob, my point in this isn't that morality comes from God. I happen to think that a part of our morality comes from Jehovah, but there is also the morality of the world. The Law of my God Jehovah comes before the law of the land. Its above it.
Thanks for your sympathy regarding my sexuality, but I'm fine. I don't miss it.
The problem with people not understanding that the supreme law of the land is the constitution is that they will impose THEIR religion on everyone else violating individual rights. Your right to belief is individual. You can certainly believe that your god's law is superior than the constitution, but you cannot act on that belief. And that is the biggest problem with religion. The religious think that if they are not allowed to impose their belief on everyone else that their religious freedoms are being violated. Somehow they think that secular means atheist. They of course are completely wrong. All rights are individual. Individual freedom is supreme. It is superior than any laws by gods or religions. It is superior to states nations and corporations. Its superior to atheist beliefs. That is why this nation is secular. It insures individual religious freedom for every individual.