In my life, I have found that experience is worth more than any other commodity that one can possess. I have been all over the world and have enjoyed many many cultures. I have found that people are basically the same no matter their age, race, national origin, religion, gender, sexual orientation, sexual identity, language or anything that we define as differences. We all suffer the same problems, although we try to solve those problems differently.
Age and experience, in my opinion, are the biggest things that define a person. As people age, and have more and different experiences, their outlook changes. Some call it refined.
Also, I have observed that every society actually is much like any other culture. Take a muslim ruled nation. There are gays, atheist, in about the same percentages even though they are mostly underground.
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The term is AMPLIFY not AMPLIPHY.
16 huh? I knew it!
Before this turns into a fight I will hurridly say that I agree with both of you. We humans are incredibly similar, and it shows. The point about religions and cultures amplifying the best and the worst in us in right on. Nothing good comes from convincing the human animal that their father in heaven hates gays and will curse a nation that allows them to live. Once that happens, the faithful become a danger to the rest of humanity.
Hey Mykcob4, I should've directly responded to your post. I mostly agree, but am a bit conflicted. On the agreement side, there is a huge advantage in personally witnessing what succeeds and what fails, and the aged are the ones who have witnessed the most. Also, the Harvard psychologist Steven Pinker has shown that humanity is getting more and more peaceful, and he believes it is tied to greater awareness that comes from our greater inter-connectedness along with books and movies. These things allow us to see life from other's perspectives and grow our orbit of empathy to people we might otherwise consider as outsiders. The younger are, in my view, generally more purist in nature and less nuanced than people who have the benefit of experience. All of this supports your view.
The other side is from my own anecdotal experience. I'll tell a quick story. When I was young there was in my fundamentalist church an adult man who in retrospect was an atheist, or close to it. He was in my dad's adult bible study class and the man would comment about the logical inconsistencies in whatever the bible text was that was being discussed. My dad privately hated it, and the rest of the men seemed to as well. The men all aged together in that small town church, and as an adult I saw it still going on many years later. The wisdom that should've come to my dad (who loved me very much, so I don't mean to insult him) simply was not there. He was wise and he benefited in other ways to his experiences, but never on the critical question of theism.
You know, now that I've typed this it sort of makes your point as well! Hmm. I'm not sure what I think! One thing is for sure. Experience helps.
@Truett
You are a true thinker.
Even people with great experience have a hard time throwing off the shackles of dogma. Perhaps your dad and his friends never viewed things from an atheist perspective. Most religions regard any question to the faith as a sin punishable by damnation.
I agree with the Harvard study. People are more aware of the wider world but without direct interaction with that wider world that view the view is limited.
My experience of forever-being-atheist is quite small. I mean, sure I do get to distinguish stupid religious people, fanatic religious people and creepy religious people, but in the end, my life has been quite...hmmm, how do I put this.....separated from Religion.
Out of the current incarnations of Islam and Christianity, I think Islam is worse. Still, I'd rather die by the sword of Allah than the human bonfire of Yahweh. Christianity has been drug kicking and screaming into the enlightenment. Islam has yet to make that trip. They're both awful, and I notice that the US is capable of destroying all life on earth and is run by theocratic monsters. I'm scared of that. I think I'd be even more scared if our president was the Ayatolla, though. There is a constraining force within Christianity, which is admonitions like "turn the other cheek". There are precious few constraining passages in the Koran, but lots of "spread the word by the sword" encouragements for barbarity. I have to agree with The Friedmanite on that issue.
I have personally dealt with muslims. They are quite and tolerant people in general. I know very few christians that actually turn the other cheek.
That is important insight. I've only known a few Muslims directly, so I might be falling prey to the very thing I accused young purists of. Still, I can't help but notice that some sects of Islam are on the warpath and it is a real danger to civilization.
I'll be 65 in a couple of weeks. I've been a child and a parent, and now I'm a grandparent. The bible tells us to honor our parents. Through my experience of life, I've formed the the opposite view. We need to honor our children, and we need to raise them with free and open minds, to teach them how to think, not what to think, and to show them by example how people should treat each other. Forcing children into church is abuse. Children have rights. Parents have duties. Once your child is born, you're always a parent. It never stops.
I have notice that many people have made comments about islam and may not even know or have experience interaction with muslims. They are as peaceful as any other culture as a rule. It isn't their faith that is the root of the present day violence that inhabits the middle east. Yes, there is the ideological differences like Shia versus Sunni, and islam versus judaism. The fact is that the violence is because of decades even centuries of persecution and disenfranchisement. Historically islam has been the most tolerant of the major religions, the least being christianity.
I have lived with, fought alongside, and fought against muslims. They are no different than anyone else.
Look at it this way. If Vietnam was politically drawn as catholic against atheist, instead of a nation trying to unite but struggling for who or which faction would be in control and at the same time trying to rid themselves of French imperial rule, we might as a world claimed that the terrorists were all atheist in Vietnam.
The war with terrorism has virtually nothing to do with religion. Islam isn't any more violent than any other religion historically. The only area that islam is actually violent as an agent is in Iran and in Saudi Arabia.Their religious laws are barbaric and resemble dark age christianity.
"I have notice that many people have made comments about islam and may not even know or have experience interaction with muslims."
While you have a valid point about the benifit of knowing those who belong to the Ummah, it is important to note that the Ummah is not Islam. This is a very common saying among Muslims. So if one were to study the Qur'an and Hadiths in detail but never in their life meet a Muslim, they would have a very strong understanding of Islam nonetheless. Now is there a great deal of misunderstanding what it comes to Islam, without a doubt.
"It isn't their faith that is the root of the present day violence that inhabits the middle east."
This is true to an extent. It is unfair to say that the violence is only a product of Islam, but let us not forget that Islam is unique in that it is an all encompassing religion, that deals not just with matters of faith but with politics and almost every facet of life in general. It is sad that there is so much misunderstanding about this religion, because it is fascinating and worthy of study.
"The war with terrorism has virtually nothing to do with religion."
Here is where I mainly disagree,(assuming that you mean Islamic extremism when you say terrorism, and not like, the IRA) even if terrorists only use Islam as a means of propaganda, since it is Islam itself that is the basis for the propaganda, we simply cannot say that it has virtually nothing to do with Islam. I think that the question is not about how Muslims are in general, but to what extent they posses scriptural adherence? You can have a good person, who is a bad Muslim.
I'd have to half-agree and half-disagree with you. I do think their faith is the root of the present day violence in the middle east, but it's more the interpretation of their faith that hasn't received a modern "reformation". If I was writing quite a while ago, I'd have to say that the Catholic church was the most dangerous religion, or the interpretations of the holy books were the most barbaric. However, people do need to understand the differences between Islam, Islamism, Jihadism, and just an every-day Muslim. In short, Islam is the religion and doctrines derived from the Koran. Islamism is the ideology that drives people to strive to implement Islamic teachings (Sharia Law, etc.) into government or politics. Jihadism is the use of force to impose Islamism. An every-day Muslim is neither an Islamist nor a Jihadist, and I think that's something we all need to understand. An every-day Muslim may have conservative beliefs personally (homosexuality is evil, etc.), yet may vote for a law given equal rights to those who wish to, because the way they interpret their holy book is not to impose it upon others. Anyways, I hope this helped somebody understand the different interpretations or forms of Islam with greater comprehension.
@ Spicyharris
What you say is true. However, don't ignore the influence and the religious bent of the evangelicals and baptist. The white supremacist and arians base and justify their violence and hate on their religious beliefs.
I recently turned 26. Not as well traveled as those here who were born before me. I have had an opportunity to live around all types of people except Eskimos maybe. Also, my experience as a front office agent at an Orlando Florida Resort (in the Disney area) has exposed me to people of a multitude of nationalities, incomes, social statuses religions and creeds. Even Amish.
To all of you who may not have lived around Muslim people, I'll tell you right now that they are generally nice people. Super stern sometimes, but otherwise nice people who are courteous and take pride in their neighborhoods. The religion of course, is full of shit but the people aren't so bad. You guys have to remember, Islam is today's Batshit Ambassador, who took the title from Christianity and the predecessors before them.
@mykcob4 I agree with you that we are all the same. At least when it comes to innate emotion, and the need to help one another. yes there are selfish people.. but that behavior is taught. I will say that we do not all think the same regardless if we all eat, sleep, excrete and deal with the same issues. Why? Because.. and hear me out.. The way different languages are spoken. I'll argue that it is because of language that we do not think the same. Which leads to communication problems, which can lead to further conflict. The way different languages convey meaning, the way they interpret inflection and the way they are grammatically constructed cause us to think, operate, even perform arithmetic very differently. English is not such an emotional language whereas Arabic is. Which is why many Americans think Muslims want to bomb us whenever they hear them screaming something on TV. and honestly the media is to blame for that bad representation. Because the Muslims I know are peaceful to others.
Hey, Secular Son of a Bitch (I love writing that!), what a curious perspective. It strikes me as Noam Chompskey-esk. Thanks for sharing. It gives me a fresh perspective to consider.
Mykcob4: Darn, that is well said, and it covers a number of my concerns. A few remain. Two points: Dark ages christianity was as bad or worse, but we are in at least a temporary respite from that. Not so with a substantial portion of islam. The treatment of women in much of the muslim world isn't explained by colonial rule, christian cruelty and hipocracy, political and economic disenfranchisement or other outside oppression. Particularly faithful persons are reading their holy books and taking them seriously, and in such circumstances what a holy book teaches actually matters to that faithful person. Just like the bible, the koran is a grab bag of horrors. Inside those texts are warrants for the oppression and effective ownership of women, and a good number of the faithful take that seriously. Women in several parts of the islamic world will never know the basic rights and freedoms that they otherwise might have. It would've been as bad or worse in the dark ages under christianity, but fortunately for lots of women in the world we aren't in the dark ages any more. But those women being oppressed are being oppressed right now, and I am appalled and heartsick about it.
The treatment of women is one example. Apostacy is another. Dark age christians would run you down and burn you alive for leaving christ, so they were a nightmare. That isn't happening today, and there is little in the new testament bible that propels the literalists to revive the horror show. Apostacy is specifically made a capital offence in the koran, and the Pew polling organization and others have confirmed that a significant percentage of muslims agree with the teaching, at least in principle.
There are issues where christians are just as bad as muslims today, with treatment of homosexuals at the top of the list. Lots of American christians want them dead. Literally. They aren't being executed at the same rate in the US, and punishment isn't as severe in the US, but lots of christians are advocating for harse punishment. So I think you're correct on a number of fronts.
My anecdotal experience is limited on a most things, but I've spent a lifetime watching grown men tie themselves into neurotic knots trying to reconcile their lives, priorities and actions with the words of jesus. They're reading what this mythical jesus supposedly said, and jesus comes across at times as a peacenik pacifist communal racist end-of-the-world doomsdayer. What they do not find is a warlord who was taking slaves and taking territory and takjng heads. I have to think that as bad as the new testement is, life in christendom would've been worse if jesus was all of those things. Mohammed was.
There is real wonder on the part of rational humans at what in the hell is going on inside religious peoples' minds. It is commonly held that most if not all religionists are cynically using religion to one degree or another. If that were the universal case we wouldn't have to be overly concerned about a lot of the specific texts. But I am perfectly convinced that a sizable portion of religious people are genuinely persuaded that god exists and that they have his directions in their holy books. So what those books say matters.
Consider the suicide jihadist. There are military examples of people who kill themselves in a suicide attack; kamikazees come to mind, and who knows how many brave soldiers essentially committed suicide to save their comrades or their country. It can, in my view, even be noble and a pure act of love and ultimate commitment. What is of a different order though is to hear sunni suicide bombers describe why they are about to commit suicide. It is to have 72 virgins to rape for an eternity. That's not in the koran, but it is actively taught to the religionists within their walls, and those young men believe it. They might be partially motivated as well by the legitimate grievances you alluded to, but that isn't what they announce. They are serious about their beliefs.
I believe you are largely correct in your position, but I disagree on how importantly their strictly religious motivations factor in. I'm paying attention to how hindus treat women, how followers of judaism racistly view others, how catholics order priests to be celibate and live with little boys, how protestants have turned christianity into a money making scheme, and how some muslims order their lives as well. And I'm concerned about it all. I'm not trying to pick on any group; I'm trying to keep track of my surroundings, and any group that presents a threat gets some of my attention.
I know I've argued a lot here, but don't think that I'm not moved and persuaded by your argument. I am. Mostly. I'll endeavor to paint with a smaller brush in the future when I write about islam.
I just turned 50 earlier this month. Life has taught me that religion is bad for people. It seeks to control what they think, and take their money when it can.
I have been alive for more than three score years....
What have I learned ..........
Speak little and only when you have something worth saying .......
Listen always ...... even to fools...
Study and Learn everything you can.
Concerning Islam ....... it is no better or worse than any of the Abrahamic religions .....
the Jews claim a vicious and bloody conquest of the Canaanites ...... but it does rather look like it didn't actually happen ...
the Muslims ,periodically ,burst out of their homelands and spread death and terror over wide areas... but soon subside and return to their internecine squabbles ...
the Christians also fight amongst themselves ... as well as occasionally slaughtering Jews ..... as well as invading any "empty" territories that they happen across .. slaughtering any indigenous peoples they meet while gifting the benefit of their "faith"....
But if you count up the mounds of dead......the Christians win ...hands down....
No the Moslems are far from the worst .... some of them are just the worst NOW ...... but in terms of history they're just beginners.
Good points, one and all. Well said.