http://www.mljtrust.org/sermons/the-ignorance-of-man/
Religion is often a great hindrance to genuine Christianity and it is a stumbling block for non believers. Many people believe that Ignorance is the only reason anybody can be Christian. The unbelieving world's attitude toward Christianity is one of ignorance. Often that ignorance masquerades as religious pride. In this message, Martyn Lloyd-Jones opens the Scriptures to address the question: What is the answer to human ignorance? Is Ignorance the only explanation for the existence of Christians? Will knowledge someday in the future end Christianity?
Listen to this message and share your thoughts.
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faith is something you experience. I bear no grudge for those who don't (or those who deny they have). We're just people, nothing more.
Pardon me, but what the...?
The recording sounds like it was made on a wax coated cylinder, by an excruciatingly boring Monthy Python character.
"genuine Christianity"
What the *bliip* is that supposed to be? And who gets to decide what is genuine?
"The unbelieving world's attitude toward Christianity is one of ignorance."
On the contrary, my experience is that it's the other way around.
Talk about pissing into the wind...
"What is the answer to human ignorance?"
How about education? Spreading of knowledge? Teaching people to think for themselves?
He sounded like he'd had a couple of martinis, too. Lol.
Education is the answer? Germany before World War II was the most advance society and look what they did.
Spreading of Knowledge should begin with "know thyself"
Man is being trying everything to improve its condition and look where we are heading.
Professor Fears "the one thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history"
What happened to Germany is a result of what happens when a religion promotes the idea of hate towards the Jews.
Then all Jews were punished for the doings of the few because Christianity looked down on all the Jews.
Even though you would not admit it, but the church sided with the Nazi in world war 2 against the Jews.
After the war it also helped to smuggle Nazi war criminals escaping justice.
The Vatican help Germany, it's a fact of history, I don't know who can argue against that.
So religion is the explanation for what happened to Jews, then what explains what happened to all other minorities, the polish, the Russians, and the disable. More people from other ethnicities were killed than Jews.
In Ancient Rome when a victorious general would ride through the streets in a chariot wearing a laurel wreath and a purple toga, with a slave holding a golden crown over his head and whispering in his ear, 'Look behind you; remember, you are only a man.'
The Pope is just a man, we all are.
The Grace of God is so abundance than even the Pope can be saved by the blood of Jesus.
"More people from other ethnicities were killed than Jews."
So???, but none were completely deported and put in concentration camps just because they were polish or Russians or disabled.
That is all the hate built through Christianity for you.
Christianity is an anti-Jewish text and if you have been reading my replies to you, you know exactly why that is.
It is funny you mention the church as not being god, but only a man, because you do not follow the teaching of the bible but the teachings of the church.
Even if you would not admit it, the teachings of the bible are far different from your church.
there is no mass there, no Christmas, no confession, no priests, no equality(slavery is accepted).
That is not what your church teaches and yet you follow your church and not the bible why?
Because you are a christian by name and a follower of men in reality.
Just like a sheep following the the Shepard, you have no clue where you are going but the Shepard supposedly does.
That is why you and all Christians do not follow the bible but follow the church.
That is how you are controlled.
I can't speak for all the bible, Paul was pretty anti jewish, but in one of the gospels it is claimed that Jesus said of those that sent him to die "forgive them, for they know not what they do"
so?
That is a joke too, it amplifies the message that the Jews "do not know what they are doing". Do not listen to them, they even crucified their own messiah.
Thus amplifying the hate one has for people who "do not know what they are doing" when hurting innocent people.
Do you love and accept a psychopath that "does not know what he is doing" or do you keep him in check or close him up, like Hitler did with the Jews?
Hitler really believed that the Jews were not worth of anything, he was pissed when Jews had positions of authority and screwed up for all Germans.
One such example was when one Jewish general in the German army just gave away German territory to the enemy for free without consulting with the proper chain of command like any other "TRUE" German would.
For him the Jews were not True Germans(fallacy there on Hitler part), they did not have the pride required to be a German citizen and thus decided to remove all Jews from Germany.
The truth is that the Jews are smarter and more reasonable then most of the Germans at the time, which still thought of themselves superior to everybody else as a whole.
Edit:
Also if one thinks about it a bit, the Jews had no say in the matter but god engendered the Crucifixion, the Jews were just the tool of god's own perverted plan. Christians should actually be thankful to the Jews for helping god with his plan.
Though that is how a sane person would see it, not a Christian up until the time of WW2 for sure.
Jeff, you bring up some good points. I really don't know the Bible and especially don't know church history, so I will have to get back to you on that one.
But the way I always interpreted it was that Jesus was Jewish and so were the first Christians. So......... why hate the jew??
"why hate the jew??"
yea that is the norm now but if you study history, you will see that Christians(roman influenced descendants) hated the Jews for various reasons, one of them was that they crucified Christ, others very and include these claims:
-They were always wrong against Jesus arguments thus hindering the faith.
-They provoke wars and division while Christianity promotes peace. They are the enemy of peace.
-They take other people's land(Nazi German Christians thought this)(even Muslims today)
-etc.... you can google it and see why yourself.
Now I am not saying that these claims are true, actually they are not but since religios people are easily manipulated they were convinced they are through the faith.
Christianity and Islam are two religions of MANIPULATION.
Very useful for empires that created them.
so that was the believe then but not now. what changed?
Nothing really, any new leader may revive any claim he wants through faith depending on the needs he has.
The bible needs to be looked not as an unreliable contradictory book for one purpose.
But as a tool box with different tools for different purposes.
If you want to manipulate people who are aggressive you need to inspire them(attract them) with the violet passages.
If you want to manipulate people who are passive you need to inspire them(attract them) with peaceful ones.
There was never any intention by the authors to be consistent.
But have a bunch of tools a preacher could use in his sermons in the town square.
(which evolved into a church when the money started to roll in)
Eg:
If I wanted you to become a christian and I know you hate your brother because of inheritance that he will keep all for himself.
I would not read to you the passage where you have to love everybody like yourself and forgive every time because that is not what you want to hear.
I would instead read to you the passage where you must hate your brother and everyone and follow god.
Then if you end up killing your brother for inheritance(very common in that time), I would read to you the part where if you pray for something god will give it to you.(then share everything with the poor = church)
If you on the other hand you decide to forgive your brother regardless and not get rich, I would read to you the part where it is impossible for a rich man to get to heaven and then read you the part about forgiveness.
It is really all just to make you a christian, regardless of situation and choices you make.
As long as you are a christian, you have to follow the chain of command from preacher/priest to the pope/emperor = you do not revolt against Rome.
"so that was the believe then but not now. what changed?"
As i said, noting in the text, it is just that most people are passive now, and thus they would like to hear passive parts, and that is what the church leaders or preachers tell them.
And then you have atheists constantly pointing out the other aggressive parts and theists ignoring them simply because that is not what they want to hear.
It is all about attracting the people by using what they want to hear.
You understand that most Christians in the United States are not Catholics right, I am not a Catholic. We don't follow a men, and the real meaning for church is the assembly of the chosen ones, we don't go to church, we are the church, the ecclesia of the saints.
As far as I know most Christians do go to church, maybe not a Catholic one but most Christians do go to their local church.
I know you were told you are the church because it makes you defend the church as if you are defending yourself.
It is all part of the psychological abuse you suffered when you were a kid.
Instead of analyzing the fact that there is a distinction between you/god and the thoughts the physical church leaders told you about this god.
You are followers of the church/institution, you are not the church, never were and never will be.
The moment you will try to be you will create another denomination of Christianity which will have its followers and they will follw your rules your ideas, not their own, they will never have a say in the matter.
Eg: when was the last time you had a say if to eat meat on Fridays or not?
Church leaders decide and revoke rules of the church, you are a mere sheep that needs to be humble like a slave and accept what the leaders say because they know god better then a filthy sinner like you.
The moment you accept the concept that you deserve to be a slave, is the moment you leave the rules for the leaders to decide them.
But it does make you feel better to think you are part of something big doesn't it?
@Applegene
Okay, you not a Catholic, but why won't you tell us what denomination of Christian you are then?
Applegene - "Germany before World War II was the most advance society"
Unilineal evolution much?
"Many people believe that Ignorance is the only reason anybody can be Christian."
not really, some are mentally damaged that cannot even understand they are ignorant.
I call it: artificially made stupid through indoctrination.
It is when you arrive at the state where you decide out of your own will to refuse to see anything that might compromise your blind faith.
It is much worse then just "ignorant but willing to learn" and this bunch are beyond hope.
Avoid at all costs.
Then there are those that prefer to be a hypocrite with themselves and others to live happy believing good things no matter if they are true or not.
Those people are not hopeless but the hardest to deal with since they see you as disturbing their happy life and their god(themselves).
Apologetics tend to fall here, and you end up hearing some of the most ridiculous propositions to excuse their god from his nature, evil.
"Will knowledge someday in the future end Christianity?"
Surly but not on it's own for sure.
Hard work to educated the people and the removal of indoctrination of innocent kids are surly more effective.
The knowledge is there, it is religion that makes people ignore it by attacking doubt and call it a sin.
@Applegene
Since you are not only a Christian, but a "genuine" Christian, part of the correct denomination (I'm guessing protestant evangelical?), the select few who actually know the real truth, perhaps you could answer my questions...
What makes you believe that the Bible is true, and that your particular denomination knows the real truth that others do not?
“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (repentance) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
John 3:5 KJV
http://bible.com/1/jhn.3.5.kjv
We don't make ourselves Christians, I didn't wake up one morning and decided to become one.
Two persons listen to a sermon and at the end one steps forward and accepts Jesus as his savior, to whom do we give the credit? Is it perhaps that he is more intelligent than the one that didn't accepts Jesus, or maybe because he is just a better person.
No, all the credit goes to God, he choose me, he predestinated me, he opens my mind, he gives me new life, I don't improve my condition, I am a new creation.
And for the first time I see my condition as a helpless, hopeless sinner and I say:
Save from wrath and make me pure.
Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.
Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to Thy cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress;
Helpless, look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die.
And as a new creation I find his will, eternal plan, blessings and his mind in the Bible.
“In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins,
according to the riches of his grace;
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will,
according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:”
Ephesians 1:7-9 KJV
http://bible.com/1/eph.1.7-9.kjv
By the way we study not only the many translations of the Bible which cannot be perfect because they are translations, but also the Greek and Hebrew surviving manuscripts.
“Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.”
2 Corinthians 3:6 KJV
http://bible.com/1/2co.3.6.kjv
Applegene - "Two persons listen to a sermon and at the end one steps forward and accepts Jesus as his savior, to whom do we give the credit? Is it perhaps that he is more intelligent than the one that didn't accepts Jesus, or maybe because he is just a better person. "
I would suggest more because the person who 'accepted' it is more gullible.
@Applegene
Thank you for the reply.
No offence, but I was asking you, not Jesus or the Bible. Nor did I ask for a sermon, instead I was trying to get your personal opinion, your personal conclusion as to why you think your religion/denomination is the correct one.
What particular denomination do you adhere to?
"all the credit goes to God, he choose me, he predestinated me, he opens my mind, he gives me new life, I don't improve my condition, I am a new creation."
This actually sounds like you are saying that you are a mindless drone? You can't mean that can you?
Were you not involved at all when you were "chosen"?
"as a new creation I find his will, eternal plan, blessings and his mind in the Bible."
But, you would not say what makes you think the Bible is true to begin with.
Do you only believe in the Bible because someone told you that it is true?
"By the way we study not only the many translations of the Bible which cannot be perfect because they are translations, but also the Greek and Hebrew surviving manuscripts."
Who are the "we" that you refer to?
It's interesting that, if as you claim, you actually study the the surviving original scriptures in Koine Greek, biblical Hebrew (and biblical Aramaic?). Then you are aware of the multitude of problems and questions surrounding the compilation of the Bible? Like translation problems, discarded texts, questionable authorship, etc?
"all the credit goes to God, he choose me, he predestinated me, he opens my mind, he gives me new life, I don't improve my condition, I am a new creation."
Then why doesn't he do this to/for everybody? "God has a reason" is obviously not an answer in this case, so I'd love to hear. Cheers!
no offence, applegene, but you sound brainwashed.
I am not writing to you to win an argument or that by using my knowledge or logic demonstrate my case and make you a Christian, I don't debate God.
The Apostle Paul was trained not only in the Jewish law but also in Greek philosophy, but when he writes to his fellow Christians he said:
“For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.”
1 Corinthians 2:2 KJV
http://bible.com/1/1co.2.2.kjv
He could have use his immense brain power and try to use philosophy to explain the Gospel, but he doesn't do it, not only that but tells his young son in Christ Timothy to stop those who are teaching a Gospel mixed with philosophy and Jewish law. The same one you find every Sunday morning on TV.
“For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:
not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness;
but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise?
where is the scribe?
where is the disputer of this world?
hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?”
1 Corinthians 1:17-20 KJV
http://bible.com/1/1co.1.17-20.kjv
I am not brainwash but you could call me a fool, A fool in Christ.
ok applegene. You do realize the name of this forum is the DEBATE room?? The purpose of this room is to debate, not just put up your opinions to expect them to believe them for no particular reason.
And I am a Christian. I just haven't become a mental vegetable as you seem to have
VPT, you are a xtian? Not according to your profile.
LOL "mental vegetable",never heard that one before.
"You do realize the name of this forum is the DEBATE room?? The purpose of this room is to debate, not just put up your opinions to expect them to believe them for no particular reason."
Well said.
This comment:
“For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.”
1 Corinthians 2:2 KJV
Absolute rubbish, closed-mind idiocy. Go back and live in the cave.
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