...and could ask Him only two questions, what would they be? Yes, it's a cliche question, but I am curious. We'll assume that He is the God of the Bible, for sake of consistent discussion. So if you're at all interested in doing this, and give me legit questions, I'll try to come back with legit answers from the Bible, as best as I understand it. It may very well be that you learn something you didn't know, and it'll also give me a great opportunity to hear some of the main opposition to my beliefs, which I'm open to exploring.
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"Why did you make me short-sighted?"
"Why did you give me back pain?"
And don't tell me it was bad fucking design!
"Fuck you" and "Fuck you".
1. What was the point of telling us in Timothy the a pastor should be above reproach and then letting there be preaches like Bakker, Graham and a disturbingly large number of catholic priests?
2. Who the fuck do you think you are? God or somebody?
1. The point was so we could recognize faulty teachers and avoid them, as you have done here.
2. Yes. "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh." - Jeremiah 32:27
Hmm. Well answer #2 is clearly dismissable, but I will have to take #1 under advisement.
Making the imaginary leap...............to god:
Why did you create Satan?
Why do you coerce people?
1. This is a good question! The Bible really doesn't say much about that, so I'm going to have to plead ignorance. There is intimation that Satan was originally an angel, and so it is assumed that Lucifer was originally created to praise and obey God.
2. Not sure specifically what you're referring to. But from what I understand, God does not coerce anyone. "How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!" - Matthew 23:37. God often lets people do things He does not want them to do, and thus does not force them to do something they do not choose to do.
From a bible perspective Lucifer/Satan is supposedly a fallen angel. As the god of the bible is supposedly all knowing, past, present and future, said god knowingly created Satan/Lucifer in full knowledge that he/she/it/whatever would be evil. Ergo, god created evil.
The coercion is obvious, the ultimate fine for everything and anything that god is supposed to disapprove of is eternal suffering. In other words, act as I tell you to act or suffer for eternity. It's interesting that this god of love can't convince mankind that his way is better but must coerce them into obedience with the threat of hell after he created Satan and his evil to begin with.
Hence my questions.
"From a bible perspective Lucifer/Satan is supposedly a fallen angel. As the god of the bible is supposedly all knowing, past, present and future, said god knowingly created Satan/Lucifer in full knowledge that he/she/it/whatever would be evil. Ergo, god created evil."
God does not speak of Himself as initiating moral evils. At least from His perspective, allowing free agents to choose evil and actually bringing out wickedness are not necessarily the same thing. Again, I have no idea about the in-depth reasons for God doing as He did. Regardless, the end result is that we are in need of a savior now, and Jesus Christ is it.
"The coercion is obvious, the ultimate fine for everything and anything that god is supposed to disapprove of is eternal suffering. In other words, act as I tell you to act or suffer for eternity. It's interesting that this god of love can't convince mankind that his way is better but must coerce them into obedience with the threat of hell after he created Satan and his evil to begin with."
Hell is a consequence of sin. Sin is the issue, and because of it, we have hell. True repentance would involve a turning not just from future judgment, but present sin. That's how it was with me anyway, so in that since, God certainly convinced me that His way was better. But even so, I don't follow your reasoning, considering untold numbers of people, hearing of the impending judgment, will still not repent. The very fact that people will go to hell indicates that ultimately, God will not coerce us. That might be the most frightening thing of all. God honors our choices enough to let us perish over them. Also, the fact that people end up in hell is not a sign of God's impotence, but the depth of man's waywardness.
God created "EVERYTHING".
So god created evil and god created sin. Without god's creation there would be neither evil or sin.
Hell was created by god when god knowingly created evil by creating Lucifer.
Had god not created evil there would be no way to turn away from him because there would be no alternative to turn to.
Also, god damns his own creation. Since god is all knowing, he knows what your choices will be. If your choice is to turn away from god then god knew, before he even created you, what your choice would be.
Ergo, god knew you would make the choices that damned you so he damned you by creating you. Free will, isn't free will when the outcome is preordained because god knows the outcome prior to his creating.
"God does not speak of Himself as initiating moral evils."
That he doesn't speak of it is not to say he didn't do it.
What the Bible seems to indicate is that God left His creation open to change from agents who could choose evil. Evil isn't a force or an entity to be created. It's anything that deviates from God's character. He did not create anything that was originally deviant from His character, but He did leave some of His creatures open to the possibility of becoming that way. If a child breaks a window, we don't blame the parents for it because they created the child that made the mess. But yes, the ultimate question of why He allowed for free agency at all is not fully revealed to us in Scripture.
Also, God knowing what we would do does not mean He made us do it. I could know, for example, that if I vacationed in Paris, I would visit the Eiffel Tower. But that wouldn't mean I would be forced into visiting the Eiffel Tower. God knows us, and He knows that under certain circumstances, we would freely choose certain actions. This has been termed God's "middle knowledge" by theologians, and seems in some ways to preserve free choice and divine providence and sovereignty. I haven't thought it all out though, so I can't speak for someone who holds this position tightly... It's just one way people have looked at it.
"That he doesn't speak of it is not to say he didn't do it."
True, but if we're discussing the Biblical God, we have to sort of stick to what the Bible says about Him for our information. Where else would we look? The rest is speculative about what He might or might not be. Which, admittedly, can sometimes be helpful. We just couldn't be dogmatic.
If there are agents who would choose to do evil and god created everything than said agents are part of the creation of god.
I did not imply that god knowing what we will do means god is forcing us to do it. I said, if god knows everything as it is claimed, then god knows the choices you will make and the eventual outcome, ergo, god creates certain individuals knowing full well that they are to be damned eternally. In which case, god damns certain of his own creations by creating them.
"True, but if we're discussing the Biblical God, we have to sort of stick to what the Bible says about Him for our information."
We cannot however stick to what the bible doesn't say about him.
Because the bible doesn't say something about god that doesn't mean that something said by man about god isn't true. In fact, the bible is man's speculation on the nature of god and interpretations of god's will interspersed with stories about christ and others which are taken literally or allegorically depending on convenience.
ImagoDei - "God does not speak of Himself as initiating moral evils."
ImagoDei - "so it is assumed that Lucifer was originally created to praise and obey God."
vs.
Proverbs 16:4 - "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."
Again should we take your word, or the bible's?
ImagoDei - "God does not coerce anyone."
vs.
1 Kings 22:22 - "And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so."
2 Chronicles 18:21 - "And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so."
Exodus 9:12 - "And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses."
Why do you always contradict your holy book?
"Again should we take your word, or the bible's?"
Definitely the Bible's, should they disagree.
"Proverbs 16:4 - "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."
This verse has been variously interpreted. First, it's important to realize that Scripture gives us its own limits for how far we take a certain concept. We know elsewhere that God made man upright (Ecc. 7:29), but they sinned and brought evil into the natures of men. Since then, God has allowed men to continue to be born, even though He knew they were wicked. The Hebrew phrase translated "hath made" is actually just the word for "to do" and can refer to a number of things, but mostly implies something He has accomplished or worked out. In that sense, God "has done" all things for His purposes and glory, including the appointment of an end for wicked men. Second, the verse states that the end God has appointed to wicked men is one of calamity and misery. They are chargeable and responsible for their wickedness, and there is a confident expectation that they will not ultimately prosper because of God's justice. He has declared that there will be an end to wicked men, and they will face it. The verse seems to be deal more with God's guidance of things to their just end for His glory. This is for our admonition. Like one commentator has said, "Men make themselves wicked, and God therefore makes them miserable."
"1 Kings 22:22 - "And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so."
2 Chronicles 18:21 - "And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so."
Exodus 9:12 - "And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses."
The lying spirit was allowed by God to bring about an end He desired, based upon His foreknowledge of what man would choose to believe. I believe the statement "thou shalt prevail" is a prophetic statement of something that would happen. There are numerous times, even in the New Testament, that we are told to test what we hear against the Word of God. Knowing that this particular individual had no heart to seek truth allowed God to be able to use his own foolishness against him.
Several people have mused about Pharaoh's heart. Some have said that God's hardening is similar to how the same sun can both melt ice and harden clay; it all depends on what your heart is like. Perhaps if Pharaoh's heart had been of a different sort, the weight of God's condemnation would not have hardened him but softened him. It's difficult to say. In the end, God feels free to use Pharoah's own wickedness for his destruction.
The bible isn't proof of gods existence anymore that Atlas Shrugged is proof of John Galt's existence.
The only thing that the bible actually proves is that the bible exists as a book.
""Why did you make me short-sighted?"
"Why did you give me back pain?"
And don't tell me it was bad fucking design!"
Quite the contrary! Actually, without a God, your pain would certainly be due to some meaningless physical mistake. But what the Bible says is that even our imperfections have been allowed and providentially guided by an all-wise, beneficial God, who can even turn problems for His good.
John 9 tells about Christ encountering a man born blind. His disciples asked him what evils had been done by him or his parents that caused him to be born that way. Christ rebuked them.
"Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: He is blind so that the works of God should be made manifest in him. I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night is coming, when no man can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." (vs. 3-5)
And then He healed the man, and God was glorified as people witnessed His power and His compassion.
While the Bible does not say why you specifically have back pain and short-sightedness, it does say that you have been created so God could show Himself powerful. It may be the He will take away your pain as He took away the man's blindness. It may be that your pain draws you to seek answers and eventually causes you to find Him. It may be that He wants you to exhibit His strength and patience in the presence of your difficulties. It may be that someone else you run into will have similar problems, and you will offer them the encouragement that they need to live profitably. I don't know specifically. I only know that there is a good purpose behind it, if you trust it to Him. Christ is still the Light of the World through His Word, and you can take comfort in its claims that His purposes for you are good. I urge you to seek Him out further!
Actually I know what happened. God threw the thing together so quickly that some things were bound to get messed up, and eyes and backs (and lots of other things) weren't done properly. Still, we're able to fix some of his cock-ups, so I can wear glasses and take drugs so that helps to fix it.
So from your answer, god made us suffer so he could look powerful?!? Are you serious? What kind of perverted power-mad lunatic would do that? You are seriously scewed up, buddy.
The Eye of the Python (NonStampCollector)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7yAEh-PU4M
1. "Why are you such a judicial douschebag?"
2. "Cant you grant me a wish? I want you to disappear"
1. This is hardly a legitimate question. I have no idea what you're referring to specifically...
2. "The Father has life in himself." - John 5:26.
"The living beings give glory and honor and thanks to the one sitting on the throne (the one who lives forever and ever)."
- Revelation 4:9
These verses seem to indicate that God is inherently alive and extant, and could not cease to exist anymore than He could create a round triangle or a rock so big He couldn't lift it. For God to not exist would be impossible. He lives and will continue to do so, so no, He won't disappear for you.
you are assuming I am talking to a christian conception of god
but I'll play this game:
1. Why are you such a tyrant?
2. Why is your design so tragically flawed?
"you are assuming I am talking to a christian conception of god"
Yes. I stated in the beginning post that this thread operates under the assumption that God is the God of the Bible... So yeah. Sorry if that was somehow unclear...
"1. Why are you such a tyrant?
2. Why is your design so tragically flawed?"
1. Again, specific instances you are curious about would be helpful. The Bible doesn't really talk about God as a tyrant in those terms, but I'm sure you have some specific account or idea in mind that would lead to this question...
2. I'm taking this as a reference to creation. The reasons that the design is flawed is because is was marred by sin. Romans 8:20 says, "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly." This is a reference to the curse that was placed on creation after Adam sinned. When sin entered the world, destruction and decay did as well. But the curse will be lifted from both our own bodies and from creation in general when God gives us immortal bodies and a new earth to dwell on. However, those without Christ will suffer the eternal decay of separation from God.
You want to believe that god is good, but the bible tells us over and over the character god does evil
You want to believe that god does not lie, but the bible tells us over and over again that he does.
You want to tell us that god does not change, but again the bible tells us over and over again that he does.
Don't you ever get tired of mental gymnastics requires to try to maintain these contradictory beliefs?
There's a good joke that covers this conundrum.
An atheist, a jew, a christian, and a muslim are all in an afterlife cafe waiting to enter the afterlife proper. After a short wait, and enjoying a hot cup of some drink, the cafe loses a wall, and pearly gates open wide to the four cafe-goers.
The jew, christian and muslim all fall to their knees, bow with deep respect and hail the god behind the gates with their various greetings, who they haven't looked at out of sincere respect and admiration.
They manage to look back and sneer at the atheist, the damn fool.... who hasn't believed in what is obviously before them.
When the three theists look up, to their bewilderment they find a god in bearskin wielding a giant hammer working at a forge behind the pearly gates, before them stands Thor, who was made ultimately divine after fighting the Midgard serpent.
"Foolish mortals," Thor exclaims, "You let mortals with books fool you into thinking that I wasn't the one true, beloved god made divine. I damn you, and banish you from heaven for believing in a false god."
The three theists are dropped from heaven, banished. The atheist continues sipping his coffee, then asks plainly, "I didn't believe in any gods whatsoever, why didn't you damn me?"
"Because," Thor responded, "You believed in no gods, therefore you didn't replace me with a false one. You are worthy."
....Skepticism would surely be rewarded, was there truly a deity, rather than devotional madness.
The OP is like asking what I'm going to ask for in my letter to Santa this year.
Why did you create death?
couldn't you just wait for people to be ready to accept you before separating them from their loved ones instead of making a deadline or worse, let people get raped and beaten before getting killed?
The entire death concept is pure evil, a benevolent god would never have created something so evil.
He would always have given the people a choice including not dying if they wanted.
Another question:
Why did Jesus need to suffer at all for an omnipotent being to do something?
Is seeing innocent people suffering a requirement or a liking of god?
Death is primarily pictured as ultimately a separation from God. It came about because man left God through disobedience. If a child puts his hand onto the stove and gets burned, the parent isn't charged with creating pain. It just happens when you put your hand on a stove. Likewise, if you abandon God, you die.
"The entire death concept is pure evil, a benevolent god would never have created something so evil."
Evil by what standard? There is no objective evil, remember? (Not that I disagree with your statement. Death is evil, and is being vanquished by God. I'm just intrigued by how quickly people start using these morally loaded terms when they apply to things like death and rape, and then expunge them when they want to justify themselves.)
"He would always have given the people a choice including not dying if they wanted."
Genesis 2:16-17 - " And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you must not eat, for in the day that you eat from it, you will surely die.”
John 11:26 - "Everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die."
God furnished us with a choice in the beginning, and offers us a choice right now.
"Why did Jesus need to suffer at all for an omnipotent being to do something?
Is seeing innocent people suffering a requirement or a liking of god?"
God is omnipotent in that He can do everything He pleases. It does not please Him to allow sin to go unpunished, so He could not do so. He had to punish sin. Also, He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and so offers to place the punishment elsewhere, namely upon Jesus. The crosswork satisfies both God's desire for justice and mercy. But all of this is merely surface level. The deeper reasons for the cross are not fully divulged, and we'll likely spend an eternity searching it out. In the end, what matters is that God has set up Jesus Christ to be the only means of salvation, and we must look to Him. It is not of ourselves.
"If a child puts his hand onto the stove and gets burned, the parent isn't charged with creating pain."
It would be if the parent was the one who created pain in the fist place, or how humans are made in the first place.
Your comparison simple cannot be applied to god since a Haman parent is not omnipotent or the creator of the universe.
If god wanted he could have not created death entirely and waited for us to be willing to join him rather then force us to do so by creating death itself.
"Evil by what standard?"
Morality is relative to something; "death" compared to "no death".
In the situation of a choice of creating a human who dies and suffers loss(separation) and a human who doesn't die, it is considered evil(worse) to create death.
Jeff-"He would always have given the people a choice including not dying if they wanted."
ImagoDei-"God furnished us with a choice in the beginning, and offers us a choice right now."
Is that even related?
That beginning you are speaking of is a fairy-tale and even if it did happen, god engineered for it to happen in that way, god put the talking snake in the garden and let Adam be deceived on purpose.
To make it worse, you seem to endorse the concept of the son paying for the sins of the father.
Only an evil person would make such a statement, in this you seem similar to your god, evil.
Jeff- "Is seeing innocent people suffering a requirement or a liking of god?"
ImagoDei-"It does not please Him to allow sin to go unpunished"
Which part of the word "innocent" did you not get?
"The crosswork satisfies both God's desire for justice and mercy."
BS, there is no justice in punishing an innocent for someone else crime, go learn what justice means.
That is called scapegoating, an evil desert dwelling practice where the sins of a city are put on a goat and then left in the desert to die. Jesus is the human Passover lamb. Human scapegoat.
Mercy is the opposite of justice.
There cannot be any perfect justice if there is any mercy.
Basic common sens you seem to not understand.
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