Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
Log in or create an account to join the discussions on the Atheist Republic forums.
Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
FREE E-BOOKS
Get the book "Why There Is No God" and one more book for FREE!
Sign up below for the Atheist Republic Newsletter to get the books.
Record Your Message!
Record your voice here for it to be aired on the Atheist Republic Voicemails Podcast.
Send us your views and opinions, your personal stories, messages of support, comments on recent news, or any comments you would like to share about your part of the world.
Note : By clicking record you are allowing us to broadcast your message on any of our platforms.
Affiliate Disclaimer
Links to atheist related books, shirts and movies and other atheism related products are affiliate links.
All proceeds will go to keeping the Atheist Republic website up and running; providing resources, advocacy, community tools and encouragement to atheists all over the world.
@Cog Re: "Tin Man is the color of a turd?"
HEY!!!... What the hell? You been spying on me before I put on my makeup every morning??? PERV!!!
I don't know to what extent that's true, but I do know the light that is visible to us, is coincidentally the portion emitted most by the sun. So in evolutionary terms, we are adapted to see the part of the spectrum that is most abundant.
However, I also remember hearing that visible light is better at passing through water than other parts. So in theory that's why fish and therefore us, evolved to see it.
If all of that's true... and the ocean is blue.. is that a good thing or a bad thing to be blind to blue?
What you heard isn't inaccurate.
No societal animal can survive without some concept of morality.
Survive? Well, we do have some amoral assholes locked up in little cells, still, I suppose you could argue that they do have their own sense of justice and morality that tends to be very much detached from societal morality.
Exactly so, they have to adhere to a strict moral code in prison, or suffer the consequences. A grasp of the concept of morality is unavoidable for any societal animal, if it is to survive. It's a shame more prisoners don't see their failure to adhere to societies morality as a root cause of their having to adhere to a far harsher and more cruel morality found in prison societies, and enforced with nothing more in mind than rewarding physical strength, and self serving brutality.
"Man is the measure of all things".
How we should act is subjective. You can only live by your own standard, informed by observation.
Ambrose Bierce's satirical work The Devil's Dictionary has the following definitions:
MORAL, adj. Conforming to a local and mutable standard of right. Having the quality of general expediency.
RATIONAL, adj. Devoid of all delusions save those of observation, experience and reflection.
John
Objective claims requires objective evidence.
We both know that morals are subjective.
@OP
As long as people believe morality is subjective and act on that belief, you will continue to “vacillate” and you will continue to find it “impossibly difficult to follow” as long as your main objective behind your acts of morality are there to please the person/people in front you/dealing with. Which is a high likelihood for the feeling of being a “hypocrite most of the time”. Maybe you are acting in a certain moral manner because you want the person in front you to find you moral? I am not here to argue objective vs subjective morality just giving my opinion of why you feel like a “hypocrite”. I have said it here before and will say it again, just because someone is an Atheist does not mean they are immoral. Just because someone is a theist does not mean they are moral. At the end of the day we are all people and flawed in our own way. There are moral atheists and theist, and there are immoral atheists and theists as well. Morality for the most part is not tied to religion and is something we are born with and also taught over time. I am pretty sure your parents never had to sit down and tell you “killing people is bad so don’t do it” that sort of stuff is something we are all born. Morality only becomes an issue when extremists on both sides (theist and atheists) try to dictate how others should live their lives. I am pretty sure if you put up 100 topics on morality, atheists and theists would probably agree on 95 of them. Issues such as manners, respect, honesty, killing, stealing, ethics etc… are things I am sure both sides agree on. The problem with the whole morality talk is that there are probably less than a handful of issues we actually disagree on, and we let those few issues dominate and cloud our judgement. My humble suggestion for the feeling like a “hypocrite most of the time” is do what YOU think is right and be consistent with it, be consistent with the what you have done and be consistent with the reasoning and logic you used to reach the action you took. Do not change your action based off what’s best for you rather, what you think is the most fair and just outcome for that particular situation. You do not need to be a theist, scholar or some world renowned theologian to do what is right. Trust me, you know when you do something that has wronged people and you know when you do something that was fair and just. If anything, at least have your own and personal “objective” morality, the reason I said your “own personal objective” (even though it’s the same as subjective) but, it’s something you can stick and stand by without letting anyone else tell you how YOU should be “moral”. I tend to have faith in humanity and have seen that most people, most of the time will make the right and best decision for all those involved even at times, at their own expense for the “greater good”.
@ SfT
Either answer, or disappear. Taking lessons from Breezy on how to dodge?
rmfr
When individuals follow an ideology that claims it is objectively moral to kill and/or eternal torture an individual, it is difficult to feel I have any common humanity.
Sapporo,
The Bible has a lot of stories about people being physically tortured. The interesting thing is that people can usually endure the pain if they are being tortured for a cause they believe in. But if they are being tortured just for grins and giggles they will crack under the pain.
Not to mention how they fetishize being persecuted. They think that this helps satisfy their insecurity in their inherently fragile beliefs, and this persecution fetish has kept Christianity in business since the First Century C.E.
Oops, did I just persecute some poor Christians by daring to type in “CE” instead of “AD”? Oh the humanity! I’m SO FUCKING MILITANT!!!
@ Rohan
Actually "CE" or "C.E" is the correct method. "AD" ceased being used back in the mid to late 90s. Only those who hold onto false beliefs still use the "AD" method. And yeah, it is probably so they can appear to be so damned persecuted that the American government allows them to keep hundreds of billions of dollars tax-free. Wish my ass was that persecuted.
rmfr
Is SAPPORO simply seeking a new identity or trying to hide from Tin Man. You don't have to hide. Sign the petition and live once again free from the rapier wrath of Tin Man's sharp wit and piercing tongue. Sign the petition - stand and fight! End your cowering existence, No real man should have to change his entire persona weekly just to avoid Tin Man's wicked devil-tongue lashing.
Morals? What the hell are they?
Do you think it is wrong to take someone's life? If you do would you rat out your most loved one for doing it if the person asked you to keep quiet?
Do you think it is wrong to rob someone? Suppose you found out that your lovely dear rug rat had been robbing people. Would you snitch on him out to the cops or would you zip your lips and let him continue to do it until someone else caught him?
If you cheat on your spouse would you get bent out of shape to find out that your spouse cheated on you?
Do you think "morals" apply to other people but not to you?
Morals, I believe, apply to everyone, to an extent. I try my best to adhere to what I think is right, because no matter how much I deny it, I believe some things are wrong and some right. There are many gray areas, like a spouse caught killing someone, or abortion, or any other time right and wrong seem conflated. As I said, I find myself being a hypocrite many times, doing something “wrong” out of laziness, a mood swing, or confusion. But that doesn’t stop me from trying to change myself into what I believe to be a better person, a more virtuous (not pious) person. I think it is important for everyone to set definite morals for things to use as a guide for their life. If someone wants to be a business man, perhaps he morally feels justified when overtaking small, mom and pop stores with his large commercial store. It’s a dog sat dog world after all. Everyone sees the world and people differently based on their nature/nurture and I can’t possibly know how to treat another person properly without knowing all there is to know about them. Therein lies my struggle with finding morals. You claim they don’t exist? Or that they exist as imperfect human constructs? I agree with the latter, but I believe it is the human duty to make the attempt to perfect them, even though we all know it is doomed to fail. Why I feel that need is a mystery to me, something in my biology.
Chicken,
Based on what you know about the biblical characters do you think you have better morals than they did? Do you have an opinion about who the person in the Bible is the least moral?
Diotrephes
Yes. Any rational free thinker would have better morals than any religious person, including those in that obsolete, completely irrelevant, savagely immoral Bronze Age text.
rmfr
arakish,
IMO the only major character in the Bible with any worthwhile morals is Job. All of the others need to be tossed into the lake of fire. They are disgusting creatures.
Job is moral? He worships the God that allows him to be tortured. He worships the god that kills his family. He then forgives the god who took everything from him and left him a disease stricken mess because that god gave him new stuff. What about the old wife and the old family? Well that was then and this is now. This is morality?? Not in my book.
Cognostic,
Job is the only real human in the Bible. He represents the universal man who endures all types of disasters and misfortune and who escapes the pitfall of falling into fatal depression. Sure, he could have blamed God & Satan for his bad luck. That might have given him some comfort but it wouldn't have solved his problem. Continued hard work and perseverance made him successful again.
When you see people on tv who have survived the loss of loved ones in disasters or mass shootings and who have lost everything in wild fires, floods, earthquakes, or wars and they say that they will rebuild you are seeing the spirit of Job. They have to put their misfortune behind them in order to live in the future.
How will you cope when severe misfortune hits you? Would you rather fall into fatal depression or would you adjust your attitude by putting your faith in an imaginary deity in order to stay sane so that you can continue to live a decent life? One day the shit will hit the fan in your life and when it does will you be like Job or will you go nuts? So far I have been lucky and haven't had any real misfortune. I like to think I will be like Job but then again I might go nuts.
Yes, surviving is a great thing. Especially when you have battled the forces of nature and come out on top; That is not what happens to Job. God releases his attack dogs on Job and decimate his life , his family, his health and his existence. God does this on a bet. And Job continues to worship the god.
So after years of torture, butchery, and disease being inflicted on Job by Satan with God's permission. Job says it is all okay and forgiven. God replaces the stuff he lost. Job and God are best buddies again. Sorry. No moral message in this story at all.
What kind or morals would the Jews have if they all just rolled over and forgave Hitler. Yea we know you killed our parents but you were just testing us. You wanted to see if we would still be Jewish even after you eliminated and tortured two-thirds of the population in horrible ways. It's okay, we get it. You are a kind and loving person um... God.
Actually, there is not one who is moral in the entire Bible. None. I'll get back to you on most of the major characters.
rmfr
Yeah. I’ve noticed that as well when I read the Wholly Buybull myself. And to think that the theists are constantly going on and on about how they have the monopoly on morality, love, compassion, and honesty. BULLSHIT.
arakish,
"Actually, there is not one who is moral in the entire Bible. None. I'll get back to you on most of the major characters."
Were you unable to find fault with Job? I didn't see him on your list.
@ Diotrephes
I never got that far before I got so sick I could not continue. Even with Ondansetron I got too sick to continue.
I might work more on it later. Just need time to recover.
rmfr
King James Bible Search Results "Moral"
0 Bible results for “Moral.”
There’s plenty of examples, I find in genesis alone that Lot’s daughters have intercourse with him to bear sons and Abraham sells his wife Sarah to the highest bidder every chance he gets.
Chicken,
Abraham & David head my list of the worst of the herd. They were rotten to the core. Why anyone would think that they are good role models is beyond me.
Pages