Hi all, wondering on what basis can one claim that religion is bad or evil. Where does this idea of good or evil come from apart from morality as revealed in religion?
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@ AJ777
Man is a co operative Mammal. Morals have evolved with mankind's increasing societal sophistication. "Good" was originally "good" for the welfare of the whole tribe (a small family unit) "Bad" was originally behaviors that threatened the tribe.
From there a whole moral and law based society has evolved. Nothing to do with any religion at all.
Religion is a static snapshot of a particular time period in human history, inaccurately recorded. It is mostly immoral by any modern standard.
There can be no rational defence of any Abrahamic religion's demonstrated "morals".
From abortion to genocide by way of infanticide, torture, lies, slavery and nepotism the two main religions of the world have it all in spades.
Let us tackle the morality question first. Many of us atheists hold to the belief that morals are subjective. In fact, morals change from culture to culture and over time. One example is slavery, condoned in the bible, and even practiced by many religious figures. But over time, slavery has been revealed to be an evil on humanity, and in almost all cultures, now considered disgusting.
If we still clung to the biblical interpretation of morals concerning slavery, it would still be practiced by too many cultures and nations.
Religion has done good over time, it has brought communities together, and allowed support groups to flourish. But those activities could have been performed by other organizations that could be secular. Just go to a dog show and you will witness a strong sense of community and fellowship, and no one is talking religion.
But religion has been the driving force in too many wars and horrors, from the Crusades to Cromwell to 911. Religion can make good people do bad things.
There is also the mental torture inflicted in children. Many are told from the first day they can comprehend that they are flawed and bad people, born with sin. That is an absolutely horrid way to treat an innocent child.
Religion is also divisive, it drives people apart. if you are not a member of a certain club, families can splinter. Brother no longer talks to brother, fathers disown their sons. They may forgive them for being a sex predator and murderer, but if they are atheists, then the door slams shut.
@ AJ777
To quote what Christopher Hitchens once said, “Let me just tell you something. For hundreds, even thousands, of years this kind of discussion would have been, in most places, impossible to have. Or, Sam [Harris] and I would have been having it at the risk of our lives. Religion now comes to us in this smiley–face, ingratiating way because it’s had to give up so much ground and because we know so much more. But you’ve no right to forget the way religion behaved when it was strong, and when it really did believe that it had God on its side.”
Just look at the history of the religions. In the past, for about 1200 years, Christianity was the most violent religion on this planet. Starting from 700 CE, Islam has also been the most violent religion on this planet. In our current times in the last 30 years, Islam has risen to be the most violent religion on this planet. ANY IDEOLOGY WHICH CANNOT SUFFER ANY FORM OF CRITICISM IS INHERENTLY EVIL. Pure Evil. Any ideology I may have may be freely criticized. In fact, I want it to be criticized.
Any ideology which preaches what William Lane Craig states, “Should a conflict arise between the witness of the Holy Spirit to the fundamental truth of the Christian faith and beliefs based on argument and evidence then it is the former which must take precedence over the latter.” And reworded as it should have been, “Should a conflict arise between the witness of the Holy Spirit to the fundamental truth of the Christian faith and beliefs based on argument and evidence then it is the former (Christian faith) which must take precedence over the latter (true truth and hard empirical evidence).” Any ideology which preaches this premise is again inherently evil. This form of ideology is as Aron Ra puts it, “Your position is dishonest because you’re not open to the fact that you could be wrong. You won’t admit when you are wrong. You believe what you do for no reason because you can’t produce evidence. The thing you’re promoting is not even possible, and it’s a logical contradiction as well. So you believe impossible nonsense for no good reason, and you want to use that as your defense that you’re being unreasonable.”
I have always said it is more important how to think instead of being told what to think. The Religious Absolutists' indoctrination program usually begins the training from early childhood through a controlled, systematic, totalitarian indoctrination process which utilizes mental rape, emotional molestation, and psychological terrorism when a child’s mind, especially in the ages of 4 to 14 years, is at its most susceptible and most vulnerable to cultural conditioning.
Religious Absolutists are trained to react to ideas, and to reject them no matter what they are told, presented, and/or taught. They are taught to never question their beliefs. Militantly trained to maintain and preserve the faith. And, due to this designed abusive training and indoctrination process, they shall do so with apologetics, beguiling dialectical semantics, distorted and perverted data, emotional whiny-ass pleas, and sometimes divinely-inspired violence. Worst of all, their conditioning is so ingrained that most never question why they need to defend their belief at all. This form of indoctrination, no matter its intended outcome, is actually “child abuse” in the form of psychological terrorism. All of which is immoral in any moral landscape. However, due to the First Amendment, religion gets a free ride to practice all the immorality they wish. One only has to prove it is religious to prove it is not immoral.
An indoctrination process which teaches you to never think for yourself, but to close your mind against all things except for what some sky-faerie in an obsolete and irrelevant and barbaric and savagely immoral Bronze Age religious text commands you to think. For me, that is the most heinous of acts, especially to do it to children. And no matter whatever you may say to the contrary, this is child abuse.
Thus, through the use of such an indoctrination program makes religion Pure Evil.
Show me any religion that is moral. There are none. Morality is entirely subjective. And if you try the bullshit of morality being objectively given by some make-believe Sky Faerie, you are entirely wrong. Any morals supposedly given by a make-believe Sky Faerie are still SUBJECTIVE in accordance to that Sky Faerie's will. Arthur C. Clarke summed it up nicely, “One of the greatest tragedies in mankind’s entire history may be that morality was hijacked by religion. So now people assume that religion and morality have a necessary connection. But the basis of morality is really very simple and doesn’t require religion at all. Religion is the most malignant of all mind viruses.”
Cognostic also summed it up nicely, “Someone once asked me if I read the bible, I said sure. Then I asked, “Have you read anything else?” ”
Thus, there is this one question. Have you truly read the Bible utilizing critical thinking, logical and deductive reasoning, and rational and analytic thought? If your answer is "No," then you should at least read the verses listed here.
Especially Christianity and Islam, religion only has those morals it decides fall under the Divine Command Morality defined as “The belief you Religious Absolutist Apologists hold onto that says that anything your God commands is good, regardless of its actual moral implications.” This is the biggest pile of bullshit I have ever heard. I found these two formal definitions for Divine Command Morality: “Morality is dependent upon God, and that moral obligation consists in obedience to God’s commands.” And from Wikipedia: “A meta-ethical theory which proposes that an action’s status as morally good is equivalent to whether it is commanded by God.” In other words, if “God” tells you to perform an ethnic genocidal cleansing, then it is morally good. To which I would say, BULLSHIT!
That Divine Command Morality is Christianity’s and Islam’s ultimate reason to persecute and harass and victimize and maltreat and discriminate and oppress and torture and molest and suppress and torment and subjugate ALL others who do not believe as they believe. And if they still refuse to believe, both Christianity and Islam have this Divine Command in both of their unholy texts: “You are to live in peace, love, and brotherhood, but only with those of like minds (beliefs system). All others are to be put to the sword (killed).”
Pure Evil.
Only those who are free and rational thinkers and choose to do good because it is the human thing to do are truly moral in my POV.
In summation, here is the copy and paste from another post I made.
WHAT I BELIEVE
Not only am I an Atheist.
I am also an Anti-Theist.
And an Anti-Religionist.
And I am a Soul Haunter.
I publicly argue passionately against any religion.
I publicly question any religion.
I publicly laugh at any religion.
I publicly shame any religion.
I publicly resist any religion.
I publicly defile any religion.
Why? Because I believe in something too.
There is no philosophical ideology more divisive than religion. Religion does nothing but pervert, demoralize, subvert, and bribe all persons with the belief that it possesses the one and only truth. And, the worst part of ANY religion is that it is an ideology that is implicitly and explicitly protected from any and all criticism from both within and without. Why should any ideology, especially religion, be so privileged? Can you not see how disastrous this way of thinking can be, and is?
I believe religion is, and has always been, tremendously harmful to Humanity. I believe that religions, and their way of thinking, and their theological disagreements, have created the greatest violence, destruction, injury, death, bigotry, harm, immorality, intolerance, wickedness, and abuse to the human species than any other cause. The main problem is not religious fundamentalism, but the fundamentals of religion. Religion’s loose version of “morality,” has NO place in a civilized society.
Sure. You can argue that it is the extremists, not the doctrine. All this says to me is that you have never truly read the various doctrines. It is both. Extremists might be using it as an excuse, but it is an excuse that the religious texts readily provide. I firmly believe, and shall take this belief to my grave, that the human species would have been much better off had there NEVER been ANY form of religion.
I see NO evidence of ANY gods, but plenty of evidence of religion’s harm.
And I am a lot more concerned with the welfare of my fellow human beings than I am about “offending” or “hurting the feelings” of a bunch of barbarians who choose to believe in the faerie tales of an obsolete, irrelevant, savage, offensive, and unsubstantiated, immoral Bronze Age religious text about an imaginative Sky Faerie and Magic Zombie Virgin.
Offended? So the fuck what!
Ultimately, it is Religion that is Humankind’s worst enemy.
rmfr
EDIT: added forgotten reference link to Wikipedia
AJ777
We decide what is good or evil according to the effects that actions or events have on us, our families, our societies, and our world. Human morality is relative, and it evolves. It's childish to look for absolutes in a dynamic world.
Human morality is not at the heart of theist religions, which are more concerned with understanding and enforcing the will of god as interpreted by their leaders. This "revealed" will of god rarely aligns with the good of humanity or even with the "morality" of other theist religions, which is why we have religious wars, inquisitions, condom bans, and planes flown into buildings.
You don't see how morality can exist without religion. I don't see how it can exist with it.
@ Algebe
You don't see how morality can exist without religion. I don't see how it can exist with it.
Boom.
Algebe: "You don't see how morality can exist without religion. I don't see how it can exist with it."
I am adding this to my list: My Favorite Quotes at AR.
And see attached image.
rmfr
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
Where did you ever get the idea Religion is not evil? A whole lot of people wrote a whole lot of stuff so I will make my stuff brief and to the point. You are walking down the street and you see a man in a van grab a little girl off the street, toss her in the back of the van and drive away. Do you follow the van? Do you call the police?
You follow the van to a cabin in the woods,. The man pulls the girl out of the van. slaps her several times and then begins ripping her clothes off. The girl struggles as she is raped. Are you still waiting for the police?
The man finishes, pulls up his pants and then bashes the girls head in with a shovel. Are you still watching?
The man tosses the dead girls body into a plastic bag and then into the van again. He drives a mile up the road, pulls to the side, grabs his shovel, digs a shallow grave, dumps the girl's body in it and then drives away? Did you get his license number? Are you still trying to call the cops? Or do you find all of this exciting and interesting?
At what point would you intervene to try and save the little girl? At what point should an all powerful, omnipotent, prayer answering God, capable of doing anything intervene? Your God is a fucking dick!
It gets worse.
The man is sad over what he has done again. As he is driving down the road he sees a small Church up ahead. He goes into the Church and begs Jesus for forgiveness. He pleads for his salvation and admits his filthy sins. He invites Jesus into his heart and is of course forgiven by the lord. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever should believe in him shall have everlasting life." The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the holy ghost. BY THE GRACE OF GOD, the man is forgiven. The man walks out of the Church and is shot in the head by a cop who has just arrived. The man goes to heaven because he is forgiven. The little girl burns in hell because no one told her about religion.
FUCK YOUR GOD. And FUCK anyone that worships a monster like this.
@Cog
I've had a version of that metaphor in my head for years, I used to daydream about it whenever I was dragged into a church, it at least helped make that time useful. Once in a while, the preacher would hit on that very point, that even the worst sinner could find salvation and the dolts around me would tear up at what a great god they worshipped. I'd be thinking, what an asshole.
YEP Religion, life's shortcut to pretending you are a human being without doing the work.
The only semblance of morality that any religion has is because the people that created the religion was naturally moral already or they would not survive.
Religion becomes whatever people want it to be because it is a product - not a cause. Hence it can push the boundaries of natural morals when needed.
The Hebrews needed a god that could save them from Egypt and make them a free people. So their god became a tool for that and it led them to a promised land with war, genocide, infanticide, murder and unmentionable atrocities in their wake. If god was real he could have done this peacefully, but because he is a product and tool things happened the way they did. Violently. Just people dominating other people. The masses motivated in the name of god by those in power.
If god was a cause he would unite the world, not tear it apart. Because he/she/it is a product of human minds it is what it is today: moral to a degree, but also immoral when it suits our desire for power and possessions and control.
Yes religion is evil. Because we can decide to be evil for our own gain. And it is what we make it. And when reality, logic and fact go out the window - any evil is possible and subjectively justifiable.
"And man said, Let us make god in our image, after our likeness: and let him have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So man created god in his own image, in the image of man created he him..."
"Where does this idea of good or evil come from apart from morality as revealed in religion?"
The same place all human ideas come from, including all religious ideas, human reasoning and imagination.
Unless you can demonstrate objective evidence anything in any religion has an origin that isn't entirely human?
Claiming your ideas are divine diktat doesn't make them any more valid without definitive evidence for the claim.
What's more they would still need to be shown to be moral ideas by some objective human standard, EVEN if they could be demonstrated to have divine origins. Otherwise you're not being moral by any objective standard, you're just an amoral automaton blindly following the rules. Even "good" Nazis managed that much.
AJ777 are you going to participate in this topic?
Personally I desire a healthy and respectful exchange of ideas instead of just a hit-and-run.
@ David
I concur. I would love to see his reply to each and every post made here. He has been a member for about a year.
How about AJ777? Are you willing to refute each and every reply to your OP?
rmfr
Our sense of morality comes from our awareness that others are capable of suffering pain and harm.
The OP follows a religion that says that most of humanity will be tortured for eternity for not believing in it, and has the audacity to ask how religion can be evil.
This nails it for me as well. The bible claims its deity wants unruly children taken to the edge of town and stoned to death.
Condemns people as an "abomination" because they happen to have been born gay. Insists everyone worship an angry unevidenced deity that it also claims committed genocide. The same deity according to the bible tortured a new born baby to death over 7 days because it was angered it was conceived in an adulterous affair.
One wonders what anyone's standard for evil behaviour is if this doesn't fit the description?
@aj777
The god of your Bible is evil and immoral. It commands and comments genocide. It condones slavery. It commands and commits acts of evil that no human could get away with. It's followers follow its commands, all in the name of religion.
@AJ777
This looks like a hit and run so will keep this short.
The basis of world history. Reading reliable recorded history indicates much harm, death, and misery that occured in history can be laid directly at the feet of various religions.
Religion does not reveal much about much of anything, except maybe about how: gullible people can they are to a con when the con gives them some easy short cut answers to fanciful thoughts, of course, the con is made much more effective since the con starts for many as soon as they are old enough to communicate with their own trusted parents, family and peers.
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@ AJ777
And another thing about religion that is applicable...
The Nine Razors:
Religion can NEVER supply OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE. Only LIES.
Here is a list of how one can spot a Religious Absolutist and/or Apologist and they only need match just ONE:
And one of the greatest lie and tactic:
Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit non ei qui negat.
And with all the other posts, the burden is now yours. Do not shift it.
rmfr
Well, lots of responses. First, I didn’t make an assertion that required evidence. I asked a question. Second, many of the responses seem to agree that morality is relative, but then also state that religion is evil. How is that possible. Wouldn’t it be more accurate to simply state one doesn’t like religion. If morality is not objective, religion and irreligion, right and wrong become a matter of opinion or preference. Then what makes an atheists opinion more correct that a Muslims? How can religion be a cause of evil if evil doesn’t really exist?
Sun, 01/06/2019 - 19:41
AJ777
"Hi all, wondering on what basis can one claim that religion is bad or evil. Where does this idea of good or evil come from apart from morality as revealed in religion?"
"I didn’t make an assertion that required evidence. "
Yes you did, you said "apart from morality revealed in religion" see above, that is an assertion, an assertion you predictably can't evidence.
" then also state that religion is evil. How is that possible. "
Well I'm not answering a second time if you can't be bothered to acknowledge my first answer, and those of others. Here is my answer I already gave.
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/how-can-religion-be-ev...
"Then what makes an atheists opinion more correct that a Muslims?"
Straw man argument unless you can show anyone making this broad and rather silly assertion you have made up.
"How can religion be a cause of evil if evil doesn’t really exist?"
Evil is a word that humans have created to define certain types of behaviour, if any religion encouraged or condoned that kind of behaviour then by definition it would be evil. Again this was in my previous answers and the answers of others, which you have ignored for some reason.
Are you saying you don't think acts like genocide, rapine, murder, slavery, homophobia, misogyny, and torture are all immoral and or evil? The bible condones them all.
@AJ777
Do you consider yourself an honest man?
Take your time and ponder before you reply, because I will hold you to your word.
If you bothered to read the many replies, many atheists stated their position. That is being honest. Now, what is your position?
"How can religion be a cause of evil if evil doesn’t really exist?"
Religion and "God" are not synonymous.
You must read the responses carefully. They are saying that it is god does not exist... not religion. If you go back and read the responses again, you will find that everyone pretty much concurs that organized religion is very real and it has caused much harm.
The thing is, theists are used to the idea of interpretation. Everything in your holy book must be interpreted after being translated from so many different languages that had their own versions of idiomatic language, that we may never accurately translate today.
On the contrary, the responses here have been laid out in plain old English and can be taken at face value. No need to misunderstand any of us.
Religion not evil? LOL.
The answer to your last question is simple: if morality is relative/subjective then "evil" is also.
I know people don't like appeals to numbers... but a society is a number of individuals, who all must come to grips with the idea that what is best for everyone may not be best for a particular individual. And so, our morality is basically a consensus on what our society feels is best overall - never just one person's ideal.
No, I have lied in the past, which makes me a dishonest person. However, I did read all of the replies. I’m confused as to how one can complain about the acts of a thing they believe doesn’t exist. If God doesn’t exist, then these acts have been committed and commanded by humanity. I think it would be more honest to say one doesn’t like the morality of a certain religion, than to say it is wrong. Because if morality is subjective then nothing is objectively wrong.
" I’m confused as to how one can complain about the acts of a thing they believe doesn’t exist."
Then your problem is with basic English comprehension, as no one has done this. This is also very dishonest as you know you asked about religion and asserted it was the only source of morality. Here it is again from your OP..
" Where does this idea of good or evil come from **apart from** morality as revealed in religion?"
" If God doesn’t exist, then these acts have been committed and commanded by humanity."
Of course, but your claim asked why people consider religions to be evil, no deity has to exist for that to answered. Humans create religions, and imbue them with ideas that by definition I would consider to be evil. The fact they assign them to a deity is doesn't change this.
"I think it would be more honest to say one doesn’t like the morality of a certain religion, than to say it is wrong."
They're the same thing, why do so many theists never read dictionaries?
Morality
noun
Principles concerning the distinction between right and ***wrong*** or good and bad behaviour.
"Because if morality is subjective then nothing is objectively wrong."
That's a pretty stupid tautology as morality is the the distinction between right and wrong behaviour. So you've basically written if something is subjective it can't be objective. I can't tell if you're playing pointless word games, or actually started a thread about morality, and don't even know what it means.
- REMOVED SLANDEROUS INSULT -
1. I have told the truth in the past and that makes me an honest person.
2. How is responding to your question, Complaining. If you don't want to know the answers go hang out with your religious friends. There is no one around here that needs your bullshit.
3. If God doesn't exist, humans did it. YEP. And if he does exist, he is an asshole for creating imperfection. A child with a box of crayons could invent a better world.
4. Religion has morality? What in the fuck are you talking about. There is no morality in religion. There are 'MORAL DICTATES." Do good things so you can go to heaven. Do bad things and burn in hell. WHERE IS THE MORALITY? I can train a dog with reward and punishment.
Morality does not come from an external source of dictates. Morality is not, be good and I will give you ice cream. The child who is nice to his brother or sister to get an ice cream is NOT BEING MORAL. A child who avoids fighting with a peer because the parent has threatened them with punishment IS NOT BEING MORAL. You can not be moral by following dictates given to you by a murdering god.
5. What makes you think morality is subjective? Situationally, morality is objectively verifiable. (Morality is objective within contexts as long as we are talking about "well being." If you do not mean "well being" when you say morality, then I have no idea what you are talking about.
In the Amazon there is a tribe that practices raping little boys as a part of their rights of passage into manhood. This is moral in their culture as it is traditional and has been practiced for a thousand years. It is "OBJECTIVELY IMMORAL" Abusing, raping, a young boy is not psychologically or physically healthy. Raping a young boy does nothing for his sense of well being. It's a bit like your God giving eternal punishment for a finite crime or forgiving a murdering rapist who says "Oops, my bad, sorry, and forgive me." Failing to hold people accountable for their actions only lets them know that they can continue engaging in those actions free of personal responsibility. Christian Forgiveness, is amoral and does nothing at all for well being. It does nothing to help a person learn the difference between right and wrong. It simply DICTATES rewards and punishments.
@AJ777: If God doesn’t exist, then these acts have been committed and commanded by humanity.
Do you think god and religion are the same thing?
As an atheist, I see every religion as something created by humanity, either in an attempt to make sense of a frightening and inexplicable world, or to conquer and control people for the benefit of despots and priests.
The people who created the Judaeo-Christian religion were patriarchal tribes with a penchant for conquest, murder, torture, and rape. Those same qualities are mirrored perfectly in the god they cobbled together. The so-called "objective morality" of that religion is a tautology. God is good. Good is god. Which means that whoever defines god defines this ersatz objective morality.
The best morality evolves from a consensus in a society in which people are free to think for themselves and question everything.
@AJ777
We are not discussing the acts of an imaginary sky fairy, we are discussing religions. If someone who pretends to speak for a deity instructs "followers" to commit heinous acts, we understand that the religion must be held accountable.
The objective rules on moral behavior in holy books were laid down by the leaders of barbaric and cruel tribes, and should not be considered a guide in moral conduct. When one examines something to decide if it is moral or not, conditions definitely come into play. For example, if someone is holding a knife to a loved one's throat and threatening to kill, I would have no problem pulling the trigger. No set of objective rules can predict all scenarios, thus moral behavior is a slippery slope, but one that can be negotiated by careful and considerate thought.
Sheldon, ad hominem arguments aside, why should I be concerned with your opinion of what is good or evil?
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