My wife who stays home with our 2 young children recently met some Mormon women in our neighborhood. We recently moved to the suburbs. They are all very nice, and I'm glad she made friends as she struggled at first.
They have clearly told her "We'll be your friend either way, but we really want you to join us, etc." So again, very nice, but have a motive. She's into it now. She's gone to church a couple times, reading part of the Book of Mormon, etc.
She's never been an atheist (possibly believes in intelligent design), but we always agreed all organized religion is made up.
So now she is considering one of the most obviously made up ones of all. Basically, she's spending all this time with these people who live it and she likes their company, sense of community, etc.
I'm fine with the friendships, but I cannot handle her being dumb enough to not just laugh at how absurd the Joseph Smith story is, how the "prophets" get "visions" whenever something needs to change, etc. I made the mistake of saying "I thought you were smart" which hurt her feelings. Now, anything I say no matter how logical is met with resistance.
Can anyone give me some very simple soundbites / points (similar to what Armin does in a general sense in his book) to quickly show her why the whole thing is ridiculous?
Thank you very much!
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This might help:
http://infidels.org/kiosk/article/three-strikes-youre-outthe-quick-and-d...
Well offhand:
Mountain Meadows
Placement marriage
Underage plural marriage
If I were in your situation I would make sure all my financial assets, house, etc. were secure from being deeded over to the Mormons by her.
A friend of mine's daughter became a Mormon in order to marry a Mormon fellow. My friend , her own father, was not allowed to attend the wedding ceremony because he is not Mormon. Your wife should ask them how your marriage will be received by the church if she converts.
that`s how the Jehovah witnesses and now the mormans reach people who are gullible and looking for some spark in there lives get them into the fold.They come across as you say in your own words as caring and friendly but really they are ravenous wolves inside.as for the mormans they are a very wealthy organization. they own a lot of real estate and they bleed all the money out of there followers who attend there meetings.the whole morman and Jehovah witnesses ideology is built on sinking sand it just doesn`t hold up under careful examination.Joseph Smith was and had many wives many children he died violently, it starts in upstate new York and then moved westward.to salt lake city Utah.they were at one time a racist institution, they believe in short that man became god and a whole lot of other real off the wall doctines of theirs.i will send you a link that can inform you exactly what they do believe. Best of everything in your marriage.
hwww.reasonablefaith.org/counterfeit-claims-of-the-spirits-witnessere is the link I promised you on some aspect of the mormans form of worship style.
www.reasonablefaith.org/counterfeit-claims-of-the-spirits-witness
Soundbite: Ask them for proof that god or gods exist.
A word of warning: Be careful not to trigger The Backfire Effect.
When someone holds a belief that is not based on facts, using proof (or ridicule) to argue against that belief could trigger the backfire effect and send them deeper into irrational beliefs.
This passage expresses it well:
"Once something is added to your collection of beliefs, you protect it from harm. You do it instinctively and unconsciously when confronted with attitude-inconsistent information. Just as confirmation bias shields you when you actively seek information, the backfire effect defends you when the information seeks you, when it blindsides you. Coming or going, you stick to your beliefs instead of questioning them. When someone tries to correct you, tries to dilute your misconceptions, it backfires and strengthens them instead. Over time, the backfire effect helps make you less skeptical of those things which allow you to continue seeing your beliefs and attitudes as true and proper."
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/
Some more reading on the subject:
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~nyhan/nyhan-reifler.pdf
http://www.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_backfire_effect.php
@Train
You are in a tough situation. I'm afraid that if you try to convince her from an atheistic point of view that Mormonism is false, you may very well fail and loose your wife.
I think she is seeking something else besides the cold, desolate place of atheism.
You should seek the truth with her. I'd be happy to help you turn her away in a constructive way. But if you aren't a believer, you won't have much ammo. It might be time for you to seek the truth too.
Mm12,
Why do you think I think atheism is a cold, desolate place?
I think Richard Dawkins said it well:
"The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference."
If his view is correct for an atheist, we are in a cold, desolate universe. I wouldn't agree with him. Would you?
All atheism is, is the lack of belief in god(s). It has nothing to do with the universe. My life is rich and warm and wonderful...and I am atheist. You seem to want to assign to atheism things that it does not own. But, since you are theist, I guess it's just not easy for you to understand.
@CyberLN
Are you insulting my intelligence?
Dawkins's quote speaks for itself.
I don't doubt that your life is rich, warm, and wonderful (even if it is your illusion).
You are either a blind accident of evolution or not. (See the Darwinian Theory of Evolution).
inb4evolutionisjustatheory!
/e
Opps, too late!
@Nyarlathotep Yep you got it right. I think Darwin's Theory is a theory. You are very observant.
Gravity is just a theory but don't let that hold you down.
[edit]
My humor goes very unappreciated around here.
This is a picture of an actual book:
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
Well, mm12, sigh, perhaps the intelligence you are concerned I am insulting is equally as illusory as you say is the condition of my life.
@MM12
"The universe we observe has precisely the properties we would expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference."
I think that's a quote from Darwin rather than Dawkins, but either way it doesn't mean that our lives have to be empty, cold or meaningless. It just means that we have to find meaning for and within ourselves and those around us in this world, instead of praying futilely to a non-existent deity and waiting for a better life after death. I am a wonder of evolution, a unique individual resulting from innumerable coincidences stretching back into the unfathomable depths of time and across lightyears of space.
@Algebe
You are mistaken. That quote is from Richard Dawkin's "The God Delusion".
You have written some very nice poetry. I particularly like, " unfathomable depths of time and across lightyears of space"
Sure, you can assign value to yourself or anything else you want. I certainly think you are valuable. Otherwise, I wouldn't waste my time here. But, on your view point, don't you have the same value as a spec of dust floating in space? Well maybe you have more value than that because you have evolved? So now you have as much value as a lobster? Cool with me, if you think that. But I think you have much more value than that.
Algebe how could you be so dogmatic and say that there is no reason to pray to a non-existent deity, you are so certain of yourself and that goes for other atheist as well. As of the current moment mankind just doesn`t know, and since you are in the minority opinion I don`t accept your dogmatic claim, Which is built on your feelings. since feelings change the only thing that stands is objective truth and you haven`t provided any.
@MM12
"Sure, you can assign value to yourself or anything else you want."
Or you can pretend that you have pretend value assigned to you by a pretend deity who may or may not reward you in a pretend afterlife. I'm afraid that doesn't validate me in my eyes, so I'll just rely on the value placed on me by me and those around me.
As far as specks and lobsters are concerned, I guess their value depends on how they are combined and in what circumstances. The specks of cosmic dust that combined to make me certainly have value while I last. My value in lobsterland would be zero, since I'd be dead in a few minutes, but in my element I believe I'm quite useful and valuable to a lot of people.
I think you're right about that quote. When I Googled it I got several religious sites attributing it to Charles rather than RIchard. But the truth of it certainly stands.
What ever works for you in your delusion. It's cool.
@ miracleman12
You are the cliché of a theist prick: Passive aggressive, condescending and insulting.
Why do you act like this? It's so childish.
Perhaps because he's holier than thou, Prag. ;-)
You forgot plagiarist.
Busted. Now I'm sad. :)
Thanks, I appreciate it. I thought I was being nice. I'm perfectly respectable to those who lend me the same. I'm the loner here and I don't mind. That's my choice. I can take what ever you can dish.
When you want to have a real discussion with me please apply yourself. :)
I do practice polemics. I'm unapologetic about it. If that makes me a prick so be it.
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