Hello, I didn't see a "Help Wanted" section, so I'm posting this here. Please delete/move if this is in error.
Are any of you in a committed relationship with a person of faith & if so, how do you handle this? Worse yet, did you make a vow to this person in a Christian church? To further exacerbate this morass did you then have children together?
Please excuse me as I drop my feculent tale on your welcome mat...
I was raised Lutheran in a not-that-strict sense. When I was the last sibling in the house & in high school, my parents increased their religious intake and forced me along. I hated this change, but I remained a believer. It wasn't until after I was married, during Iraq War the sequel that I had a spiritual and political awakening/apostasy. Needless to say, that has caused great friction with all of my family ever since, to the point I really don't enjoy spending time with them anymore because it's all just a superficial smile.
I now harbor a lot of resentment about my upbringing and feel my life would be different had I not the weight of "sin" affecting some of my choices through adolescence and early adulthood. This resentment boils up in my marriage whenever church holidays arrive, my children ask about god, or when my wife asks if I have a problem with them attending vacation bible school. Like my parents, she wasn't particularly religious until we had children. One of the things that really bothers me is she was raised Methodist & apparently they only teach about the fictitious buddy Christ, rather than teaching about all the disturbing things in the Old Testament, which I always thought was the foundation of the faith. Stop me if you've heard this before...She prefers to cherry pick the feel-good verses from that infamous book of myths rather than confront the petulant, angry, jealous & evil god on display in that magnum hocus. Not to mention every christian celebration is a theft of earlier ideas and traditions...but I digress. So when I see propaganda my children bring home about how they (innocent children) [ok, they're not that innocent] are "sinners" my blood boils over.
I do not know how to deal with this in a peaceful manner in my relationship and the feeling of being surrounded by the general fog of christianity found in suburbia causes me to feel very alone. A friend did recommend a highly reviewed book about co-habitating with a believer/non-believer, but I have not yet talked to her about it as I harbor too much anger about religion in general to be open to accepting those of faith. I should probably see a therapist, but who has money & time for that?
So in modern fashion, I turn to the internet to entreat strangers rather than real-life friends because either
A) We as a society simply don't talk about deep concerns with our friends anymore (if we ever did);
or
B) I have failed to cultivate close friendships.
I have profound envy for those of you who awoke to reality prior to adulthood.
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Be honest and don't commit identity suicide.
Hey there, Saturn. Glad you found us. While I have never had a problem such as yours, I'm pretty sure there are a few on here who have. And you are in luck, because everybody is pretty good with advice.
About the only thing I may have to contribute is in regards to your mentioning therapy. You said something about the Iraq War and how it changed your views. Well, if you are a Vet, then the VA has free counselling available. I had to use them before for a different matter, but it definitely helped. Just something for you to consider. Hope it all works out for you, and we are always here if you need an ear to bend.
First, Well Come! to the Atheist Republic.
I can and cannot help. For one, Tin-man is correct. Use the VA. I still do to this day. I am the first to admit I sometimes get overwhelmed. Not due to the Absolutists around me, but what has happened in the past.
Since I have already shared it elsewhere, I am going to give you the link: Soul Shatter. It is a Dropbox link to a PDF.
Note to Mods: I hate doing it this way because it almost seems to be a self-promotion. However, it is a sharing. And it may help...
I can help some with the family thing. Cannot help with the relationship thing. I have always sought atheists to date. I just cannot tolerate Absolutists any longer. Perhaps I should define my meaning for Absolutist: anyone belonging to any religion, especially the absolute Abrahamic religions - Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc. - due to their absolutist beliefs system and is truly applicable to any AND all religious believers. Especially the apologists.
My whole family is Absolutist. I am the only atheist, except for my oldest sister. And she is still a baby atheist. Only been one for the last eight years. I have been one for my whole life.
It only took my whole family a whopping 45 years to quit trying to convert me. None of them are capable of defeating me in, dare I say it?, Theist-Atheist debate/discussion/argument. I can easily shred anything they throw at me. The only way they can get the upper hand to perform a continuous diarrhea spewing. They know I suffered brain damage in THE accident and that I cannot think as quickly on my toes as I used to be able to. They know this and abuse if they decide to gang up on me. At which point, I just walk away and leave. I still love them all to death. Even love them enough I would sacrifice my life to save theirs. Now that is what I call "unconditional love." How many do you know would still love their family to do such a thing after the family has done nothing but abuse your weakness when they decide to attempt a "soul salvation intervention?"
My whole family does know that I am a scientist first and foremost. They also know I am a, as call myself, Rationalist. A Critical Thinker. A Ponderer. They also know this makes me an atheist. The only thing they don't know is that when it comes to anything religious, that I am a die-hard, pull no punches, militant anti-religionist. None of them know of the absolutely horrible abuse I suffered during the seven years my mom forced me to go to church. And the biggest problem is I dare not tell them. Because they would still try to convert me attempting to use the "O! My God! I am so sorry!" tactic that I find to be so full of bullshit anyway.
I even had an "incident" with my brother just yesterday (whenever Monday was). I just shrugged if off like water on duck's backside and left it alone. I did post it here because I wanted to see what my new family here would say about. Got to admit, I really loved those comments y'all. Thanks.
As for relationships, I have always sought out other atheists. If I get started in one and find she is an Absolutist, I say "Sorry. But I am an atheist." Then I run as fast as I can. Sorry I can't help you there. However, I can say, as chimp3 put so eloquently, do not commit identity suicide. Otherwise, all I can say is be yourself. If the relationship ain't going to work because of a difference in beliefs, it just ain't going to work.
In closing, use the VA. That is what they are there for. I also am a veteran. And thank you for your service.
**hand salute**
rmfr
Saturnine,
"Are any of you in a committed relationship with a person of faith & if so, how do you handle this? Worse yet, did you make a vow to this person in a Christian church? To further exacerbate this morass did you then have children together?"
The question you have to answer is what do you really want from your relationship? It sounds like you want to bail and find greener pastures.
At one point in time you thought, or deluded yourself, that you were in love and wanted to spend your life with your chosen bride. You took a vow to that effect. So if you break it then your vow isn't worth shit. That's the reality of it. Your wife is an independent person with her own hopes, dreams, delusions. Is she still in love with you? You can tell just as she can tell if you still love her. If you love her can you support her religious delusions? Maybe she needs them to cope with you. If you don't respect her enough to tolerate her church attendance without being a prick about it then your relationship is headed for failure.
As far as the kids are concerned the most important passage they can learn from the Protestant Bible is Proverbs 1:10-19 =https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=proverbs1%3A8-19&version=CE... They should know that if they don't know anything else.
I am not a veteran, but thank you for the suggestion. I was going to try a witty quip about the military but I'm not in the mood anymore.
@Diotrephes
That is a very cutting assessment. Am I really that transparent?
I have thought about divorce often for many years. Does she love me? That's hard to judge. She says the words when things are going well and will talk to me about things that someone not in love wouldn't say, yet has no issue tearing my character apart when she gets angry. I am well aware I am far from perfect. I know I have injured our relationship at times. But I feel very alone as I cannot confess desires and dreams to her without judgement. Affection is not reciprocated but she still wants to share time together. She often doesn't seem to notice or care about the things I do for her and instead brings up negative behaviors. She does not acknowledge the hurt she causes me. Is it not reasonable to expect her respect for my lack of beliefs? She does not appear to try like I do. Yes, I broke a vow. I didn't intend for it to happen. Are people really not expected to change from the age of 24 on? It's not as though I got drunk and slept with someone else one night, this was a gradual change over time that incorporated a lot of thought.
@chimp3, et al.
It is easy to suggest being true to your character but that will likely lead to no longer living with my children on a daily basis. Would you cause people you love more than life itself pain for your beliefs? I suppose I'm already doing that so I'm fvcked either way. Am I causing damage to them by staying with them and swallowing my hatred for religion? I'm certain I will have regrets either way. People claim it's better to divorce and be happy than stay together for your kids, but I'm not convinced. They're 6 & 9. Others seem to come out of divorce unscathed, but it looks like hell from this end.
Sorry, this is turning into something other than an atheist debate. I do appreciate the responses. Maybe my question boils down to:
How does one get over the hatred of religion? It's not going away. Either I learn to accept it on some level or be angry the rest of my life. Winning a debate with a fundie isn't going to bring lasting happiness.
Saturnine,
"That is a very cutting assessment. Am I really that transparent?"
Relationships are hard. They tend to ebb and flow. Based on my experience you should be able to tell if a person loves you. People will always tell you the truth if you are willing to listen. It's not so much that they are deceiving you as you are deluding yourself. The fact that you have been thinking about divorce for several years has altered your relationship and made your wife angry. So she snaps at you and seeks comfort in church in order to find a way to cope with the situation.
Sure, you hate religion but you aren't giving her anything to work with. She needs it to cope with your pissy attitude. Would you be happier if she took up drinking and drugs and sleeping around? If you don't respect her choice to believe in a fairy tale you will really be upset if she engaged in some other hobbies.
You mentioned that you have kids. The reality is that if you live in America child support will leave you broker than a hobo. She will get the kids, the house and other assets. You will have to find a place to lay your head. Over time she will probably lose the house because it's too expensive for her. Your kids will become homeless. Everyone will end up hating everyone else. That's most people's experiences over time. Why do you think you will be different?
IMO you need to ask yourself some serious questions.
Do you hate your family enough to get a divorce because your wife goes to church?
Would you be happier if she stopped going to church and started using drugs and alcohol and sleeping around?
Would you care if your kids ended up homeless as a result of your divorce and hated your for the rest of your life?
Remember there are always two or more right answers to every situation. So choose one that maximizes your happiness and well-being.
@Saturn Re: "@Diotrephes: That is a very cutting assessment."
Well, do you want helpful and honest advice/opinions, or would you rather us all tell you we will pray for you and let god make it all better for you? *chuckle* As you are already painfully aware, sometimes the truth hurts and really sucks. Se la vie. I assure you, I do understand why you despise religion. I totally get it. I'm not a big fan either. Bottom line, though, is you have to make the tough decision as to which means more to you: Your wife and kids, or your hatred for religion. You had mentioned something about the Iraq war that sort of "pushed you over the edge", but you were not in the military. I'm no psychiatrist, but it seems to me there may be something related to that keeping your fury toward religion burning, whether you realize it or not. Talking to a counselor could be very helpful in getting that out. Excuses are easy to make when trying to avoid something we really don't want to do. But if salvaging your marriage and family is something that is truly important to you, then you will make a way to do whatever needs to be done. It is amazing what you can do when you put your mind to it.
Tin-Man,
"Well, do you want helpful and honest advice/opinions, or would you rather us all tell you we will pray for you and let god make it all better for you?"
I read an article a while ago that one of the major differences between Christians and muslims is that Christians are big confessors. They like to tell everyone their problems. Muslims tend to be more private and don't like to do that because it depresses the listeners and it also makes the confessor appear to be weak.
Now that I'm aware of Saturn's problems I feel depressed because he may not consider my comments worthy of consideration. Maybe that's why so many people just say that they will pray for the person? I suppose it's better than saying something like "I'm glad that I don't have your problems". So much for empathy.
I can identify with what you say, I lost all faith during Vietnam, and, I had little or or questionable faith before. I was always a free thinker, and, I tried, I really tried to believe in religion. I was raised in the Carolinas right in the bible belt. I came home on emergency leave and married my childhood sweetheart, an absolutist. When my younger brother got killed in a car accident..That didnt last very long, now I am married to a secular free thinker and we live together just fine.
I have been ostracized by my family ever since, as chimp put it I refused to commit character assassination by saying things that I didnt really believe in. I would go to Christmas get togethers, and, reunions, only to have someone who was trying to post their supposed "Morals" which they acquaint with being pious by asking across the table and ten people down about what church did I attend and what was my relationship with "Jesus"
I replied that the last time I saw "Jesus" who was a fellow I was in basic training with that he was a Military police in Vietnam and was sitting in a jeep watching a whorehouse that was off limits. that was the only "Jesus" I knew, and, I really didnt like that motherfucker. There was an eerie silence, but the moral posting questions stopped. I have never gone back and, never intend to.
If their religion professes "unconditional love" then why shun me because I dont believe in fiction? I dont believe in Santa Claus, the Easter rabbit or the boogey man and, no one seems to give a rip if I believe in them or not. I dont figure I have lost anything. I am sure they have found another victim to chastise for some reason or another in my absence.
They invite me back occasionally but I have not been back for over 30 years, I live just fine without subjecting myself to their ad hominem remarks from the lifelong indoctrination of beliefs that they so smugly seem at home with. If there really was a heaven, I still dont think I would want to go there with a bunch of assholes like that, I would be sure to find more kindred spirits in hell and with the exception of all that fire and brimstone that is purportedly there, I believe it would be a jam up place with some of the characters that are supposed to be there. Most of the real good bands would be there I'm sure.
Be true to your self, no one else that believes absolutely in this mythical stuff is going to be, they are not even true to themselves, why would they be honest with you? Have a good evening/day.
Here is the thing.... You have been biting your tongue for a long time. You don't appear to know who this person is that you have ended up with. While religious you were engaged in the role of being married. That's what religious people do. You get married in a church, you have some kids, you have a mommy and a daddy. etc..... Everyone is doing their job and playing their role.
You have changed and are no longer looking at the roles. You are looking at the person you have married. You are looking at your life and yourself as a human being. You no longer want the role. You want a real person. You want something more meaningful to you. But you can not blame your wife. YOU ARE THE ONE THAT CHANGED. (As communication seems to be broken down, you do not know who she is any more. How has she changed?)
It seems you are at the point of CHOICE.
1. Continue as you are and endure. If you continue, you can not complain. You are doing it for the kids, for the commitment, for your promise or whatever, but it is your choice to continue.
2. You can change the things you are doing. You might write your wife a note like the one you wrote here. Express your concern about being torn down. Check your real feelings. Do you want to be with this family or not? Tell her you wrote it because you want to understand what is happening to you.. Ask her to write you back. Things you need to find out. Do you both want the same thing? Are you willing to recommit? How can you break the repetitive patterns? What do you like and why and when do you feel hurt and rejected. What was your wife's dream, how are you helping her? What is your dream, how is she helping you? What does she see as the solution to the problems? What are the problems from her point of view. She is entitled to her view. She is entitled to have dreams and desires. She is entitled to have an ideal of how she wanted things to turn out . And you are entitled to these things to. And then there is reality. Can you get from here to there? You will never know unless you do something to CHANGE.
3. You can decide to make the choice later. This is the same thing as choosing number 1. Your life is here, Now. All that past crap about your childhood is not a part of the here and now. You can not blame it for your indecision. It is not an excuse. You are an adult now. You are a human being who finds himself in a situation in which he is no longer comfortable. Opting to do nothing now is a choice to simply continue as you are.
Life is about choices - and facing fears. No one can make the choice for you.
OP you ask how to get rid of religious hatred, the same way you get rid of any hatred; recognise it, acknowledge it and free yourself from it's toxic life wasting clutches. Takes a bit of courage but clinging to hatred is just hating yourself.
@Saturnine, welcome to the forum and good luck with your problems. My most meaningful relationships have been with atheists or atheists on their way, 'cause I don't think a relationship in which neither of the parts can express themselves is advisable. But I understand that your kids are pretty young, so it's not easy to judge.
@TD's tip about hatred is good but do as he (in this particular case) says and not as he (usually) does.
I'm fine as I am @flamenca but thanks for the tip.
Hi Saturnine. Welcome to AR.
You mentioned that having kids is making the notion of divorce harder. A question for to to consider: is your marriage to their mother what you want to teach them a long term relationship should look like?
Don't discount counselling. If you are employed check your health coverage. When I was facing separation I found a good counselor who coded my problem as post traumatic stress so it was covered by my company insurance. Cost to me was $15 per visit. Best money I ever spent. Good luck.
Welcome to the family my friend! I’m sure you’ll fit right in with us here! While I have never experienced this problem, I used to in your wife’s shoes. I was the religious one in my relationship for a very long time with my girlfriend. One thing that slowly start pushing me away from it was her love for science. She passed that love of biology and physics on to me. I then started to see religion for what it really was, suppression of knowledge. However, I would say the best thing you can do is agree to disagree. Sit down and have a conversation with her and your family. Explain to them that you understand you probably won’t change their mind and they won’t change yours. After that, it’s really in their hands as to how they handle it, but at least you can say you did all you could. I hope this helps!
I may despise religion, but it does not control me.
I do not believe in holding resentments, they are a cancer of the soul.