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Chriliman - "You would agree that YOU can't comprehend absolutes either correct?"
You have muddied the waters so much I don't feel I can even answer that question.
---------------
It matters not. You tell us you don't comprehend absolutes, then expect us to take you seriously when you try telling us about what properties absolutes must have and other non-sense about absolutes. Then you want to claim that you are the one being rational. It is madness.
"It matters not. You tell us you don't comprehend absolutes, then expect us to take you seriously when you try telling us about what properties absolutes must have and other non-sense about absolutes. Then you want to claim that you are the one being rational. It is madness."
The answer is that none of us can comprehend absolutes, which is why each of us must either "believe" they exist or "believe" they don't exist. It's actually very simple.
"It's actually very simple."
You forget the myriad other options: one may believe they might exist; believe they could exist but that they don't; believe they could not exist but somehow do; believe they do exist in some circumstances and not others; believe they exist only as subjective standards and baselines; believe they might exist but not give a shit; etc., ad nauseum.
The thought experiment is not altogether without worth, but it is nowhere near as simplified as you are making it out to be.
Actually, I think it really is as simple as Chrilliman is saying (At least, for him, anyway). In order to really 'have god', you need to accept the concept with NO verifiable evidence of its even existing outside your own head.
You have to believe it. Take it 'on faith', so to speak.
What 'having faith' really is saying about a person, is that they are committed to thinking this way despite doubt, logic, or contrary evidence. I think it is why the faithful persevere regardless of evidence - it's because that is exactly what they are conditioned to do.
What could be so valuable to a person, that they are willing to accept it regardless of contradiction, falsity, or consequence? I think that's the real question. What do the faithful get out of faith?
"Actually, I think it really is as simple as Chrilliman is saying (At least, for him, anyway). In order to really 'have god', you need to accept the concept with NO verifiable evidence of its even existing outside your own head."
Exactly! However, to be an atheist also requires belief, because a subjective mind can't comprehend absolutes, yet atheists claim to believe in an absolute objective reality that exists independent of their minds, even though they can't test or verify this completely. They choose to believe it, since objective reality is right there in front of all of us. But when an atheists claims to not believe in absolutes they are claiming that there is no "absolute" objective reality, thus inferring that their own mind has created this perceived objective reality. This thought process is what I believe to be irrational, when all you have to do to make it rational is believe in absolutes.
"What 'having faith' really is saying about a person, is that they are committed to thinking this way despite doubt, logic, or contrary evidence. I think it is why the faithful persevere regardless of evidence - it's because that is exactly what they are conditioned to do."
We're all conditioned to believe one way or the other because we're all subjective.
"What could be so valuable to a person, that they are willing to accept it regardless of contradiction, falsity, or consequence? I think that's the real question. What do the faithful get out of faith?"
I think if you decided to try having faith in something you'd quickly find out, but you need to have faith in absolute truth and the absolute truth is that God has sacrificed himself for all of us and we should have faith in Jesus because of this. If you do this I believe you will see for yourself what the faithful get out of faith. It starts with taking action to believe in the Truth then hope for the future will follow then complete faith in God and his plan for redemption after that. Again, it starts with making a choice to take action.
You capture the core difference between atheist, and theist, right here: "They (atheist) choose to believe (accept as real) it (reality), since objective reality is right there in front of all of us." Bingo. You nailed it. This is something you also do, actually.
And then provide you rational for faith - or, believing in things which are most definitely not "right there in front of us all" - here: "hope for the future will follow..."
It's hope. You'll accept as possible things which have no observable basis - by any measure - because, there was once a time, when you were without hope. You were despairing.
Does that sound accurate?
"They choose to believe it, since objective reality is right there in front of all of us."
I'm going to say this once more: "...a sentient being who is sane operates according to some base assumptions. One of those assumptions is that reality exists outside our consciousness and is not invented by it." You can call this notion of a reality outside our own consciousness a concept of absolute reality if you wish. That does not mean that I claim to know anything about absolute reality, nor that I claim there even is an absolute reality. I know good and well that my perception of whatever absolute reality there may be is so diluted, convoluted, and subjective as to be wholly unreliable. What you do is claim to know what absolute reality is, that it has something to do with mysticism and magic, gods and spirits, etc. -- that there is a transcendent reality which created material reality. Theists make a claim and hold a belief about reality, I do not.
"I think if you decided to try having faith in something you'd quickly find out..."
What an arrogant, presupposing, thoughtless statement; who do you think you are, the only person who hes ever had faith in something? Are you really thinking that you are in a place here where no one has ever had faith and you are bringing this shiny new concept of faith to the wretched masses as some sort of savior? Maybe some of us have also been through a "soul-searching" gauntlet similar to the one you have and come out with a different point of view than yours.
This statement shows that you aren't here to discuss or argue, you are here as a self-aggrandized, proselytizing, knight in shining armor. Go fuck yourself, you arrogant prick.
"I'm going to say this once more: "...a sentient being who is sane operates according to some base assumptions. One of those assumptions is that reality exists outside our consciousness and is not invented by it."
By saying you "assume" reality exists outside of consciousness, you're also saying your not certain it exists when you're unconscious.
Lets use an example: Lets say you were walking along and all the sudden an anvil fell on your head and knocked you out. When you finally come to you see the anvil on the ground beside you. Would you still assume(not be certain) that the anvil hit your head and knocked you out and then while you were unconscious would you still assume the anvil continued to fall to the ground without you being aware of it. It safe to say you wouldn't assume this happened but would rather believe with certainty it happened because you can see the anvil did fall the rest of the way down even though you were unconscious when it hit the ground. You can believe with certainty that it fell and knocked you out and continued to fall and hit the ground. You wouldn't say "Well I assume it fell and hit my head and knocked me out and I assume it continued to fall and hit the ground, while I was knocked out." See what I'm trying to say? Assuming reality exists beyond our minds is like saying your uncertain reality exists when your not there to perceive it. It makes more sense to say you believe with certainty reality exists beyond your mind because things happen even if your not their to perceive them.
"You can call this notion of a reality outside our own consciousness a concept of absolute reality if you wish. That does not mean that I claim to know anything about absolute reality, nor that I claim there even is an absolute reality."
I don't claim to "know" absolute reality either, I've only claimed to believe in it.
There is no "absolute certainty" that the sky can't fall in, either. All this " absolute objectivity," "subjective minds, absolute conscious mind, objective reality" stuff is ALL BULLSHIT!!! This is a theist at their best grasping at straws, trying to make logic out of something that has none to satify their own "superstitions," as I call it now. Theists are very good at bringing the conversation around in circles, touching on things that have nothing to do with the original issue, and justify that as explaining away things that are COMPLETE NONSENSE!!
"There is no "absolute certainty" that the sky can't fall in, either."
True, that makes it a tentative proposition. This means that we can have great conviction that it will never happen, based on knowledge and experience, but it would be erroneous to state that it was "absolute". Science doesn't deal in "absolutes".
"All this " absolute objectivity," "subjective minds, absolute conscious mind, objective reality" stuff is ALL BULLSHIT!!!"
Not all of it, both subjective minds and objective reality is actually important, to both science and philosophy. We are agreed, however, that most of the buzz phrases he created using absolute as an adjective is bullshit.
"This is a theist at their best grasping at straws, trying to make logic out of something that has none to satify their own "superstitions," as I call it now."
True, he attempted to use fuzzy logic and epistemology to support his "superstition". The rest of this is me using the same to stomp him at his own game and hand him back his utterly broken gibbering badger hole.
"Theists are very good at bringing the conversation around in circles, touching on things that have nothing to do with the original issue, and justify that as explaining away things that are COMPLETE NONSENSE!!"
Yes, yes, they like to make knots using loose vocabulary and semi-advanced science and philosophy. Thankfully, I am able to look at those knots and completely sever them, without really needing to untie them at all. This was less of an an argument, and more like me watching a suicidal bird bash its fragile little brain against my window, and I genuinely loved every second of it.
I was a little disturbed by that last bit.
"Yes, yes, they like to make knots using loose vocabulary and semi-advanced science and philosophy. Thankfully, I am able to look at those knots and completely sever them, without really needing to untie them at all. This was less of an an argument, and more like me watching a suicidal bird bash its fragile little brain against my window, and I genuinely loved every second of it."
Yet another fundamental difference between us, I would never refer to you as a suicidal bird bashing your fragile little brain against a window because I actually have more respect for you than to say something so evil about another human being. Yet another reason why I must hope that you will realize your thinking is not rational.
"Yet another fundamental difference between us, I would never refer to you as a suicidal bird bashing your fragile little brain against a window because I actually have more respect for you than to say something so evil about another human being."
Oh? I only ever claimed to be honest, I never claimed to be a benevolent and compassionate person, I am a misanthrope. I generally view people I do not know, and many of the people I do know, about the same as you might view a venomous animal or insect. I suppose you could probably consider that evil, but it is really more a matter of perspective, considering homicide kills more people a year than all animal or insect attacks combined by quite a LARGE margin. Sorry, I am just not a big fan of humanity, and if that bothers you then YOU have the problem.
"Yet another reason why I must hope that you will realize your thinking is not rational."
As yet, the only one of us to demonstrate irrational thinking so far, is you.
"Sorry, I am just not a big fan of humanity, and if that bothers you then YOU have the problem."
Hear, hear.
Do I detect a fellow misanthrope? I hope you aren't as disillusioned with humanity as I, but it is always nice to know that one is not alone.
Let's just say I'm into negative population growth, and I don't even need it to be entirely voluntary.
I try not to influence my kids too much with my misanthropic tendencies; I wish I still lived in blissful ignorance.
(BTW, that's one biological and one adopted, so I'm still in keeping with digressive population. Yay.)
I've never called myself a misanthrope, but I agree.
Many seem to be content living in ignorance, happy to deny anything not to their likings. As long as it isn't dangled right in front of their face.
To quote a couple of movies:
"Denial is the most predictable of all human responses."
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the centre of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, ..."
The worlds resources cannot sustain the human population indefinitely, yet we procreate exponentially.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
Religions encourage narrow minded and short sighted thinking. They say that contraceptives are a sin and/or denies the right to abortion, to spread by procreation. No matter the cost, no matter the suffering it causes.
We have a future with famine, decease and war over resources to look forward to, thanks to that brilliant strategy.
"The worlds resources cannot sustain the human population indefinitely, yet we procreate exponentially.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
Religions encourage narrow minded and short sighted thinking. They say that contraceptives are a sin and/or denies the right to abortion, to spread by procreation. No matter the cost, no matter the suffering it causes.
We have a future with famine, decease and war over resources to look forward to, thanks to that brilliant strategy."
If every man had compassion for one another, we wouldn't even have the problem of abortion. Abortion is a problem because many men have no compassion/respect for a women and proceed to have their way with a woman whether or not she wants them to, then this women is involuntarily impregnated and now she has to make the choice of life or death for the baby, when it was the man's fault to begin with. If all men had compassion/respect for women, then all men would date a women like normal and then win her heart like normal and then ask her to marry him like normal and then live a civilized life and have children normally.
Unfortunately, this way of living life has gone by the way side in secular America/World. It is however still alive and strong among Christians. To be a Christian means you have a relationship with the one True God who has sacrificed himself for all of us in order to give us eternal life completely devoid of all evil. This is where compassion comes from and can explain why many of you have no compassion for humanity, which I do find very disturbing. I can only imagine what this world would look like if it were filled with men who have no compassion for humanity. I can imagine it would be much worse off than it is now.
"If every man had compassion for one another, we wouldn't even have the problem of abortion."
Eh? How did you come to THAT conclusion?
"Abortion is a problem because many men have no compassion/respect for a women and proceed to have their way with a woman whether or not she wants them to, then this women is involuntarily impregnated and now she has to make the choice of life or death for the baby, when it was the man's fault to begin with."
So, your contention is now that ALL abortions are a product of rape? That is patently false. About 1% of all abortions are because of rape or incest.
"If all men had compassion/respect for women, then all men would date a women like normal and then win her heart like normal and then ask her to marry him like normal and then live a civilized life and have children normally."
What if the WOMEN don't want that? What if they simply want a bit of fun, a pregnancy, and then a life as a single mother? It happens, you know, and it actually happens fairly often these days.
"Unfortunately, this way of living life has gone by the way side in secular America/World."
There were far larger numbers of teen pregnancies decades ago than there are now, and not all of them were married either, so your myth of the golden age is simply false out of the gate.
"It is however still alive and strong among Christians."
Who, consequently, have the HIGHEST rate of divorce and repeat divorces. Not to mention, women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical". So Christians are the group with the highest divorce rate, the highest abortion rate, and statistically the lowest education rate. Do I sense a pattern emerging?
"To be a Christian means you have a relationship with the one True God who has sacrificed himself for all of us in order to give us eternal life completely devoid of all evil. This is where compassion comes from and can explain why many of you have no compassion for humanity, which I do find very disturbing."
Nope. I lack compassion because I enjoy a condition called Antisocial Personality Disorder, not because I lack your genocidal imaginary friend with an inferiority complex, and I really can't say I give a shit what you find disturbing.
"I can only imagine what this world would look like if it were filled with men who have no compassion for humanity. I can imagine it would be much worse off than it is now. "
Actually, I can't imagine it would be much worse than it is now. Most of the assholes running around now pretend they have compassion, they don't really, they are just convert the entire planet to their warped way of thinking. Want a sandwich? We'll give you one if you listen to our sales pitch. Want a place to sleep? Cool, we throw in a free religious program, and religious materials. If you become a member of the church, you can stay for free, other wise it is $10 a night. I have BEEN homeless, and I have BEEN hungry, and have seen all those "compassionate" people operate with all the emotion and love of a school of sharks. So, fucks but no fucks, I have taken in feral animals with more compassion than your average religious person.
"So, your contention is now that ALL abortions are a product of rape? That is patently false. About 1% of all abortions are because of rape or incest."
Never said ALL abortions are a result of rape, but rather I believe ALL abortions are a result of evil within men and women. I believe that if all men and women were completely compassionate and respected one another then we wouldn't have the problem (or solution as some call it) of abortion.
"What if the WOMEN don't want that? What if they simply want a bit of fun, a pregnancy, and then a life as a single mother? It happens, you know, and it actually happens fairly often these days."
If a women doesn't want a man to respect her and chase after her heart in a respectable way then I believe that women has confused thoughts about how a real man should act. I believe confusion is caused by evil. Notice I'm using the word "believe" it is key.
"Who, consequently, have the HIGHEST rate of divorce and repeat divorces. Not to mention, women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical". So Christians are the group with the highest divorce rate, the highest abortion rate, and statistically the lowest education rate. Do I sense a pattern emerging?"
I never claimed that since I'm a Christian, I'm perfect. Actually to be a true Christian one must realize that they are actually worthless sinners with no hope, the only hope we have is in the salvation made possible by Jesus Christ. Once we accept this salvation through Jesus Christ we can then begin to live a purposeful life.
"Nope. I lack compassion because I enjoy a condition called Antisocial Personality Disorder, not because I lack your genocidal imaginary friend with an inferiority complex, and I really can't say I give a shit what you find disturbing."
I'm really sorry you have this condition, it truly seems horrifying. However, I "believe" you can be cured of this condition by simply taking action and asking God to reveal himself to you and asking for His grace to fill your life through the power of Jesus Christ. I believe this can't happen unless you take action first. The choice is yours.
"Actually, I can't imagine it would be much worse than it is now. Most of the assholes running around now pretend they have compassion, they don't really, they are just convert the entire planet to their warped way of thinking."
Do you consider me to be one of these people?
"Want a sandwich? We'll give you one if you listen to our sales pitch. Want a place to sleep? Cool, we throw in a free religious program, and religious materials. If you become a member of the church, you can stay for free, other wise it is $10 a night. I have BEEN homeless, and I have BEEN hungry, and have seen all those "compassionate" people operate with all the emotion and love of a school of sharks. So, fucks but no fucks, I have taken in feral animals with more compassion than your average religious person."
This isn't a sales pitch. The things I'm talking about are actually a free gift that only require you to take action and accept. I firmly believe that if you do take action and accept the Truth of Jesus your life will change for the better, it may be a struggle at first, but if you can persevere you will be blessed. Again, it's your choice, I'm not trying to preach to you. I'm just trying to understand you so I can help you. You can choose to accept my help or not it's your choice. I hope you choose to accept it, considering how far I've gone to try and understand you. It's my choice to try and understand.
"Never said ALL abortions are a result of rape, but rather I believe ALL abortions are a result of evil within men and women."
Oh, so when you said:
"Abortion is a problem because many men have no compassion/respect for a women and proceed to have their way with a woman whether or not she wants them to, then this women is involuntarily impregnated and now she has to make the choice of life or death for the baby, when it was the man's fault to begin with."
You didn't actually mean it? You meant something other than rape? Because, if you don't think this is the very definition of rape, perhaps you need to think harder. You literally stated here that "Abortion is a problem because...", and when I pointed out that your "because" was absolute bullshit, you are now scrambling.
"I believe that if all men and women were completely compassionate and respected one another then we wouldn't have the problem (or solution as some call it) of abortion."
Or, we still would, because respect includes respecting the choices of other people, even if you don't agree with them. Another thing that most Christians appear to lack in great measure.
"If a women doesn't want a man to respect her and chase after her heart in a respectable way then I believe that women has confused thoughts about how a real man should act. I believe confusion is caused by evil. Notice I'm using the word "believe" it is key."
Here is the problem, you consider yourself or a two thousand year-old book the sole arbiter of that "respectable way", which is utter bullshit. Many people in short-term relationships respect their partner, perhaps more so than many long-term relationships, because they don't have the illusion of possession attached to it. You, also, don't get to decide what a "real man" is or how one should act. This means that while you have your beliefs and opinions, they are not either a compass or mandate, so no one else need even consider them as valid or binding. It is also far too utopian and idealistic.
I once heard another atheist say that, if everyone was an atheist wars would end and peace would reign. I laughed at him. Your statement is nearly as dreamy and numb-headed, and worse we have history to tell us what the world was actually like when people thought like you do. Reality, I'm afraid, simply demolishes your claim on its own.
"I never claimed that since I'm a Christian, I'm perfect."
No, but one would expect a positive correlation at the very least, if it was as good a system or compass as you assert. Unfortunately, in all cases, Christianity seems to have a complete negative correlation to values. Makes one think maybe there is something wrong.
"Actually to be a true Christian one must realize that they are actually worthless sinners with no hope, the only hope we have is in the salvation made possible by Jesus Christ. Once we accept this salvation through Jesus Christ we can then begin to live a purposeful life."
A wonderful, purposeful life, full of divorces, abortions, and a GED. Woo Hoo.
"I'm really sorry you have this condition, it truly seems horrifying."
Don't be, I am not, I even said that I enjoyed it. I don't find it horrifying at all, if anything, it makes me far less gullible and insipid.
"However, I "believe" you can be cured of this condition by simply taking action and asking God to reveal himself to you and asking for His grace to fill your life through the power of Jesus Christ. I believe this can't happen unless you take action first. The choice is yours."
My condition is neurological, not a result of trauma, so no. Also, I am fortunate that mine isn't theocentric, as those with my condition that are, are generally extremely violent and homicidal. Religious sociopaths, it seems, take their religious laws seriously.
"Do you consider me to be one of these people?"
I don't know, yet. I don't know much of anything about you. I'll let you know when I make that determination.
"This isn't a sales pitch."
It quite usually is, in my estimation. It asks us to subsume the logical and reasonable parts of our psyche and assume as fact that which isn't just unsupported, but unsupportable, and then pretends it didn't ask for anything at all. There is a price, a psychological and mental one. It asks one to bear that which man was never meant to bear, asks him to find fault with himself for being unable to bear it, and then asks him to prostrate himself in front of an idol and ask forgiveness for not bearing it.
"The things I'm talking about are actually a free gift that only require you to take action and accept."
It takes a good deal more than that, it takes faith and subservience, but I bet you already knew that. Who are you trying to trick here?
"I firmly believe that if you do take action and accept the Truth of Jesus your life will change for the better, it may be a struggle at first, but if you can persevere you will be blessed."
One cannot accept as truth that which they do not believe IS the truth. I could no more accept your Jesus as true, as you could accept a flat Earth as true.
"Again, it's your choice, I'm not trying to preach to you."
Again, not a choice, conviction is a state of belief and NOT a choice. Fake it till you make it does not apply here.
"I'm just trying to understand you so I can help you."
No offense, but my condition isn't one well understood in the first place, you should probably just accept it instead of trying to comprehend it intricately.
"You can choose to accept my help or not it's your choice. I hope you choose to accept it, considering how far I've gone to try and understand you. It's my choice to try and understand."
I could no more choose to believe what you believe, as you could choose to have my condition, but thanks anyway I suppose.
What do you hope to achieve by offering Christ to atheist, Chriliman? What would be the perfect outcome of these conversations?
Lastly, what would that outcome mean for you?
I realize you have been near single-handedly carrying one side of this debate, and I appreciate that you so often respond.
"What do you hope to achieve by offering Christ to atheist, Chriliman? What would be the perfect outcome of these conversations?"
Well I hope the way in which I'm going about talking to everyone on this forum will show that my intentions are sound and that I'm really just trying to understand why you guys think the way you do. I feel like I do have a good understanding, so now I'd hope some of you would try to understand my thinking, but obviously I can't force you to, all I can do is hope that the way I've presented my beliefs would spark some interest in your mind and maybe inspire you to do more investigation into my beliefs.
After all this is exactly what I did when I set out to find truth, someone I love claimed to not believe in the Christian God anymore and so I decided to investigate by researching the two things that claimed to be truth in my life, Christianity and Science. After all my research I came to the conclusion that has been presented on this forum, but after I realized it I was severely attacked spiritually. I believe evil does not want me expressing these truths that God has revealed to me, but I'm determined to do it anyway because of my faith in God.
"Lastly, what would that outcome mean for you?"
This is a very tough question to answer because the answer is within the Bible. Ultimately, the outcome would mean that God's perfect plan for salvation would come to completion, if everyone on earth believed in Him and His sacrifice for all of us.
"I realize you have been near single-handedly carrying one side of this debate, and I appreciate that you so often respond."
Thanks, it's not easy, but I actually enjoy talking to people who I believe are very intelligent. Can you imagine going into a Christian church and starting debates with them about atheism? Well you don't have to do this, you can just talk to me, an intelligent Christian.
"If a women doesn't want a man to respect her and chase after her heart in a respectable way then I believe that women has confused thoughts about how a real man should act. I believe confusion is caused by evil. Notice I'm using the word "believe" it is key."
You just keep stepping in it, Cril.
Some women have made the choice not to be in a partner relationship with any man no matter how they act. Some women are in partner relationships with other women.
Your "she just hasn't met the right guy" attitude demonstrates how deeply imbedded your sexism is. She has confused thoughts if she doesn't want a man chasing after her? That is hysterically funny!
Chriliman: "...the problem of abortion. Abortion is a problem..."
Abortion is not, I repeat, not, a problem. It is, however, typically a solution.
"Chriliman: "...the problem of abortion. Abortion is a problem..."
Abortion is not, I repeat, not, a problem. It is, however, typically a solution."
You can honestly say abortion is not a problem? How is terminating a human life before it even gets a chance to live, think and reason to its full potential seen as a solution and not pure evil. You were once a fetus, aren't you glad you weren't aborted? Aren't you glad you can live, think and reason so you can post on this forum and hopefully add value to this world? I'm very thankful I wasn't aborted and am thankful none of you were aborted. I'm saying there is a solution to the problem of abortion and that solution involves really thinking and reasoning about life itself and why we are all here. I firmly believe we all have a purpose and it is up to each of us to realize that purpose. You're seeing my purpose in action right in front of you.
"You can honestly say abortion is not a problem?"
Yes.
"How is terminating a human life before it even gets a chance to live, think and reason to its full potential seen as a solution and not pure evil."
As many as 50% of all pregnancies end up in spontaneous abortion (miscarriage). Guess that's part of your gawd's plan, making your gawd a damned active abortionist. If your line of thinking were actually rational, then this is a far, far greater tragedy.
"You were once a fetus, aren't you glad you weren't aborted? Aren't you glad you can live, think and reason so you can post on this forum and hopefully add value to this world?"
Look up Affirming the Consequent Fallacy.
"I'm very thankful I wasn't aborted and am thankful none of you were aborted."
1. Look up Argument from Personal Incredulity Fallacy.
2. You're thankful I wasn't aborted? Would you be so if in five minutes I committed mass murder?
3. There are many, many, many people who are thankful abortion is possible. I'm particularly thankful it is no longer completely illegal in the U.S. since that enables safe abortion which keeps the LIVING alive.
"I'm saying there is a solution to the problem of abortion and that solution involves really thinking and reasoning about life itself and why we are all here."
You have to have some reason for 'being here' other than that you are?
And, again, there is no abortion problem. The actual problem is you and your ilk thinking and acting upon your misguided conviction that a woman's uterus is somehow your business.
"I firmly believe we all have a purpose and it is up to each of us to realize that purpose. You're seeing my purpose in action right in front of you."
Oh.
""You can honestly say abortion is not a problem?""
"Yes."
Free will in action, I can honestly say that abortion is a problem! How can we believe complete opposite things? Does this not prove that we actually have free will to believe what we want to believe? If you agree that we have free will then our bodies and minds could not have possibly come from a spontaneous explosion 13.7 billion years ago that came from nothing or even from a singularity for if this were actually true then our free will would be an illusion made possible by all the possible reactions of all the quarks/atoms that comprise us. You can choose to believe your free will is an illusion, I however choose to believe it is not an illusion.
"As many as 50% of all pregnancies end up in spontaneous abortion (miscarriage). Guess that's part of your gawd's plan, making your gawd a damned active abortionist. If your line of thinking were actually rational, then this is a far, far greater tragedy."
I believe God has a purpose for every human life including the fetuses that are miscarried do to natural causes. I don't believe God wants us to play god by aborting however many fetus we choose to.
"1. Look up Argument from Personal Incredulity Fallacy."
The Argument from Personal Incredulity Fallacy can be applied to what I'm saying simply because you're failing to understand that when you get to the bottom of reason you must either believe in absolutes or not believe in absolutes and not believing in absolutes leads to irrational thinking.
"2. You're thankful I wasn't aborted? Would you be so if in five minutes I committed mass murder?"
I believe God's absolute judgement would judge you if you chose to do such a horrible thing.
"3. There are many, many, many people who are thankful abortion is possible. I'm particularly thankful it is no longer completely illegal in the U.S. since that enables safe abortion which keeps the LIVING alive."
Your not looking deep enough to see the root of the problem.
*EDIT* This was for The Pragmatic:
Yea, you're not a misanthrope. To me you seem to care too much about others to be branded with the moniker. I care about some specific persons, but I dislike people in general: I don't like company; I find people's problems unimportant, boring and annoying; I don't see much good in humanity; I think the world would be just fine without us.
But hey, we're here, might as well mess around and do some stuff while we're alive.
I think you're a closet optimist.
: )
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