The theory of a god leaves a lot to be desired. We have all debated the validity of a god, especially the christian god (Abrahamic god).
In every debate, the theist has tried to fill the "god gaps" unsuccessfully. The ideas of Intelligent design, faith, and other explanations have never spanned these gaps.Merely reversing the onus(burden of proof) upon the nonbelievers isn't responsible nor logical. Also, just because a scientific theory isn't fully proved doesn't mean that the god theory is proved. Essentially to prove a god you must fill these gaps. You must have empirical testable proof of a god, AND you must have the same type of evidence that this god actually created and is control of everything. These are gaps that have never been and will never be crossed. Thus the christian world's "leap of faith." Faith is an excuse for not having valid proof. Thus the dilemma of christians and people of religious faith. If you believe in a god and you want anyone that does not believe in your god to believe in your god, you must bridge these gaps otherwise every argument that you present is moot.
Now I have seen all manner of attempts to evade or explain away these gaps. They are as covert as a Navy Seal rescue mission. "Consciousness" is an argument presented to get you to believe in a soul and therefore accept a god. NDEs are much about the same thing. Testimony is a practice of deferred authority and not valid as proof. Histrionics or revisionist history is also an attempt to gain credibility. As CyberLn usually points out "word salad" usually accompanies these explanations, not proof.
The "How can you..." argument isn't valid either. Like How can you be moral without a god to give you morality? The fact is you have to prove a god, then you have to prove that morality comes from that god.
The attempts are endless and actually pretty creative, but they all boil down to the fact the gap is never ever bridged.
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Not to bring down the party or anything, but haven't we swung this old song and dance before?
"Not to bring down the party or anything, but haven't we swung this old song and dance before?"
Yep we sure have, For about 2000 years.
""Men who irrationally assent to anything, resemble those who are delighted with jugglers and enchanters, &c. For as most of these are depraved characters, who deceive the vulgar, and persuade them to assent to whatever they please, this also takes place with the Christians. Some of these are not willing either to give or receive a reason for what they believe; but are accustomed to say, 'Do not investigate, but believe, your faith will save you."
Written by Celsus who lived 14 BCE to 50BCE, a witness and critic of the early christians.
I read it too fast... I thought the title was God gas... and that title was a must read for me
Yep! Just playing along and rehashing the rehashed. I guess that is what we supposed to do here from now on!
The strongest argument in favor of God is simple.
Consciousness precedes algorithms/instruction sequences.
To disprove this statement, you must show me an example of an algorithm/instruction sequence generating itself without being directly or indirectly influenced by a consciousness in any way what-so-ever.
Since the logic and the order of the universe allegedly generated itself independent of a consciousness—we should be able to search through the universe and find examples of algorithms writing themselves everywhere, correct?
Of course, you won't be able to prove that an algorithm can write itself—because it simply isn't possible.
If you're interested in learning more about these concepts that I'm speaking about, checkout, seventhseal.co
@Rion Yawn the Lion
No, I don't. I didn't make up a god. You are trying 2 of the old standbys that don't work.
1) You are shirking the responsibility of producing proof of YOUR FUCKING CLAIM by demanding us to disprove your god.
2) And you are saying that everything is organized and that supposedly proves a god organized it!
a) The universe is chaotic, NOT organized.
b) Even if the universe was organized, it still doesn't prove a god.
3) Self-promotion is a violation of the Forum guidelines so get lost you arrogant asshole.
I forgot one sort of drive by poster...the one that has some woo woo theory and irrefutable proof of the answer, the secret and all of the universe...oh did I say wants to sell their books? No? Well that's why they come here; to sell their books.
@ Ryan
Sigh...lovely words, no meaning, without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Oh, your book is not evidence..
Hey, Rion! (Cute little kitty cat. Awww.... So adorable at that age.) Just so you know, you could prove what I ate for breakfast with math easier than you could prove God with math. I mean, at least I am real, and I DID eat breakfast. Just sayin'..... (Oh, I just wanna CUDDLE with 'im.)
@RIon: "algorithms/instruction sequences"
What algorithms/instruction sequences are you talking about?
Repost accident
@Aposteriori Unum
*applause* * wild applause* *standing ovation*
Between you and TM and Mykcob I think our 'lyin lion' will go off and lick wounds. Maybe try some simpler marks.
Forgive my floccinaucinihilipilification, but if you're an apologist then this argument is about as valuable to your toolbox as lead is to a balloon.
This is right up there with the transcendental argument; numbers are real things therefore god (yes that was a strawman)
What does the existence of algorithms have to do with god? Do you define god as a mathematician? We know those exist.
"Since the logic and the order of the universe allegedly generated itself independent of a consciousness—we should be able to search through the universe and find examples of algorithms writing themselves everywhere, correct?"
Speaking of logic... How does it follow that if the "order of" (whatever that means) universe came to be without the aid of a consciousness that we should see algorithms writing themselves?
Hey, and the universe isn't an algorithm. It's a place filled with stuff and empty space.
The laws of nature necessarily causes an "algorithm/instruction sequence". They wouldn't be the laws of nature otherwise.
"The strongest argument in favor of God is simple. Consciousness precedes algorithms/instruction sequences.To disprove this statement, you must show me an example of an algorithm/instruction sequence generating itself without being directly or indirectly influenced by a consciousness in any way what-so-ever."
That's a very specific use of the god of the gaps argument, deliberate? It's argumentum ad ignorantiam. You could replace the word god with pixies, how would it be any less valid and why?
No shit Old man I forget about these assholes as well!
You are so arrogant, You think you have all the answers while your conviction that atheism is the right position to take in reference to a GOD is a minority position most people of the world believe in a GOD so get USED to IT. Who are you trying to impress here? Your post lack substance.
@AB
Are you talking to me?
I suggest AB that you trot off to the website and buy the fabulous 38 pages of pdf 'woo'. A bargain at only $5.99. It will do you better than frothing at the mouth and posting twaddle here. Don't forget your credit card!!
The evidence for god is immaterial.
"You are so arrogant, You think you have all the answers"
>>Irony overload
"while your conviction that atheism is the right position to take in reference to a GOD"
>>That makes no sense, you need to look up atheism in a dictionary. It's the position one takes when one doesn't believe a deity exists.
" is a minority position most people of the world believe in a GOD so get USED to IT."
>>Argumentum ad populum, yet another common logical fallacy, and the vast majority don't believe in your deity so get used to that.
"Your post lack substance."
>>Another irony overload.
Okay AB, I'm going to assume you meant me.
I'm not arrogant, I'm confident. I know what I know. I make a hobby of knowing. I have a code of believing true things. I know myself. Myself and I have not been apart since I was born.
I've re-evaluated and changed and refined my position on a great many things in my life so that my internal model of reality matches the actual reality as closely as possible. I've studied and thought long hours about a great many things. I've strived to weed out imperfections in my thinking and gaps of knowledge such that the bullshit stacks up to less than one part per million. When I walk into a room and someone is talking nonsense... If I know better and I disagree there is better than a good goddamn chance I know what I'm talking about. If I don't know about it I say nothing.
You talk out of your ass and you try to condescend to those who are clearly more knowledgeable than yourself. You don't re-evaluate your position, indeed, you don't consider positions contrary to your own. Religion seems to have corrupted your mind so much that you can't seem to help yourself. Your argument from popularity is just that, a logical fallacy... Why? Because even if everyone believed that the sun revolved around the earth it would not make it so. Consensus does not truth make. Somewhere inside you you must have some serious cognitive dissonance. You should be ashamed at how you portray yourself to people. You believe things that are either not evidently true or evidently not true. Your indoctrination and your rampant imagination plus your inability to admit a fault (pride) doesn't allow you to admit it. And you make accusations of arrogance?
Well here's the definition of arrogance:
arrogance
[ar-uh-guh ns]
noun
offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride.
The irony is fucking thick isn't it?
Next time you talk to me you better have either something really fucking profound to say... or an apology.
Have you ever tried to think for yourself? Once?
Aposteriori Unam: I just simply been saying that there once was a individual in Jesus Christ; All current scholarship allows for this. Both Conservative and Liberal Scholars .Even Bart Ehrman allows for Jesus life. I went on to state and in my attachments that there were early testimonies of this Jesus. To where today there are some 2.1 billion Christians estimated .I am an agnostic but I allow for the truth also. So I`m not going to be stubborn here just because I`m agnostic and not allow for the truth just to hold to my preference of agnosticism. I have to deal with the truth here I know that doesn`t go over well with some from the atheist community. But I have what I believe are the facts here. And regardless if you like me or my post or not that`s what you get. The truth.
"And regardless if you like me or my post or not that`s what you get. The truth". I'll just let that hang here....
The truth is we don't know. We don't know if he was real or not. He might very well have been. And I don't think we'll ever know.
"I don't know "is as true as it gets. That's the agnostic position.
Agnostic Believer: "most people of the world believe in a GOD"
That's true. But have you ever counted and compared all the DIFFERENT gods that people believe in? The Jews, Muslims and Christians share one, but the Hindus have over 30, and the Japanese claim to have 10,000.
How do you decide which ones are real? By the number of believers?
Re: Rion The Lion
Awww.... Lion cubs are sooooo cute when they bow up their little backs and meow like that. Aww... Who's da good kitty-cat? Goochie-goochie-gooo.... Who's da good kitty?
What a joke! I just checked out "seventhseal.com" and the domain name is for sale. If you google seventhseal.com, it directs you to Domainhub!
This asshole Rion is a fraud!
@Myk Re: "This asshole Rion is a fraud!"
Whaaaat????.... Noooooo...! Aw, gee. And I had such high hopes for the little rascal. Shucks, phooey, and other vulgarities.
@Myk
Hey, Mike, I think dear little Rion realized he jumped into the wrong lion's den. Whoopsieee...
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