God of the Bible has to exist in order for us to account for objective

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MilessaIn's picture
God of the Bible has to exist in order for us to account for objective

I guarantee you nobody can come up with a any decent points to counter my points. ha

1) Atheists say we as a society collectively determine our morals. And that they can sometimes change or evolve. So what happens if the larger majority of our collective society decide tomorrow that rape is morally acceptable because it propagates reproduction and therefore our species will grow and be stronger? Obviously this is hypothetical but I'm saying this to say that your, the atheists explanation is totally arbitrary.

2) Atheists always sound like they are evolutionists. But the foundation of the evolutionary theory is that "nature selects the strongest and the weak don't survive" so according to this worldview Hitler was right in trying to exterminate the Jews because he perceived that his race was the strongest and it is therefore his evolutionary prerogative to weed out the weak.
That's the one of the foundational principles of evolution but yet you are not saying that when it comes to morality. Instead you say that nurturing and caring for the weak is how the species survive? Sounds a bit contradictory to me.

3) Atheists often quote Professor Larry Arnhart, he says that morality is basically social norms :

> "Evolution has produced the requisites for morality: a tendency to develop social norms and enforce them, the capacities of empathy and sympathy, mutual aid and a sense of fairness, the mechanisms of conflict resolution, and so on. Evolution has also produced the unalterable needs and desires of our species: the need of the young for care, a desire for high status, the need to belong to a group, and so forth." (Arnhart)

But some societies have norms that we would find deplorable. Cultures that still practice female mutilation, child sacrifice, and child rape. We would condemn that as evil but certain cultures see these behaviors as acceptable. My question to you would be who's right? Us or them? It sounds like according to your belief system if it's a social norm and culturally acceptable then it's ok?

What I'm getting at is:
A) Morality cannot just be a chemical reaction in our brain because if that were the case then we couldn't condemn any act of evil as wrong seeing that the perpetrator was just following a chemical reaction in his or her brain.

and

B) Morality cannot be just a set of social norms because there are cultures and societies with different norms. How do we know who ultimately has the "right" norm?

Solution:

See in the Christian Biblical worldview that answer is easy. Which norm is closer to Gods nature? That's the one that is ultimately right. How do we know Gods nature? We are created in his image so it is innate in us but not through evolution. Evolution if examined internally has no need for morality. Cats kill mice all the time without being condemned because that's what the stronger species is supposed to do on an evolutionary worldview.

And to be clear I never stated that you had to believe in the God of the Bible in order to behave morally. But what I said was the God of the Bible has to exist in order for us to account for objective moral values. Without the Christian God all we would have is subjective morality. You make the rules. Do as you see fit. Or as your chemical brain reaction tells you to behave. But we could not live that way.

Atheist and evolutionist alike depend on the Christian worldview to make sense of morality cogently. Without the Christian Biblical God one can only arbitrarily account for morality wit conjecture and personal opinion.

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biggus dickus's picture
Let me ask you something

Let me ask you something where would you rather live? in god fearing Syria or atheist Netherlands. Also why the god of the bible?, why not Thor or Allah?

MilessaIn's picture
You are dissociating what

You are dissociating what paradise is. Besides syria is not Christian. Heaven is not the same as Syria despite your attempt at such.

The God of the bible is the God people worship just people have different stories to present him.

I notices you never counter my points you are going off topic a bit... typical atheists.. always the one liners with no substance or citations.

biggus dickus's picture
The god of the bible is a

The god of the bible is a self contradictory concept. Most of the world have a universal religion its called humanism or the worship of humans. according to orthodox humanism actions should be judged on the pleasure of the individual. there is also socialist humanism who states actions should be judged on the benefit of society and there is also evolutionary humanism whose best contributor
were the Nazis. You are right that humanism has its problems like medieval piety vs chivalry which were the modern equivalent of freedom vs equality.

LogicFTW's picture
@uberdem:

@uberdem:

Oh yay, another "morality proves god" argument. Can't you theist guys at least be original? You do realize every other religious follower with their own particular god uses this argument too right?

Your entire argument is based on a confusing word game. Changing the definitions of words to suit your particular argument.

Also which bible do you refer too? There are many of them, all with variations of different opinions.

I wrote a bible a little while back on these boards, it is only a paragraph long and it has just as strong arguments for my god, "the flying spaghetti monster" that your bible has for yours including this silly "morality proves my god" word game.

SBMontero's picture
@Uberdem: hahhahahhaa It's

@Uberdem: hahhahahhaa It's good that a believer talk about atheists going off the limelight, when all they do is quote the bible as if it were not a book of fiction.

Sky Pilot's picture
Humans decide on what's moral

Humans decide on what's moral within their own limited societies. A group can change its opinion at any time. Pick any behavior and I can give you an example.

MilessaIn's picture
So in your worldview rape

So in your worldview rape would be acceptable?

Sky Pilot's picture
Moses thought rape was

Moses thought rape was perfectly fine. He was a big fan of baby rape. The Jewish Babylonian Talmud says that it's OK to have sex with kids who are three years and a day old. The age of consent was seven in America in 1895, just 121 years ago. And before that it was even lower, especially during slavery times. Actually there was no age of consent on the slave plantations, it was just rape.

SBMontero's picture
@Uberdem: hahhahahhhahahaa

@Uberdem: hahhahahhhahahaa Have you read the Leviticus of your bible??? Is it a joke???

MilessaIn's picture
Typical atheist not

Typical atheist not intelligent enough to remember what you read....

I REPEAT: "And to be clear I never stated that you had to believe in the God of the Bible in order to behave morally. But what I said was the God of the Bible has to exist in order for us to account for objective moral values. Without the Christian God all we would have is subjective morality.

We are created in his image so it is innate in us but not through evolution."

Point is we still have morals given to us by god innately because we are created in his image and the bible is irrelevant for objective morality.

Sky Pilot's picture
Uberdem,

Uberdem,

An earthworm has better morals than the biblical God creature.

SBMontero's picture
@Uberdem: First, that works

@Uberdem: First, that works as long as gods, or god exists, I'm sorry, it's not the case.
Second, What the fuck does that have to do with rape, murder, genocide being well-regarded in your Bible? And repeat @John, Have you read the Leviticus?
Third, the evolutionary fact isn't anything debatable, it happens, we all know it, we all see it, not even the Vatican does it, only the ignorant idiots do it, Are you idiot? (I repeat, serious question).
Fourth, if god doesn't exist there's anything innate in us that it has given us. Assume it. Although... as I always say you, if you have any proof of its existence, or the existence of Jesus, which isn't anything written in your book of fiction, go ahead, expose. I'm all eyes.

Cookies monster bless you.

algebe's picture
@Uberdem: "So in your

@Uberdem: "So in your worldview rape would be acceptable?"

Why are you Xtians so obsessed with rape? Every time an Xtian spouts this pathetic "morality = god" idea, the crime of choice is rape. Why not burglary or mugging or identity theft?

algebe's picture
Uberdem: "the larger majority

Uberdem: "the larger majority of our collective society decide tomorrow that rape is morally acceptable "

1, Do you think that society is something that evolves separately from the people who comprise it? We shape society, and society shapes us. It's circular. If enough people highlight an evil, other people start to think about it, and eventually society turns against that evil. Did you not notice that modern Western societies universally condemn and outlaw hideous religious practices like genital mutilation? The society I live in is also very upset about sexual abuse of children by clergy in just about every Christian denomination. People are increasingly turning away from religion as a result. That's how society works.

What sad people you Christians must be to look inside yourselves and see slavering feral homicidal rapists restrained only by fear of your sky fairy. Truly you are made in the image of your imaginary friend. I pity you, but I don't want you anywhere near my family.

2. Hitler perverted the ideas of Darwin, and in any case his master race theory ended in total failure. Your understanding of evolution is shallow. Ever heard of symbiosis? Human evolution is especially complex. A tribe that killed all its weak members wouldn't necessarily prosper in the long-term. Weak or strong, people play all kinds of subtle roles in communities. People have known that for a long time. Societies that deliberately weeded out and destroyed the weak were rare enough to be noteworthy in history. The Spartans are one example.

What objective moral values does your cult offer? Who best represents those values? Is it the money-grubbing televangelist extracting money from the weak-minded to pay for executive jets and prostitutes? Or perhaps it's the Westboro Baptist Church with its vicious "god hates fags" message. Surely the Christian Crusaders of the middle ages were paragons of Christian virtue. But wait. The Pope told them that god would forgive any sin, however horrible, that was committed on a crusade. Their sins included rape, mass-murder and cannibalism.

Morality is a mixture of our innate instincts as primates, and our experiences in our families and society. Every individual helps to shape those morals, and every individual is shaped by them. Religion is redundant. Look at the history of societies controled by religions and tell me which one had acceptable morality?

Sky Pilot's picture
Killing the weak and injured

Killing the weak and injured might be acceptable under certain conditions. For instance, if the group can barely survive in a hostile environment it will expend all of its energy trying to meet its basic needs of food, shelter, and security. Anyone who can't contribute to that is a burden, although people will try to care for their young even in desperate conditions. However, in the Bible some people ate their children when times got tough.

Once the group's basic needs are ensured it will be more willing to expend energy and resources on caring for the sick and helpless. That's how medical advances came about. In primitive societies even today they haven't developed any real medical systems because they still have to expend all of their energy on satisfying basic needs.

algebe's picture
@Diotrephes: "Killing the

@Diotrephes: "Killing the weak and injured might be acceptable under certain conditions"

And yet there are Neanderthal skeletons showing signs of injuries that had been treated and healed, including injuries that would have rendered the victim unable to hunt or gather food for himself for a period. I think the caring instinct runs pretty deep in humans. It certainly predates the invention of gods by a very long time.
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/neanderthals-article/

Sky Pilot's picture
Algebe,

Algebe,

Neanderthals were very religious. But some were cannibals.

The Bible has several stories of people eating their babies when times got tough.

In some African societies today the family or greater society will kick young kids out to fend for themselves by claiming that the kids are witches. They don't have any safety nets. In primitive societies people are goners if they can't pull their own weight. Even Paul preached that in the New Testament.

algebe's picture
@Diotrephes "Neanderthals

@Diotrephes "Neanderthals were very religious. But some were cannibals."

[LOL] They sound just like the Crusaders.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Uberdem - the God of the

Uberdem - the God of the Bible has to exist in order for us to account for objective moral values.

By asking us to account for X, you are presenting the hidden postulate that X exists.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Uberdem - Without the Christian God all we would have is subjective morality.

You know, I'm so tired of religious nuts claiming their morality is objective. Instead of arguing with them; let's start giving them hard moral questions then compare their answers. They say their non-sense is objective; let's see how objective it really is.

chimp3's picture
All religious arguments for

All religious arguments for morality are human arguments. They are simply embellished with false authorship. The Ten Commandments, the Parables, the Sermon on the Mount are all human creations. They do not become "objective" by claiming they are written by god.
The fact that theists must make an argument for the "objectivity" of their moral basis proves that all moral principles must be argued for if we are to accept them as part of a civil society.
Any atheist can choose from any theistic moral lesson and argue for or against. I personally think the Good Samaritan holds a value. Good human moral reasoning contained in that tale.

Sky Pilot's picture
chimp3,

chimp3,

There's nothing about being kind and charitable in the Ten Commandments, Exodus 34:10-28.

CyberLN's picture
Why does a gawd writing rules

Why does a gawd writing rules necessarily make those rules objective?

chimp3's picture
Good question CyberLn!

Good question CyberLn! Morality deals with how we make choices. Gawd's rules demand obedience. There is no free will in obedience.
The Euthyphro dilemma rears its pretty little head one again!

xenoview's picture
@Uberdem

@Uberdem
Why do you seem to think rape is okay in any worldview? Why did you pick Hitler, why no the popes that called for the crusades of the middle ages? The popes called for mass murder, just as their god commanded and committed. Your god was fine with his followers having young girls as sex slaves. My morales come from me treating people how I want to be treated. Uberdem, why do the religious states of America have the highest divorce rates, and murder? Why do so many christians break their gods commandments?

Pitar's picture
To call an apple an orange

To call an apple an orange you first have to rob the orange of its peel. Then you have to convincingly clothe the apple in the orange peel ensuring no visual indication is left that might reveal the deception.

Theists have been robbing man of his innate traits all along the theological time line and attributing them to another imagined entity in an attempt to make a credible connection between their imagination (god) and reality (man).

Me thinks the OP has made yet another attempt at the grand delusion.

SBMontero's picture
@Uberdem: First, your society

@Uberdem: First, your society, yours, determined that to stone a woman for being raped was to restore the honor of her husband, father and brothers and wrote it in your Bible, read Leviticus. Your society, yours, ruled that burning people at the stake to tell the truth, or because they were women and healing people with herbs, was to fulfill the law of your god.
Second, there is NO evolutionary theory, evolution is a fact and evolutionary fact isn't even discussed by the Vatican, it's only discussed by ignorant idiots. You are an idiot? (Serious question). And it doesn't matter exactly how it sounds to you. Evolution is NOT a vision, and Hitler was a disgusting racist, like the ultracristian white supremacists, those who advocate teaching creationism in schools.
Third, NO, Larry Arnhart defends social Darwinism, which is a solemn stupidity, as is neoliberalism. The moral basis is biological, moral rules are cultural and as social norms change according to the culture and society we analyze.

NO, you're not getting anything.

A) Good and evil are concepts that change according to the culture and society to which you ask. The moral bases are biological and revolve on three pivots: No murder, no incest and no cannibalism. Although these pivots will vary if circumstances become sufficiently extreme: Killing if it's necessary to survive, or defend the people nearby; incest if extreme isolation occurs; And cannibalism if extreme hunger is suffered. There have even been societies in which, if these extreme circumstances reproduce for long enough time, the violation of these biological moral standards become normal.
B) Moral norms are cultural and not, there are no right and wrong standards, there are human norms of culturally evolved societies and human norms of culturally unevolved societies, eg Canada, Sweden, or Denmark, and United Arab Emirates, Yemen, Sudan And North Korea... I usually do this by differentiating between countries where the death penalty is illegal and those where it still is.

Sorry, dude, god doesn't exist and the bible was written by Greeks in the 3rd century, there're better books written much earlier... and much later, I advise you the Silmarillion.

Ah, and I'm atheist, I don't depend on any religious worldview for absolutely nothing and your god is one more of so many invented.

The Green Lantern Corps bless you.

Harry33Truman's picture
Alas most people's moral code

Alas most people's moral code is based on whatever society decides- and the strong do live while the weak do perish, it doesn't mean it is right, but it is reality, so get over it. Also, if whatever is closer to God's nature is right, then that would mean murder and rape are OK because God said so. The same logic could be used against you, what if tomorrow God decides rape is OK?

mykcob4's picture
@Uberdem

@Uberdem

You said "God of the Bible has to exist in order for us to account for objective"
Well, that is flat out wrong. First, you have to produce a god, which no one ever has. Second, you have to confirm that the bible is a fact which no one ever has."

You said "1) Atheists say we as a society collectively determine our morals. And that they can sometimes change or evolve. So what happens if the larger majority of our collective society decide tomorrow that rape is morally acceptable because it propagates reproduction and therefore our species will grow and be stronger? Obviously this is hypothetical but I'm saying this to say that your, the atheists explanation is totally arbitrary." Which atheists? Besides Morals are dynamic and created by the society that lives within said morality. I put it to you that the Spartans decided that babies with defects would be cast off of cliffs and to them at that time it was moral. There is nothing arbitrary about society dictating morals. It is simply the fact and the historical record.

You said "2) Atheists always sound like they are evolutionists. But the foundation of the evolutionary theory is that "nature selects the strongest and the weak don't survive" so according to this worldview Hitler was right in trying to exterminate the Jews because he perceived that his race was the strongest and it is therefore his evolutionary prerogative to weed out the weak.
That's the one of the foundational principles of evolution but yet you are not saying that when it comes to morality. Instead you say that nurturing and caring for the weak is how the species survive? Sounds a bit contradictory to me." Again, which atheists? And that is not the basis of evolution not even close. You based your whole argument on a false assumption. Your account about Hitler is also incorrect.

You said "3) Atheists often quote Professor Larry Arnhart, he says that morality is basically social norms :"
Again which atheists. In my opinion (and the facts overwhelmingly back me up) He is right! But alas, That is not what Professor Arnhart said. He said that "ethics is rooted in human nature." cited from 'Darwinian Natural Right' So again you based your argument on a falsehood.
The rest of your post is gibberish. there is no "God's nature". you have to produce a god first. And you can't say that your morality is the right one.
1) Because it isn't right for all people at all times and everywhere. I actually don't think christianity is moral at all. Brainwashing children, in my opinion, is immoral and actually a crime. Genocide, slavery, propagating disease by suppressing knowledge and science are all societal norms of christianity.
2) What gives you the fucking right to say any society is wrong? (rhetorical question no need to answer.) The fact is that morality comes from the society that lives within that society. It changes over time.
Your whole claim is properly and successfully refuted. Like all christian nutcases, you base your arguments on assumptions, the biggest being that there is a god. You never prove shit. You just make wild fucking claims that are unsupported, and incorrect.

algebe's picture
Yet another drive-by

Yet another drive-by apologist without the guts to stay and defend his folly. A real credit to Sky-Daddy and Sonny Boy.

I wish they'd read Darwin before they defame him. The foundation of Darwin's evolutionary theory is survival of the fittest, not the strongest. "Fittest" means the best adapted to the prevailing environment. Depending on the environment at a given time and place, that could be the strongest, the fastest, the best able to endure heat or cold, or in the case of primates, the best at forming and maintaining close-knit social groups.

SBMontero's picture
@Algebe: One of the things

@Algebe: One of the things that made me laugh in the conferences, when someone rises to take their diatribe about creationism and against the evolutionary fact, is to ask them why we are omnivorous and see their faces. Most don't know what omnivore means, and the minority who knows has no idea what it has to do with what they're saying.

Read what @Uberdem wrote is like seeing a six-year-old child trying to explain string theory singing my tailor is rich.

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